Exemplar

This may be a more realistic comparison. 200 Str * 96% up-time = 192.

Time	T9	T9 Average	T10	T10 Average
0 sec	0 Str	0 Str	44 Str	44 Str
5	192	100	88	100
10	192	128	132	88
15	192	144	176	110
20	192	153.6	220	132
25	192	160	220	146.66
30	192	164.57	220	157.14
35	192	168	220	165
40	192	170.66	220	171.11

In short, T10 libram is probably last badge purchase to make (assuming it's badges). Compared to T9 which was first purchase.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

Kromix

Aside from the additional 20 str, this is probably the best part about the libram. Not only do you get significantly more AP from this when using a non-SoV seal (e.g. SoC in AoE situations w/ glad libram), but if your SoV stacks fall off (such as anub burrow), you can still keep up your buff by hitting a scarab with CS. You go from having to keep a SoV stack up to have to buff to having to attack a target once every 15 sec with a little more buildup. Seems well worth-it imo.

 

whistler-z

Are libram comparisons being done with the consideration in mind that during that ramp up time we're doing less damage in general, due to the ramp up time on SOV, so the extra STR from the T9 libram would have less of an impact during those ~20sec than a direct comparison would indicate?

 

Malleus

That's also assuming we won't need to use SoCom a lot. If there are multiple boss fights in ICC where use of SoCom is better for whatever reason, then the T10 Libram will still be a high priority - it'll just be a replacement for the PVP Libram only.

 

Exemplar

The comparisons do not involve ramp up time. However, ramp up time is closer to 11 seconds, not 20. Close to 2.7 swing speed is not uncommon in a raid, even for a 3.6 swing weapon. Especially if we wind up with more haste in T10.

It won't appreciably affect the comparison. 35 or 40 seconds still requires consistent time on target (any target) to be worthwhile. T9 libram buff can persist even during time off target - the last tick could refresh your buff for 16 sec. Meaning almost 30 seconds off target all while (potentially) buffed. T10 libram would drop after 15 seconds unless you had some secondary target to hit while you were away (such as adds in P2 Anub).

Northrend Beasts - worms - worst case scenario for T10 libram. Burrow would often lose buff, nothing to hit, start from scratch.

20 Str is nice, it's just not huge. Comparatively any other single upgrade is likely to be more advantageous. Expect more sockets on T10 gear (it's one of their scaling mechanics) - any socket is effectively 20 Str.

It's also possible they'll change these numbers. It could wind up 200 Str when stacked, 250 Str, or higher. PTR numbers can change.

Edit: Good point, Malleus. On imporant-to-kill-add fights where you use SoC it may be worth an early purchase. On fights where adds are common but burning the boss is more important, using SoV and Valiance is still better than inflating your DPS on meters via SoC and extra cleaves.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

Haelfdane

As far as the T10 libram buff dropping, there is a mechanic that's extremely similar now that you can compare with to get a good feel for what it will take to keep the buff up, and that's prot talented DP. The application is obviously different, and the penalty is having to restack where DP's penalty is making sure the 1min CD is available when you lose it, but the basic idea of planning for those 15 second intervals is the same. Anywhere a current prot is losing DP you'd most likely be losing the T10 libram stack. The big difference here is we don't yet know what the T10 content fights will be so we have no idea really what the net effect is and the chances of losing the stack mid-fight (and obviously this plays a huge role in how good the item is, just like FotFF dropped in usefullness after Nax level content), we can only tell what current content would be like with that libram.

 

• frmorrison

I have 99% certainly that the libram will be a badge purchase, since it was successful with ToC.

Like people have said, the new libram is the best for AoE (certainly there will be tons of trash) and the stacking number may be off. The DK and Enhance ones have a 3 stack versus 5 for Ret. Note there is a difference in the ability cooldown (DK and Shaman cast those abilities every 8 seconds) versus 4.5 for a Paladin.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

cannadrys

Actually it's quite easy to calculate what the break even point is when comparing the new libram to the current SoV libram.


