Once they take AP off leather and mail gear (since the classes that use them will get all their AP from agility) it's value will be next to zero.
Honestly, I find that a good thing, because I hate taking non-strength items, it gives me the feeling of doing something not meant to be done, but that is only my humble opinion.
Nonetheless, these changes will certainly come with one patch 4.0 which is surely 6-12 months ahead (soon (tm)), so we have to work for now, in order to min-max correctly, with the entire itempool, which does include all non-strength items, pragmatically.
Go tell the Spartans, passerby:
That here, by Spartan law, we lie.
You're original conclusion, that it makes those items less attractive, is correct. We will get a lower return since the ones we tend to look at have agi AND crit rating. However, your extended conclusion that it makes plate better is not. Leather/agi items will still likely be the best (though we'll have to see actual items to be sure).
There is a reason that blizzard is changing the way stats are distributed in Cataclysm/4.0. Currently, plate items have 4 stats, while leather/mail have 5. When item level points are distrubted on an item's various stats, the higher one stat is marked, the more "points" it uses... there are diminishing returns, if you will. As such, you get more "bang for your buck" from leather/mail items. Blizzard has tried to correct this by giving plate DPSers talents which increase strength by a percentage, but as you can see, it's a problem that keeps popping up no matter how many times they change that. The faster ilvl increases, the more pronounced this problem will become. And with projected Tier ilvl's in IC being 251, 264, and 277, we can expect this to be even more so the case in Icecrown.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
In terms of BiS, SimCraft and Rawr seem to come down in support of two different sides in the plate vs leather debate. I'm starting to wonder if I should be investing in all of this crit/AGI gear if general STR stacking wins out in the end by ever so slightly.
Zurm, I did not say that they become less attractive than strength items, only less attractive overall, which closes a little the discrepancy between the categories. You are, of course, absolutely right, concerning the stat allocation on both categories, but until now, before 2pcT9 (and hopefully post-2pcT9) slow strength weapons were nevertheless in front of faster agi weapons.
Go tell the Spartans, passerby:
That here, by Spartan law, we lie.
Also, it was mentioned earlier that the loss of the 2pc bonus would likely revert our rotation back to one with a CS priority. Something else to keep in mind is the sharp loss in the value of crit; using [Inscribed Ametrine] to reach a socket bonus will almost certainly no longer be the ideal choice, and we'll have to go back to getting pure STR gems with one prismatic.
After using the BiS list but turning off the 2T9, Bold comes slightly in ahead (0.5 dps) with a 4 strength bonus from a yellow. Assuming they made a Red/yellow sockets with a 6 strength (like Sunwell gear), it would be worth using a yellow.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Actually the ideal choice are etched (10str/10hit) - works for any socket bonus.
Just have to find the right gear combination and pieces that allow you to do this (that are still competitive with the equivalent ilvl hit pieces).
Update to include my latest numbers averaged from multiple single target boss kills over the last week.
This includes misses on exo and cons and absorbs all averaged out to the numbers you see below.
This does not include RV crits or any other set bonuses.
HoW is active the last 18% of the fight.
I even purposely made exorcism about 1k lower than what i'm currently hitting for on average.
I have updated the code to simulate a random 40% DS proc reset which includes melee swings and total dps.
Then I was going to run this 300 times and get a distribution of the results but then I realised why bother when simcraft can do all this for us.
Neraya:
I've checked and recheked and finally found an error in the way python handles floats.
The time starts at 0 and the gcd is 1.3sec for all cases of cons and exo.
I'm now getting the same as you (with the damage numbers above):
Actually the ideal choice are etched (10str/10hit) - works for any socket bonus.
Just have to find the right gear combination and pieces that allow you to do this (that are still competitive with the equivalent ilvl hit pieces).
It doesn't work like that. The only time it is worth gemming for hit over crit (or anything really) is when the gear choices with hit are vastly worse than those without it. You should never go out of your way to drop hit gear and then "make it up" with gems, use Rawr or one of the spreadsheets to determine what is the best course of action.
