So far it doesn't appear to operate based on an ICD. Perhaps just a chance to proc? For example:
[06:07:01.200] Darkarthasx Drain Life Heroic Training Dummy 2559 (R: 566)
[06:07:01.200] Darkarthasx Drain Life Heroic Training Dummy 2684 (R: 264)
Two procs within (presumably) a few milliseconds of one another. Depending on what types of damage events proc it, then it appears to have a 5-6% chance.
Hopefully he ends up using it in PTR raids so we can give you guys more samples. A quote from him:
"... the proc alone beats out the crit / expertise from grievance by over 250dps (Fully raid buffed in sim), interesting ICC weapons, although I don't think other classes have 30% damage increase like dk's do on procs like that."
[Empowered Deathbringer] from the latest Onyxia apparently tested to a 5-6% proc chance (and incidentally also scaled with Death Knight +shadow damage talents). So it's believable that this also could have a 5-6% chance. That real raid testing would be very nice.
Still like to see it in the hands of a paladin who could test whether (and how much) it scales with spellpower.
Any chance this DK could test naked and in full gear to see if proc changes based off of AP? Also, may sound stupid, but it's PTR: Perhaps he could use a Frostwyrm flask and test a good bit (even on dummy) to see if the top end increases?
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
Has anyone had an opportunity to pick up Bryntroll (the new ilvl 264 2H) or seen a report on its proc mechanic? I'd imagine if the proc scales with spellpower (as similar on hit lifesteal procs have) then Retribution would reap a huge benefit.
A long time ago all damage procs scaled with spellpower. Blizzard made a concerted effort to nerf this behavior quite some time ago. There were a few types of procs that up until recently were missed (largely because there were no "updated" items that used any of these). Up until 3.2 lifesteal (direct damage only) was one of them. I kept around a Shadowstrike from Molten Core to play around with on my Paladin, and it did in fact proc for about 1800-2200 (depending on Avenging Wrath and other factors). The other type of proc was only on one weapon - Flame Wrath from Blackrock Depths. This procced an AoE fire spell that did not scale with spellpower. However, the damage shield it put on you for a few seconds did scale 100%, which allowed for some fun in Battlegrounds (especially versus rogues), and farming lower level instances with lots of mobs (bouncing back 2000+ damage every hit you took).
Unfortunately, with the Onyxia revamp and the inclusion of the updated Shadowstrike on her loot table, they most likely noticed the "bug" or finally decided to fix it since a fairly powerful weapon had the proc. No lifesteal procs scale with spellpower anymore, and even the Flame Wrath was nerfed. Unless they specifically coded this weapon to ignore the new rules they put in place, it should behave the same way.
On a similar note - most of the proc-based weapons on the Onyxia table have between a 4-6% proc rate with no internal CD, and I expect this proc to fall in that margin as well. A DK will see a larger benefit than a Ret paladin will (blood presence, and various other talents, like Blood-Gorged, Black Ice, etc), but it may still be competitive with other weapons of the same tier in the hands of a Ret paladin.
* Divine Intervention no longer clears the effect of Exhaustion and Sated on target.
I am glad blizzard removed the temptation to DI/Soulstone in the latest build.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
* Divine Intervention: This ability now also removes Exhaustion or Sated from a target if the recipient is out of combat when the effect ends.
It really is a perfect solution: you can't abuse DI to get extra lusts on valuable DPS but you don't have to sit around waiting for someone's Exhaustion to tic off before another attempt so long as they cancel the DI after the boss despawns.
I'm impressed if they actually managed to get DI to work properly. In its current state it has absolutely no use except for if your raid wiped before a bloodlust actually happened.
In other news, looking at our T10 set, it appears they made it pretty easy to go right from T9. Each piece is almost entirely T9 + a little more of each stat, the only differences being haste instead of armor pen on the chest and haste instead of hit on the shoulders. This does lead me to believe, however, that some of those pieces are placeholder stats as suggested (the chest has similar itemization to T7 and the shoulders have similar itemization to T8. This could just be due to lack of alternatives though.) Overall if those stats remain, it seems like a pretty well done set.