The new libram has about a 18 second ramp up time when considering half second overlaps due to GDC being 1.5 seconds and lag as nobody has a 0 ping connection (one strike at the 0 mark, second at 4.5, etc..)

Which means we spend ~4.5 seconds at the following str levels:

44
88
132
176
And then persistent providing no drops
220

The average strength for the ramp (0-18 seconds) is the strength level multiplied by the duration spent, with each interval being summed up, divided by the total time ramping.

So:


44*4.5 + 88*4.5 + 132*4.5 + 176*4.5
------------------------------------
18

Which boils out to 110 strength average from 0-18seconds, 220 strength after that.


So To calculate how long it takes to make up that defecit and reach tbe break even point:

The average difference for the rampup is 200-110 = 90 str.
The gain after the ramp is 220-200 = 20 str

So it with be rampup str difference multiplied by ramp time, divided by gain after ramp

So:

90 * 18
-------
20


Which comes out to 81 seconds.

This is on top of the fact that the actual buff lasts longer and refreshes a lot more even on break form target as your SoV is still ticking. Think of a fight like HC northrend beasts, where you may not CS for 15 seconds because of the charget, but because your Vengeance/Corr stack is still ticking you still maintain the 200 str buff.


TLDR:
According to raw math, the new libram is better if you will be on target for roughly 80 seconds, and do not expect much downtime between targets

 

Exemplar

Numbers are currently off - first Crusader Strike is at time 0, not time 4.5. So time 0 has 44 Str. 4.5 has 88, 9 has 132, and 13.5 has 176. 13.5 seconds, not 20 seconds. My math shows this comparison about 60 seconds.

Also you are not taking into consideration the fact that the 200 Str buff has an established uptime of about 96% (very rarely it doesn't refresh within ticks 3 to 5). So your 200 Str is actually worth 192 Str.

This means:

The average difference for the rampup is 192-110 = 82 Str.
The gain after the ramp is 220-192 = 28 Str

82 * 13.5
-------
28

Effective time of equivalence: 39.53
This matches the rough timeline I've previously posted.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

Glutton

Wouldn't it be cool if Blizzard made the first boss of Icecrown have one minute long DPS windows interspersed between thirty seconds of an anti-melee ability? Oh wait. I don't think that they could have made a more Ret unfriendly boss. I suppose if you're feeling brave you can run in and give the boss a whack to refresh your SoV stack (or your new, shitty ramp time libram).

 

• frmorrison

MMO says that he emotes before he does the anti-melee attacks, so with boss mods it shouldn't be too bad. It seems the libram may need to be readjusted to 3 stacks if there times when you cannot melee.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Neraya

There's lots of bosses that have "stop dps" issues (noth, heigan, razorscale, XT heart phases, anub burrow phases...)
It's nothing new, and the fact all kinds of debuffs are dropping is part of the mechanic. It's not just us, locks loose their dots, mages loose scorch, warriors loose sunder, ...

It's part of how the fight works out, on fights like those, paladins tend to be lower on dps because of the ramp up times. The libram isn't really an issue here, if you know this kind of mechanic is happening, just use the valiance libram.

 

cnicus

After thumbing through these posts, a couple of interesting questions have come up for me. And please, bear with the slightly noobish content of these questions.

1) Will the t10 4piece stack with the SoR glyph? I've not seen this addressed anywhere, and if that is infact the case, then it might end up beneficial on some fights where you don't have the adequate time to build up the proper ramp up damage. Take Jaraxxus for the current state of raiding, where you're constantly bouncing back and forth between portals, sisters, boss, volcanoes, and infernals. Alot going on on that fight, and no where near enough time to build up the ramp up damage needed to optimize use of SoV, or it's corresponding libram. (Atleast not for me and the way my guild does the fight.)

2) I saw that someone placed a couple loose ideas of how the newer rotations will work out. It seems like J>CS>DS>Exo>Cons would work much better for the new content, since it is an undead instance once again. Judgement on the charge in, CS to start building your stacks with your new libram, and since the 4piece is set to reset the CD, should we loose gathering procs from trinkets/librams for the sake of trying to get that 4piece proc to hit off the start? It seems that it should take priority after the initial first two shots, but that's only after the first two.