Well no I'm not encouraging not using hit gear and gemming everything for hit.
Just one or two pieces that have the same ilvl equivalent.
We are also discussing the loss of 2pc t9 and hence the lowering of crits worth.
For example lets say you are using Executioner's Vice and are just at the hit cap, you are also using 20str gems in all yellow sockets where the bonus is +4str (or equivalent in haste/crit/etc)
Replacing the neck with Charge of the demon lord (same ilvl) and changing 5 yellow gems to str/hit to gain socket bonuses will be a dps increase.
Have you done any research into how adding HoW into the mix would affect all this? It would be very interesting to see what, if anything, changes sub-20%.
I have HoW modelled in my sim. I just didn't know how to make any worthwhile numbers out of it. If you can tell me what you'd like to see, I can punch up the numbers and let it roll out for you
Punched up something myself:
5Min fight, 2.7Swing timer, 1.6GCD, 1.3GCD on spells.
Activating HOW for the last 30seconds of the fight
Using J>CS>DS>HoW>Cons>Exo
A3 is without T10 proc, B7 is with T10 proccing on melee white only.
I copied A1 and B1 from the previous post for comparison, rotation is different, but since HoW isn't active in A1/B1 it doesn't matter where it is
I can do pretty much anything with this, just tell me what rotations you want, duration, and at what time how is available (could be entire duration even).
I can even print out the entire rotation with swings and showing where procs happened. (it tends to be quite long which is why I haven't done so)
Originally Posted by Jeh
Neraya:
I've checked and recheked and finally found an error in the way python handles floats.
The time starts at 0 and the gcd is 1.3sec for all cases of cons and exo.
I'm now getting the same as you (with the damage numbers above):
The good part is that 2 individual sources now get the same numbers, confirming both models work or both have the same bug. Considering it's a different language, developped independantly I'm kinda going to go with the first choice
I've learned to be careful about using floats for anything. I'm using integers (scaled by 100) for the timing myself to avoid the nasty floating point inaccuracies and rounding errors. You do need to be aware afterall that a float cannot accurately represent 0.1 because it's a repeating sequence in binary (like 1/3 being a repeating sequence of 0.333333... in decimal).
I can do pretty much anything with this, just tell me what rotations you want, duration, and at what time how is available (could be entire duration even).
I can even print out the entire rotation with swings and showing where procs happened. (it tends to be quite long which is why I haven't done so)
This is actually quite excellent. The only other rotation I'd be interested in seeing would be something like DS > CS > J > HOW > Cons > Exo (or a various mix of DS first cycles, depending on how much time you have). Just to see how the T10 2pc would play out.
Thanks again for your work here!
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
This is actually quite excellent. The only other rotation I'd be interested in seeing would be something like DS > CS > J > HOW > Cons > Exo (or a various mix of DS first cycles, depending on how much time you have). Just to see how the T10 2pc would play out.
Same basic system.
5min fight, 1.6GCD, 1.2 GCD on spells, 2.7 swing timer and Proc on melee white only (I think considering the data seen so far, this is the most likely way the proc will work).
Z1 & Z2 = HoW after 270 sec (last 30sec)
Z3 & Z4 = HoW after 150 sec (half the fight)
Z5 & Z6 = How from the start (all the fight, in case you wanna go solo Vaelastrasz )
You'll have to be more specific than "a various mix of" if you want more of these. There's a lot that can be varied here. And just posting loads and loads of these tables without actual purpose/need isn't really constructive either.
a range of swing times
longer/shorter fights
more/less HoW time
more rotations
...
Well no I'm not encouraging not using hit gear and gemming everything for hit.
Just one or two pieces that have the same ilvl equivalent.
We are also discussing the loss of 2pc t9 and hence the lowering of crits worth.
For example lets say you are using Executioner's Vice and are just at the hit cap, you are also using 20str gems in all yellow sockets where the bonus is +4str (or equivalent in haste/crit/etc)
Replacing the neck with Charge of the demon lord (same ilvl) and changing 5 yellow gems to str/hit to gain socket bonuses will be a dps increase.