Spell power appears to have no effect, but the testing was rather limited. +% damage talents/abilities like Blood Presence have an effect. Ebon Plaguebringer has an effect.
I took a more thorough look at the logs. "Chance on hit" appears to be restricted to physical hits and certain magical hits - e.g. Death Coil, Frost Fever, Blood Plague, Wandering Plague, and Unholy Blight do not proc it. Icy Touch, both components of Scourge Strike, melee hits, Blood-Caked Strike, Blood Strike, Plague Strike, and Drain Life all proc Drain Life. This would change the proc rate to ~10%.
What would that mean for Retribution? CS, DS, J, and melee hits would proc it. Exorcism and Consecration wouldn't proc it? Where would SoV seal procs, SoV DOT, and Righteous Vengeance stand?
What would that mean for Retribution? CS, DS, J, and melee hits would proc it. Exorcism and Consecration wouldn't proc it? Where would SoV seal procs, SoV DOT, and Righteous Vengeance stand?
While we still won't know for sure until we test it a bunch, I'd wager that the SoV application/refresh hidden swing would trigger it, as it currently can trigger JoW and other proc-based abilities and functions like a melee attack in all ways other than doing damage.
Also, I wouldn't write off our T10 set... I think they were talking about other classes when they said stats might be placeholders on mmo-champion. For example, the T10 DK tanking chest has the same stats as the DPS one (crit/arp). They did say (and historically have followed through) with keeping the "perfectly" itemized sets to the last tier of content, and this set is amazing. No armor pen, and we aren't being inundated with hit or exp (just one item with either). While it's also a little to early to start planning BiS gear, I'm currently going to be keeping my eyes on 4pc + heroic Fleshrending Gauntlets for a plate-only set.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
4 piece would be in the BiS, so I am glad they didn't add too much hit and expertise (one piece has either stat) and used no ArP. Note there will be an upgrade path (badges, badge item + non-heroic token, then + heroic token), so it gets better.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Shadowmourne - Items - Sigrie There are the stats. I modeled it in Rawr and got a 800 dps over my 245 weapon (20s cooldown on shadow proc is what I assumed).
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I think it's quite interesting that including the abundance of Strength already on it, the proc will be buffing it while stacking too, and though I can't find the post that mentions it now (about Chaos bane only triggering on Undead/Demons/Elementals, assuming that wasn't reverted) it makes me wonder if that would mean a (more or less passive) extra 400 Strength on fights where it doesn't proc?
I think it's quite interesting that including the abundance of Strength already on it, the proc will be buffing it while stacking too, and though I can't find the post that mentions it now (about Chaos bane only triggering on Undead/Demons/Elementals, assuming that wasn't reverted) it makes me wonder if that would mean a (more or less passive) extra 400 Strength on fights where it doesn't proc?
It looks like they changed the effect only affecting Demons/Undead/Elementals actually. The main reasoning behind that specific nerf (I ould assume) is that the old proc dealt a good 7000 damage, making it way too powerful for PvP. The newer proc only deals 2000 damage, but with the addition of the extra Strength on the stacks it should work out to be just as good.
The 1900-2100 damage proc on Shadowmourne is, in my mind, a way for them to both justify and limit giving the weapon a stacking 40-360 Strength buff. Regardless of the frequency of the Soul Fragment generation speed (unless, of course, it is sloth-like and will never reach a 10th stack in a 5~ minute boss fight), the proc is basically 180~ passive Strength with slight DPS proc
2000/(Soul Fragment generation time * 10) = procs DPS.
On the topic of how fast Soul Fragments accumulate, we can't do any realistic modeling for months, but you can definitely get a ballpark figure. Assume frmorrison's 20 second is roughly correct, that would make the instant damage from the proc worth 100 DPS. My guess is that it's closer to 40-60 seconds, and only from auto-attacks. In this case, it'd yield 33~ DPS.
