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Old 02/19/10, 10:57 AM   #391
gilda
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Mage
 
Area 52
I'm noticing some very odd behavior in the latest release of Rawr. My BiS list that i use is basically the Plate Priority except for non-plate items(assuming no TAiaJ). Basically i use the badge belt, Sindrogosa neck, and Skeleton Circle. This was BiS for me based on those rules, but the new release now recomends i drop the badge belt for the Valiteria one, and equip some hit gems. I don't understand how the Valitheria belt can be better than the badge belt when you can take advantage of the hit, does this indicate a problem in the latest release? In the previous release this wasn't the case.

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Old 02/19/10, 11:01 AM   #392
Redcape
King Hippo
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
Vek'nilash
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Weapon damage matters quite a bit,
Very true, but weapon speed is also very impactful. Bryntroll is unfortunately 3.4 speed which makes a very substantial difference in overall dps, particularly with t10 and the increased number of strikes we get, especially the unnormalized seal procs.

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Old 02/19/10, 11:48 AM   #393
Mewee
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
The Maelstrom (EU)
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Really you just have to look at what procs it. If you have poor RNG with 2pc T10 on one attempt, you're likely to see something similar for the Bryntroll proc. Although most of my experience has put the heroic Bryntroll proc squarely at 2.8-3.2% whenever I was curious to look (NOT scientific at all, I simply assumed it worked the same as the normal version and it seems to).

You also have to keep in mind, while 2 million of your damage on a boss for however long it was may seem like a reasonably long time for you, it's not nearly long enough to really show outliers or deduce anything. At most, you had a couple hundred chances to proc bryntroll, and we'd really need to see tens of thousands to know if anything was wrong.
That makes sense, I do realize the sample size was relatively small, but I didn't see much fluctuation on our rogues (10.3k to 10.5k on pretty much every attempt) so I assumed a lot of the variation could be accounted to the drain life proc.

Maybe it is the combination of DS procs, drainlife procs and trinket proc syncing that causes the variance, but I was getting a bit worried that Bryntroll was not as good as I thought it would be.

Very true, but weapon speed is also very impactful. Bryntroll is unfortunately 3.4 speed which makes a very substantial difference in overall dps, particularly with t10 and the increased number of strikes we get, especially the unnormalized seal procs.
Does this mean that a 3.4 speed weapon is better or worse than a 3.6 speed weapon if the average damage is the identical? Usually you would choose a slower weapon simply because it has higher damage range than a similar ilvl faster one, but assuming damage was equal I get a bit in doubt; More seal procs versus higher seal damage. And does Bryntroll increase or decrease in relative value with 4PT10?

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Old 02/19/10, 12:15 PM   #394
Pdawg
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Mewee View Post
Does this mean that a 3.4 speed weapon is better or worse than a 3.6 speed weapon if the average damage is the identical? Usually you would choose a slower weapon simply because it has higher damage range than a similar ilvl faster one, but assuming damage was equal I get a bit in doubt; More seal procs versus higher seal damage. And does Bryntroll increase or decrease in relative value with 4PT10?
Keep in mind that seals also proc off of DS and CS, and a faster weapon speed will only give you more seal procs from autoattacks.

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Old 02/19/10, 4:09 PM   #395
 frmorrison
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Ashstrike
Human Paladin
 
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Originally Posted by gilda View Post
I'm noticing some very odd behavior in the latest release of Rawr. My BiS list that i use is basically the Plate Priority except for non-plate items(assuming no TAiaJ). Basically i use the badge belt, Sindrogosa neck, and Skeleton Circle. This was BiS for me based on those rules, but the new release now recomends i drop the badge belt for the Valiteria one, and equip some hit gems. I don't understand how the Valitheria belt can be better than the badge belt when you can take advantage of the hit, does this indicate a problem in the latest release? In the previous release this wasn't the case.
I am not sure why are you seeing that, but the Dreamwalker belt (crit/ArP) is inferior to the Vengeful Noose (leather ArP/crit badge belt). Also, assuming you can use all the hit on the crit/hit plate badge belt, it is better than using hit gems and a 264 ArP belt. Sometimes Rawr is wrong.

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Old 02/21/10, 3:26 AM   #396
Brovar
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Burning Legion
First time poster here, just looking to get some insight on upgrading my boots to [Footpads of Impending Death], currently I have the normal version of [Greaves of the Saronite Citadel] and since my guilds officers want to give Frostbitten Fur Boots and the plate boots off Deathwhisper to the rogues and warriors/dk's before me, I'm just looking for an upgrade until my turn comes along and I'm wondering if these boots would be a good choice.

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Old 02/21/10, 12:41 PM   #397
Dreamy0
Glass Joe
 
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Human Paladin
 
Frostmane (EU)
Originally Posted by Brovar View Post
First time poster here, just looking to get some insight on upgrading my boots to [Footpads of Impending Death], currently I have the normal version of [Greaves of the Saronite Citadel] and since my guilds officers want to give Frostbitten Fur Boots and the plate boots off Deathwhisper to the rogues and warriors/dk's before me, I'm just looking for an upgrade until my turn comes along and I'm wondering if these boots would be a good choice.