Aside from the completely incorrect statement in there (if you're using all Bold gems in yellow sockets with Strength bonuses instead of Inscribed you're failing at gemming to begin with), you're just stating exactly what I did. If, by virtue of itemization, you can get greater DPS out of a non-hit item in conjunction then you do it. If a item with hit rating is overall best in slot there is no reason to drop it in order to gem for hit rating. Again, it has nothing to do with Strength/Hit gems being "preferred", its all about the itemization. Use Rawr.
i dont see anyone testing or even bring up these ideas
ima new poster dont kill me
seal of wisdom glyph-minorglyph-reduces mana cost to 50%
seal of command 8% mana return glyph
ive done tests on the dummy in ironforge,where i use seal of vengence and then switch to glyhped seal of wisdom to regen some mana,then go back to seal of vengence before the 5 stack falls off-i noticed about a small dps loss,maybe about 100-150 dps,but i didnt do many tests,and not for very long
i was able to stay above 75% mana very easily
maybe someone could do some testing with the seal of wisdom glyph and see if seal dancing from wisdom to vengence could work,
actually how are you gonna test it when the tier10 isnt even out yet
Why would you EVER want to use SoW as ret ?
Maybe if there was a fight where you're constantly being manaburned (something like the faceless ones before vezzax) or manadrained, or where mobs are constantly shielded. But I honestly see no need in it, and glyphing SoW as ret is just wrong.
It shouldn't be a problem if you do some basic math on the tables, you'll see we'll be doing considerably more DSes which is mana intensive, but we're also cutting back on the amount of Exo's (3/4 mana of DS) and cutting back somewhat on the amount of COnsecrations (just under double DS mana). It reall shouldn't be a problem and when mana gets to be an issue, the first thing to scratch off the rotation is Cons, so at worst I can see us needing to cut down on Cons slightly more than we do now.
I'm not modelling mana in my sim and it's somewhat hard to do with so many regen effects going on but using the numbes in the tables, you can more or less figure out how much mana is getting used, how much mana we should get back from judges, how many melee swings cause a JOW proc and how much regen you'd get over 5minutes. It should give a close answer as to how bad (or not) the situation will be.
There is no reason to use either Seal of Wisdom or Glyph of Seal of Command. Mana is not really an issue on live and remains to be seen what will happen with Tier 10 2pc, but doesn't look like it will be worse. Even on 10-mans it isn't a serious enough issue to worry about. You may have to skip a consecrate every now and then, but that's about it. 25 man mana is not an issue at all until you enter 20% and start using HoW, and if you're spending enough time sub-20% to run yourself out of mana, you probably have bigger problems.
Using Seal of Wisdom is a straight dps loss, and even glyphed the mana cost makes it questionable at best for mana regeneration. Glyphing Seal of Command is a dps loss because you're not using Consecrate, Exorcism or Seal of Vengeance glyphs. Seal of Command is also only used primarily for AoE situations, meaning even less use out of the glyph, or a greater dps loss from not using Seal of Vengeance.
Solo mana efficiency is irrelevant. You don't do any content solo where it would matter and you don't do any heroics or raids solo. Losing dps in favor of something that is not even a problem is also a bad idea.
I'd consider Glyph of Seal of Command if one of the new encounters focuses primarily on AOEing Undead adds. Holy Wrath plus Consecrate spam can wreck havoc on a Ret's mana bar.
I'd consider Glyph of Seal of Command if one of the new encounters focuses primarily on AOEing Undead adds. Holy Wrath plus Consecrate spam can wreck havoc on a Ret's mana bar.
Maybe, unless you judge Wisdom. JoW gives back a lot of mana, so much that I don't need to use Plea all that much.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
After using the BiS list but turning off the 2T9, Bold comes slightly in ahead (0.5 dps) with a 4 strength bonus from a yellow. Assuming they made a Red/yellow sockets with a 6 strength (like Sunwell gear), it would be worth using a yellow.