Either way, the base stats, speed, and stacking 40 Strength procs make this weapon, the Shadow damage proc doesn't.
Lastly, I'm damn near BiS for this tier, and Shadowmourne is 770 DPS for me discounting the proc. Assuming the proc amounts to 180~ passive Strength and 33~ from the instant proc, it's closer to 1070 DPS over my [Dual-blade Butcher]
I have rather interesting question. Since patch 3.3 is comming, my guild (and I guess many other as well) started the discussion about which class can benefit from Shadowmourne the most. Sadly, I was never really good at theorycraft, and during the discussion I had not much to say. However, opinions about ArP on new legendary making it DK/Warrior only anger me - Blizz wouldn`t mark it as DK/Warrior/Pally weapon, yet giving it the stats for 2 out of 3 classes only, right? How is it really? Do we, pallies, make up with higher STR scaling and/or additional 30% ap converted into spellpower? Could anyone show me any numbers behind it? How does the thing look from DK/Warrior point of view? I`d like my guild to pick the best person to wield the axe, however I`d lie if I said I didn`t want it myself as well
DKs get by far the most benefit. They have rediculous multipliers (Blood Presence really is the the main reason) and they get much more use out of armor pen in 3.3. As much as it pains me to say it, DKs really get the most out of it. As for comparing us and warriors, I really don't know.
Regardless, it is an amazing weapon and a huge upgrade.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Blood in particular because of their greater benefit from ArP (which is if I understand my fellow guildmate correctly still way behind strength in their itemization priority) but as Zurm correctly points out, because of the huge multiplier from blood presence (the dps presence if you're unfamiliar with DKs) which is +15% to the base damage of the proc, the weapon proc is good for any Dk spec.
Bloods also have +9% from Bloody Vengeance and +10% if above 75% health, so there is more reason for the base damage to be higher.
The other specs have other multipliers, more focused on shadow damage as for example Black Ice , and I guess a Frost Dk gets the least from the weapon, but I could of course be mistaken. I don't know if the multipliers from Rage of Rivendare and Tundra Stalker apply to the proc.
[This was a response to the post below me...]
Last edited by Tobrexa : 11/23/09 at 6:16 PM.
Go tell the Spartans, passerby:
That here, by Spartan law, we lie.
Blood in particular because of their greater benefit from ArP
While that is true regarding ArP, Unholy is still the better spec in 3.3.
I added the weapon into Rawr (perhaps not correctly, but it was the same info for both) and got 950 dps for my Pally and 1050 dps for my Unholy DK. While it is true that DK gets the most benefit, the weapon should in my opinion go to your longest playing/most active melee dps.
Ultimately, it is up to the DKP/council/whatever loot system who can gets the weapon.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Despite risking the continuation of this Shadowmourne tangent, I feel some input on this matter is warranted.
Originally Posted by frmorrison
I added the weapon into Rawr (perhaps not correctly, but it was the same info for both) and got 950 dps for my Pally and 1050 dps for my Unholy DK. While it is true that DK gets the most benefit, the weapon should in my opinion go to your longest playing/most active melee dps.
Ultimately, it is up to the DKP/council/whatever loot system who can gets the weapon.
The individual difference in gain between Retribution, Arms, Fury, Blood, Frost, and Unholy will be minimal at best and will, more than likely, be dictated more heavily by (un)favorable RNG.
I ran some napkin math the day SM became data-mined, specifically dealing with the proc portion in order to place it in a efficiency hierarchy for the six available DPS specs capable of wielding it. This was done assuming all raid buff/debuffs were present (IE Sanctified Retribution and Ebon Plague apply to all in question) as well as the rate of Soul Fragment acquisition was constant among all six specs.
Talents like Blood Vengeance or Vengeance do not apply here, as they do not include Shadow damage sources. Fury could potentially get a multiplier from Enrage, but I don't believe it's taken in PvE DPS builds.
