I believe refreshing the SoV stack counts as an extra melee strike (in effect doubling our bang for the buck) since it is a parryable/dodgeable event. If possible, could you run a few tests for us?
SoV's refresh is a melee strike, and helps Paladins have high uptime on Berserking and Mongoose, and other such PPM enchants.
Seeing more logs are is still useful, but I am convinced Bryntroll procs more for Paladin with SoV compared to DK or Warrior. If Shadowmourne's 40 strength stacking buff also procs from melee strikes, then that may cover the DK better % scaling gap.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
It appears correct that it uses spellhit (and can miss entirely), is partially resisted, and cannot crit. Looks like Vengeance, Crusade, Sanctified Ret, and Curse of Elements (or their equivalents) should affect damage.
For Omgitsbeta I get 223 qualifying attacks (Melee, Judge, CS, DS) and 56 life drains. That's 25.1%.
If Seal hits can proc that's 417 qualifying and 13.4%.
Morrigan had 224 qualifying attacks (Melee, Scourge Strike, Blood Strike, Plague Strike, Blood-Caked Strike) and 40 drains. That's 17.8%.
Someone let me know if I'm wrong on the numbers above.
This could be wildly wrong - sample size is small. It is merely a first guess based on available data.
Based on the small sample size it looks (to me) likely around a 15% proc rate using the seal-hit-has-a-chance and DK numbers. Internal cooldown is easily disproved by 2 procs under a second, which occurs early in the log. I didn't spot what appeared to be a "double proc", so cannot 100% determine if seal-hit can indeed proc (all the close procs were ability + melee in close temporal proximity).
I'd love Glutton's test to be run, even just with SoV - any occurrance of two procs from a single melee attack would prove the seal-hit could proc.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
How are you counting DS? Based on the logs, DS never proced a Drain Life on a Blood Beast (adds that spawn during the Deathbringer encounter). You may have to subtract 19 DSes on Blood Beasts from the total abilities that proc Drain Life. From what I can tell Deathbringer was Omg's target the entire encounter.
It appears correct that it uses spellhit (and can miss entirely), is partially resisted, and cannot crit. Looks like Vengeance, Crusade, Sanctified Ret, and Curse of Elements (or their equivalents) should affect damage.
For Omgitsbeta I get 223 qualifying attacks (Melee, Judge, CS, DS) and 56 life drains. That's 25.1%.
If Seal hits can proc that's 417 qualifying and 13.4%.
SoV hits don't count as melee strikes, however the Blood Corruption/Holy Vengeance stacks count (102 of those). So Beta had 325 melee strikes, or a 17.2% chance to proc.
Originally Posted by Glutton
How are you counting DS? Based on the logs, DS never proced a Drain Life on a Blood Beast (adds that spawn during the Deathbringer encounter). You may have to subtract 19 DSes on Blood Beasts from the total abilities that proc Drain Life. From what I can tell Deathbringer was Omg's target the entire encounter.
You may know, but for the general public Blood Beasts are taking 75% to our AoE (SoC, DS, and Cons) and it seems DS's AoE hits don't count as melee strikes.
E: Getting bosses confused, they take 75% less.
Last edited by frmorrison : 12/04/09 at 6:35 PM.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
My guess is that the AOE physical hits on mobs other than the player's target cannot proc Drain Life. By my count 18 Divine Storms were AOE on Blood Beasts. 1 Divine Storm on a Blood Beast appears to be the primary target (therefore 1 of the Divine Storms on Deathbringer was an AOE).
Using SoV refreshes as a procable event:
Melee: 114
SoV refresh: 114
Crusader Strike 57
Judgement: 30
Divine Storm (non AOE): 25
Hammer of Wrath: 5
Total procable attacks: 345
16.23% proc rate.
I have a suspicion that Drain Life can proc on itself given the amount of double procs (4 for the Paladin and 1 for the DK) and triple procs (1 for the DK) in the same milisecond. I'm not sure what would be the best way to disprove this relatively rare possibility. I suppose a Paladin could face away from a target dummy and use use Judgement until they fall asleep.
Ran some dummy tests with the proc on the PTR and it appears that the melee attack portion of applying SoV/C is procing Drain Life, and the proc rate appears to be in the 15% area.
I will leave the autoattack alone running for a few hours to see if we can get an accurate proc rate estimation.
I have a suspicion that Drain Life can proc on itself given the amount of double procs (4 for the Paladin and 1 for the DK) and triple procs (1 for the DK) in the same milisecond. I'm not sure what would be the best way to disprove this relatively rare possibility. I suppose a Paladin could face away from a target dummy and use use Judgement until they fall asleep.