[Footpads of Impending Death] would be a rather huge upgrade for you, so I would suggest crafting them. They would probably even be better for you then Frostbitten Fur Boots in your current gear, since without the expertise you would be severely undercapped.

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Old 02/21/10, 12:46 PM   #398
Lorque
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Thunderlord
Just to clarify things: "In the context of this thread, "Best in Slot" means the best items assuming you had access to all 25 man items." This states that the "All Items From Heroic Modes" are BiS over "Plate Items From Heroic Modes", assuming you had access to ANY item from Heroic Modes, correct?

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Old 02/21/10, 1:01 PM   #399
Dreamy0
Glass Joe
 
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Human Paladin
 
Frostmane (EU)
Originally Posted by Lorque View Post
Just to clarify things: "In the context of this thread, "Best in Slot" means the best items assuming you had access to all 25 man items." This states that the "All Items From Heroic Modes" are BiS over "Plate Items From Heroic Modes", assuming you had access to ANY item from Heroic Modes, correct?
Yes that is correct, otherwise it wouldent be necessary having an all item BiS and a plate BiS list. The plate BiS list is only made for people in guilds that arent allowed to take leather gear above druids/rogues.

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Old 02/21/10, 4:45 PM   #400
gilda
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Mage
 
Area 52
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
I am not sure why are you seeing that, but the Dreamwalker belt (crit/ArP) is inferior to the Vengeful Noose (leather ArP/crit badge belt). Also, assuming you can use all the hit on the crit/hit plate badge belt, it is better than using hit gems and a 264 ArP belt. Sometimes Rawr is wrong.
Well i figured out what went wrong, seems that Rawr .9 reverted the malevolent girdle to below budget stats, instead of the correct increased stats. Once i refreshed this issue was resolved.

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Old 02/21/10, 11:41 PM   #401
 frmorrison
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Ashstrike
Human Paladin
 
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Originally Posted by Dreamy0 View Post
Yes that is correct, otherwise it wouldent be necessary having an all item BiS and a plate BiS list. The plate BiS list is only made for people in guilds that arent allowed to take leather gear above druids/rogues.
Also Enhance Shaman and sometimes Hunters could have priority on rings/necks/cloaks as well. So more people are likely to be using Plate only drops.

Originally Posted by gilda View Post
Well i figured out what went wrong, seems that Rawr .9 reverted the malevolent girdle to below budget stats, instead of the correct increased stats. Once i refreshed this issue was resolved.
The default item cache is not current, so some items are missing a gem socket or stats. It seems the next release will have the current item cache. If you see something that doesn't match the OP, that is likely why it is happening.

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Old 02/22/10, 4:48 AM   #402
Neraya
Banned
 
Human Paladin
 
Khadgar (EU)
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Sometimes Rawr is wrong.
It's not supposed to be

Some stuff in rawr got changed from 2.3.8 to 2.3.9, some of it good, some of it bad. If you stick to having 1 rotation defined (bug workaround, see rawr model thread). 2.3.9 should give you better results than 2.3.8, but they will be different. For many people "different" means "wrong" especially if they made bis lists, got that gear, and suddely rawr is telling them something else is better. Such is the nature of bugfixes.

If rawr is indeed putting one item lower than another when it shouldn't be... That's either a bug, or an RNG issue.
If exemplar's and redcapes spreadsheets say another item is better and rawr disagrees, then that's something that could use some investigation.

if haste is involved... it could be a dip/bump in DPS caused by a less/more efficient rotation. Unfortunately haste doesn't result in nice stable DPS curve, it has some fluctuations.

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Old 02/22/10, 5:29 AM   #403
Mutant
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Galakrond
Herkuml War Token is above Normal Whispering fanged skull (251) for 4pc t10 correct?

The OP's general trinket priority puts WFS above the token and I assume with anything other than 4pc t10 WFS would be better

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Old 02/22/10, 6:57 AM   #404
Elamahpla
Von Kaiser
 
Goblin Death Knight
 
Mug'thol
Originally Posted by Mutant View Post
Herkuml War Token is above Normal Whispering fanged skull (251) for 4pc t10 correct?

The OP's general trinket priority puts WFS above the token and I assume with anything other than 4pc t10 WFS would be better
If I'm not mistaken, HWT takes priority over WFS when you have 4pc t10 with TAiJ and (I think) Bryntroll. But I could be mistaken.

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Old 02/22/10, 8:24 AM   #405
 Zurm
The Ultimate in /facepalm Technology
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Arthas
I'm quite certain you're mistaken. The main issue is that even if HWT looks good on paper, it's not good in practice. We stack the debuff too slowly and there are too many fights where the stack can drop off, it just doesn't make sense.

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