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr
Aside from the completely incorrect statement in there (if you're using all Bold gems in yellow sockets with Strength bonuses instead of Inscribed you're failing at gemming to begin with)
Neraya: I've got the same thing going with my program and I totally agree with you about the variations. Also depending on when the melee hits proc DS it can also throw out each rotation. I've been getting different ideal rotations for every single run I do.
Neraya: I've got the same thing going with my program and I totally agree with you about the variations. Also depending on when the melee hits proc DS it can also throw out each rotation. I've been getting different ideal rotations for every single run I do.
Redcape has something in his spreadsheet to model the 2 piece. I haven't looked at his code though.
Without the 2 piece T9 bonus, crit loses a lot of appeal it once had. However, I will likely still use Inscribed gems for good socket bonuses because I like the crit for healing I do if healers don't get to someone in time. That is worth 0.5 dps loss for me .
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
* Item - Shadowmourne Legendary - Your weapon swings have a chance to drain a Soul Fragment from their victims. When you have acquired 10 Soul Fragments you wil unleash the Souls of the Damned, dealing 6840 to 7560 shadow damage split between all enemies within 8 yards.
* Soul Fragment - Gained a Soul Fragment. When 10 Soul Fragments are accumulated, they will release, triggering the Souls of the Damned.
* Souls of the Damned - Deals 6840 to 7560 Shadow damage, split between all enemies within 8 yards of the impact crater.
- Another change to Divine Sacrifice:
Divine Sacrifice: Redesigned. The effect of Divine Sacrifice is now party-only and the maximum damage which can be transferred is now limited to 40% of the paladin’s health multiplied by the number of party members. In addition, the bug which allowed Divine Sacrifice to sometimes persist despite reaching its maximum damage has been fixed. Divine Sacrifice will now cancel as soon as its maximum damage value is exceeded in all cases. Finally, damage which reduces the paladin’s health below 20% now cancels the effect early.
Looks like using Divine Protection/Shield is now a must to prevent it from early breaking. But I guess that could bother us less with all the changes done to it.
- Once the T10 bonus is available for testing, it would be interesting to hear how the additional DS increase the uptime of Berserking, considering we increase the number of melee attacks that can proc it.
Looks like using Divine Protection/Shield is now a must to prevent it from early breaking. But I guess that could bother us less with all the changes done to it.
I believe Divine shield would not have any affect on it since in your own quote it even says that bug has been fixed. Thought I can't say with 100% certainty that divine protection will have any affect.
I believe Divine shield would not have any affect on it since in your own quote it even says that bug has been fixed. Thought I can't say with 100% certainty that divine protection will have any affect.
I believe that he means in order to get the full effect / duration of the spell, as otherwise it would break at 20% health before reaching the full 200% of your health in damage absorbed.
Berserking's uptime will go up a bit since we're using more melee abilities and thus have more of a chance to proc it.. But it won't be much.
According to Neraya's numbers, currently our best would be 26.4 yellow attacks per minute, while with 2pT10 assuming all melee strikes can proc, it would be 32.4. That's only 6 extra attacks per minute while the number of attacks that can proc zerking is much higher than that thanks to auto and SoV. Perhaps 80ish per minute would be a base estimate in a raid with full buffs?
On a side note, simplifying the haste equation has left me with (base time)/(1+haste%) = new time. So to calculate 20% haste on a 3.6 weapon, it would be (3.6)/(1.2)=3.
This new T10 libram that procs strength on crusader strike is something I will get for at least one reason: When I'm NOT using SoV. And there are a lot of situations where that is the case (trash, heroics, PvP zerg situations, ...).
I think everyone is using libram switching in a "cast seal X" macro.
/cast Seal of X
/equip Libram of X
Currently I can only equip the gladiator libram that gives AP on crusader strike when not using SoV.
Seal twisting is fine, unless you don't overuse it and block your GCDs, imho.
10/22/09, 2:18 PM
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