I'm going to have to disagree with the ability for Drain Life to proc off of itself. Using the Log Browser, I found zero instances of Morr�*gan double/triple-proc'ing on Saurfang, only on the Blood Beasts. There was 3 instances of Beta double-proc'ing on Saurfang. Due to Beta having zero procs on Blood Beasts, we can assume Consecration definitely doesn't proc it (duh). It is possible DS procs it and it just didn't happen, but the chances of that are astronomically low.
It does seem it acts funky with some AoE ability of DKs though, as the double/triple procs were on the Blood Beasts.
This 6 second snapshot is all the proof I need of the application/refreshing of Holy Vengeance/Blood Corruption being able to proc Bryn'troll.
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (Remove the current query, then add a new one, check the "Hit" box and make the source "Omgitsbeta" save it then run it.)
No attacks that we assume proc it landed within 2 seconds of the double proc, and you can assume the time inbetween the melee (and therefore HV application) and both the SoV proc and 2x Drain Life procs are the result of the server performing the necessary checks and relays from the successfully performed Melee attack. Both Seal of Vengeance and 2xDrain Life landed .328 seconds after the melee/HV.
In Rawr if you model the proc as 2250 shadow damage, 15% chance on Physical Hit then Bryntroll will be a ~260 DPS upgrade over an ilvl 258 Dual-Bladed Butcher. Quite impressive for a drop from the first boss of the zone.
In Rawr if you model the proc as 2250 shadow damage, 15% chance on Physical Hit then Bryntroll will be a ~260 DPS upgrade over an ilvl 258 Dual-Bladed Butcher. Quite impressive for a drop from the first boss of the zone.
That is a very conservative damage number as well, I am seeing on the dummies an average just under 2400 over these tests, on a fully debuffed raid boss we will see an average of closer to 2700-2800. This is a very nice weapon indeed.
Here is hoping Shadowmournes proc works in a similar fashion to Bryn'trolls.
Four and a half hours auto attacking a dummy to try to nail down the proc rate.
Pretty much right at 12% over 5300 attacks, will run it again tomorrow or Sunday with SoV up (mainly just to double the proc chances for better numbers) see if it stays consistent.
My current modeling shows in my gear Bryntroll is 2nd best of the currently-known-on-MMO-champ weapons (first is Shadowmourne, even without the stacking Str and proc modeled). I'd get around a 600 DPS increase over my 245 Justicebringer.
With my raid haste it should proc on average every 4.2 seconds for around the equivalent of a free 600-odd health per second.
It has Str and sockets - the proc more than balances the lack of crit/haste/armpen. I'm eagerly looking forward to seeing the Heroic version's stats... and rather expecting a nerf to proc rate when Blizzard realizes just how much it dishes out.
On the topic of modeling - I'll try to release a preliminary 3.3 version of the Bellator spreadsheet tonight. I input all equipment from MMO as of yesterday with the stats they displayed. Obviously it's nowhere near everything and will need regular updates.
Lots of changes in the 3.3 version of the spreadsheet. I hope those that use it like them.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
We know that the ilvl 277 Bryn's proc is an average of 2538 damage. If you bump the Bryn's other DPS stats to ilvl 277 (extra red socket, 182 STR, 322.9 wDPS), then I get it as coming out as 166 DPS below Shadowmourne without Shadowmourne's proc modeled. This is all heavy conjecture, but orange is still king.
Although I wouldn't be surprised however if the ilvl 284 DPS 2H from Arthas 25 HM is inferior to ilvl 277 Bryn on single target fights.
My current modeling shows in my gear Bryntroll is 2nd best of the currently-known-on-MMO-champ weapons (first is Shadowmourne, even without the stacking Str and proc modeled). I'd get around a 600 DPS increase over my 245 Justicebringer.
How much better is it compared to Shadow Edge? I would do the test myself, but I'm having problems to model the pric of Bryn correctly...
If our model of the proc is accurate, then the ilvl 264 Bryntroll is higher DPS than Shadow's Edge for single target encounters. In my current gear 264 Bryntroll would be 84 DPS better. However if you get into multi-target fights like Gunship and Dreamwalker, Shadow's Edge probably wins out because you won't be using SoV (a key part of Bryn's high DPS) and Drain Life does not scale with multiple targets.
Since 3.3 is live, please use the existing Retribution thread (it is updated to 3.3) to discuss current topics.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
12/04/09, 2:28 PM
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