Stacking Strength Proc portion
Spec
Total%Mod
Individual Modifiers
Fury
+20.0%
+20% (Improved Berserker Stance)
Retribution
+15.0%
+15% (Divine Strength)
Blood*
+11.4%
+6% (Veteran the Third War), +2% (Abomination's Might), +3% (Ravenous Dead)
Arms
+4.0%
+4% (Strength of Arms)
Unholy*
+3%
+3% (Ravenous Dead)
Frost*
+3%
+3% (Ravenous Dead)
*DKs also get a +15% from Rune of the Fallen Crusader.
*DK Pets would be influenced from this proc as well, but my currently understand is that their Strength values updates similarly to how Bladed Armor/Armored to the Teeth pulse.
All this knowledge known, I still believe the weapon should be entrusted to whomever is your senior melee and/or most reliable as well as skilled.
% damage increases and % strength increases doesn't tell me any useful information when comparing classes, since all those classes do different attacks that all use various modifiers. You need to compare apples to apples to have anything meaningful.
Simulationcraft/Rawr are pretty much the best source of comparison since they independently attempt to account for all those things.
If you are curious about DKs, the runeforge has about a 75% uptime, so assume 11% more strength from that. DK pets check your stats/talents when summoned as well as every so often like Bladed Armor.
A smart Unholy DK will not have Black Ice.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
% damage increases and % strength increases doesn't tell me any useful information when comparing classes, since all those classes do different attacks that all use various modifiers. You need to compare apples to apples to have anything meaningful.
Simulationcraft/Rawr are pretty much the best source of comparison since they independently attempt to account for all those things.
If you are curious about DKs, the runeforge has about a 75% uptime, so assume 11% more strength from that. DK pets check your stats/talents when summoned as well as every so often like Bladed Armor.
A smart Unholy DK will not have Black Ice.
Additionally, per the Unholy thread, the shadow proc portion of SSv3.3 on the PTR isn't affected by all % modifiers (RoR and Outbreak specifically), so I wouldn't assume out of pocket that they affect this shadow proc either. That may not be intended behavior, so maybe they will. In any case, premature speculation is premature.
Well maybe I'm wrong but this is a 3.7 speed weapon and ours seals (our major dps abilities) are not normalized. All the dk strikes are normalized but rune strike. I dont know for warriors but I think that only slam is not normalized and is only instant on proc.
Well maybe I'm wrong but this is a 3.7 speed weapon and ours seals (our major dps abilities) are not normalized. All the dk strikes are normalized but rune strike. I dont know for warriors but I think that only slam is not normalized and is only instant on proc.
Weapon speed and Normalized / Non Normalized attacks are calculated in Rawr as far as I know, so there is no good reason to add that after the previous statement placing the DKs in the best position for this weapon.
Still, things can change before 3.3 goes live on various abilities and/or the weapon itself. (and probably after the 3.3 ^^)
Finally, a legendary weapon will probably not only be given to a player ONLY because speadsheets put his class with 150 more DPS. Lots of things are taken into account.
The new trinkets look really good. Got hold of some datamined info yesterday. I'm sure everyoen is aware of the new trinket by now as listed below.
Heroic Deathbringer's Will. Increases your armor penetration rating by 167. Your attacks have a chance to awaken the powers of the races of Northrend, temporarily transforming you and increasing your combat capabilities for 30 sec.
The "race" powers are as follows:
-Strength of the Vrykul
Granted 700 strength - Vrykul.
-Agility of the Wolvar
Granted 700 agility - Wolvar.
-Power of the Taunka
Granted 1400 attack power - Taunka.
-Precision of the Iron Dwarves
Granted 700 armor penetration rating - Iron Dwarf.
-Aim of the Tuskarr
Granted 700 critical strike - Tuskarr.
-Speed of the Gorloc
Granted 700 haste rating - Gorloc.
Keep in mind this is for the heroic version, the standard version is 600 stat (1200 AP).
Assuming, they have a 45 ICD like all procable trinkets and taht your highest stat is chosen, this is going to be a massive uptime on a huge STR bonus.
11/17/09, 4:10 PM
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