 

• Zurm

1) We can't know for sure yet, but there's no reason to assume it won't. That being said, SoC is still superior for the vast majority of situations, so it's really a moot point.

2) This should be the rotation you are using right now. The proposed new rotation puts DS at the front.

I highly doubt this will happen. The 3 stacks for other classes are on typically on 8 second abilities, while ours is on a 4 second cooldown (effectively 4.5, but to blizzard it's tomato/tomahto). Be glad they didn't make it a 6 stack instead of 5. Don't write the new libram off though; it's still way better for SoC than the current batch of pvp librams.

 

Malleus

What numbers or gear are you using that put Exorcism ahead of Consecrate? I've just spent a bit of time tweaking the rotation in Rawr and regardless of how I set the delay/wait times, any time Exo moves off the bottom rung overall DPS falls.

 

• Zurm

That was a typo, exorcism is always last.

 

Redcape

I would like to make a request of any paladin who gets on the PTR with some time to test: Please find out what the t10 bonuses do specifically. I am finishing up the next version of my spreadsheet (Massive upgrades inc) and want to have the t10 bonuses properly modeled.

Namely:

Does the 10% bonus to seals/judgements apply to both the DOT and proc of SoV/Corr?

What attacks proc the 40% chance to refresh DS? Judgement? CS, DS? Seals?

Once I know these things I will make sure they are implemented in the next release, which should be out sometime in the next couple days to a week.

 

• frmorrison

I think it is safe to assume:

T10 only applies to Seal and Judgement hit but not SoV's DoT damage.

I tested the Metorite Whetstone, it procs off all melee attacks, so assuming it was coded the same, yes to all four melee attacks listed + auto.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Capstone

No point in making assumptions when you can test it empirically. Particularly when you want to build a theorycrafting tool based on said assumptions or results.

 

cnicus

It's the concept of fighting undead, with the 100% crit rate of exorcism against undead, combined with the glyph to make exorcism hit for over 8k.

 

Fatal

Hi, i have been a pretty avid reader of these forums for a while now, this is my first post however. I was wondering if Redcape would do me a solid and post his spread sheets and maybe give me a quick rundown of how exactly they work and such. I feel newbish enough askin for help with this but ive never actually done a spreadsheet on my toon and would apprieciate a little help/explaination of how it all works

 

Redcape

1. My spreadsheet is found in one of the topics in this forum with the words Redcape and Spreadsheet in the title. You can download it from the link provided.

2. My old sheet has nearly zero documentation, which will be remedied shortly. The explanations you seem to want are not appropriate to post here, and regardless they all appear in the next release going out this coming week. It will have a documentation page with advice for spreadsheet novices as well as comments on each section of the spreadsheet explaining how that section works and how to use it.

Also, there will be much improved support for OpenOffice and Mac users (macros are still used where they are necessary, but workarounds are arranged and explained) and the format is much cleaned up. In addition I added some extra data reporting to clarify AOE and single target damage contributions.

So, just wait for my 4.0 release and hopefully your questions will all be answered within the sheet itself.

 

Malleus

This is wrong. Using Glyph of Exo and setting Rawr parameters to mob type Undead, I get 8500 DPS with the rotation set to J-CS-DS-HoW-Cons-Exo. Swapping Exo and Cons causes a drop to 8386 DPS.

As Zurm said, Exo is always last.

 

Cloudshatter

Under the assumption that the enemy is within the consecrated area 100% of the time.

 

• Zurm

No, not really. Consecrate is MUCH better than exorcism. Even on an undead or demon mob, consecrate ticks for about 800 average (thats including partial/full resists, for me). Exorcism on a crit with resists factored in crits for about 7000. So comparison of DPS:

Consecration:
Effective CD: 12s
Effective Uptime: ~83%
Effective DPS: 664

Exorcism:
Effective CD: 19s
Effective DPS: 368

This is assuming 1 target, so for exorcism to beat consecrate, consecration would need to be less than 55% effective.