Libram of Three Truths has a significant ramp-up time. It breaks even with the T9 libram after 39 seconds, and is better after that. It is significantly better than the PvP libram when using SoC.

Exemplar, are you still modelling Bryntroll as a 15% chance on melee strike? It seems to be closer to 11.3 (2 PPM), which could put Shadow's Edge slightly above non-heroic Bryntroll (it is hard to figure it out exactly in Rawr since the SoV application is not counted as a melee strike).

That is a horrible reason for you to opt to have your guild DK get shadowmourne first. It should be based on guild dedication and longevity.

Bryntroll and Shadow's Edge are so small in a dps difference that most people wont even notice it. For me when I spreadsheet it, I see a whopping 20 dps difference. Obviously the 277 version is better than Shadow's Edge.

Also if you read up in the Unholy DK thread, you can see that Bryntroll and Shadow's Edge are also very similar in dps for them. Here is the post if interested.

"RE: Bryntroll vs. Shadow's Edge (Post #1716)

With the newest version of the sim, and using all of the raid damage buffs (now that I know exactly which talents affect the proc), I got a dps:AP value of 0.57:1 from the sim and 6.66 PPM (249.7 dps base, + 13% (CoE) + 15% (BP) + 10% (Blood Gorged) + 3% (Ferocious Inspiration) = 367.7 dps), giving me a net EP value for the 264 version of 645.1 EP in my current gear (which admittedly has a rather larger than normal amount of haste rating, 471).

With that EP value, 264 Bryntroll gains a total EP (using the weights in my sim, as blood, so not sure how applicable it is here) of 4769.44, while Shadow's Edge has a total EP of 4712.18. Even assuming a generalized EP scale, Bryntroll and Shadow's Edge are still neck and neck."

Using my modified Rawr, between 2 and 3 is are the various 277 weapons.

Also using my Rawr, Unholy does more damage with Byrntroll (264) over Shadow's Edge (because DKs don't care about weapon speed that much).

I'm modeling based on Glutton's research in the Rawr Ret thread.

11.3% chance on:
melee autoattack
hidden-SoV-DoT-application-on-melee*
Judgement Hit/Crit
JoW/JoL application*
RV application/refresh (on J crit, CS crit, or DS crit)*
CS Hit/Crit
DS Hit/Crit

frmorrison:
My understanding is Rawr does not model the items marked with asterisks. These inflate the procs of Bryntroll, thus inflating its damage. Many hits have 2 chances to proc, and some have 3 (crit Judgement).

I.e. Rawr is undervaluing the proc, which is why it's disagreeing with my spreadsheet.

Baklava - I'm not sure what DK mechanics have to do with our Best in Slot. Are you arguing that we should change our BiS to avoid certain weapons for the good of the raid (much like we avoided double Death's Verdict)?

No I was simply saying you shouldn't give up the chance for Shadowmourne just because Bryntroll might outdps Shadow's Edge.

Yeah, I've noticed this as well. If you look at the record for my raid this week, you'll see that even though the ICD is the apparently the same (I am NOT sure about this, the proc rate is low enough that I haven't been able to accurately check this, and I'm far too lazy to dig through logs), the ring's proc rate is much lower...

# of procs:
Paragon (Death's Verdict): 73
Icy Rage (Whispering Fanged Skull): 75
Frostforged Champion: 52

This presents a significant difference. If memory serves, the previous rep rings for Scale of the Sands in Mt. Hyjal (example) had a 10s duration, 45s ICD, and 10% proc rate. That's probably what we're seeing now... definitely something much lower than the 30% we see with Greatness or Death's Verdict.

That being said, this is still a very solid ring. Just don't expect it to line up nicely with your ap/str-proc type trinkets.

EDIT: Sorry you don't see me wearing it on my armory, I always forget and log out with my teleport ring :/

[Deleted] Please delete.

I am modeling the ring as 1 PPM with 4% proc chance, along with 60 second ICD.

I am pretty sure the ring's proc scales with more melee hits, so just autoattacking wouldn't give the same uptime as in an actual raid.

Forget it, I wasn't thinking straight.

When you say ramp-up time, are you referring to the time it takes to stack Formidable (+44 strength) to 5? This could certainly be rather quick with haste buffs and the like. This libram doesn't appear to be modeled in RAWR 2.3.2 just yet. It appears near to the bottom in the libram list. I'm curious to learn how you modeled it (if you used RAWR).

I admit I like the idea of being able to carry +220 strength around with me from target to target as long as I have something to strike within 15 seconds.

So just to sum up all the data on this thread and to make sure i have the right ideas about the Byrntroll,...

The proc can proc off of: (10% chance)
White hits
Specials
Righteous Vengeance applications
Corruption dot applications
Corruption Seal Hit
Did i miss anything?

But the proc has a cap of 2 procs per minute. Correct?

Also the reason we keep moving the proc chance to 15 is due to the raw massive amount of proc chances rets get? Correct?




Random question. Does the Proc scale with things like CoElements, and our damage increasing talents,.. or will it always deal damage based on base proc?

If you were simply meleeing a target with no seal, you would see 2 procs per minute on average. This should not be confused with a garuntee or cap. In any given minute you may see 10 procs or 0 procs, although it is unlikely.

There is a formula to convert a PPM into a chance % on hit. For a 3.4 speed weapon @ 2 ppm this comes out to 11.3(repeating)% chance on hit.

The 15% number is an attempt to jimmy-rig Rawr to report a more accurate DPS number from the proc. On the user end we don't have the capability of editting Rawr to reflect the true proc mechanics so we're inflating the chance of melee hits.

Yes, the proc scales with your +% all damage talents and abilities (Crusade, Sense Undead, Sanctified Retribution, Avenging Wrath) and the proc scales with +% magic damage abilities (CoE/Ebon Plague/EoM). It does not scale with +% physical damage talents and abilities (Vengeance, Blood Frenzy/Savage Combat). The proc will also scale with +% hit and +% spell hit abilities if you are below the spell hit cap.

Cool i wanted to clarify that so there were no missconceptions... So anything that scales spell damage or hit.. scales this proc. HAWT.

Also when you guys were refering to PPM and % chance... You were actually talking about the chance that you will get 2 procs in a minute rather than... (this is not the case)10% chance to proc the effect with a cap of 2 ppm. That Does make this weapon pretty sexy.

It's not the "chance" that you will get 2 procs in a minute. PPM means that the proc rate is derived from your weapon speed.

Procrate = PPM / (60 / Weapon_Speed)

I've been playing with rawr recently as well as im about half way to 2set 10 now, Anyone got a really good setup for double 2set? Most the stats seem the same, as in mostly direct upgrades... but i keep trying to see what the best 5th off piece would be while keeping both caps

My modified Rawr 2.3.2 is working pretty good (except the 2T10 is rated too high) however the new Rawr 2.3.3 doesn't have 277 gear in it but does have the 264 gear, which should help you create your own upgrade list.

However, it needs Rawr 2.3.3 needs some fixing. The Ashen rep ring needs to have a 2 PPM chance (not 100%) and 60 second cooldown. Also if you loaded my heroic mode Rawr files, it would not work (since 277 aren't in the program) but the normal mode works.

I show a little more dps in the BIS Plate by using:

Leggings - Scourge Reaver's Legplates with 3x Precise Cardinal Ruby
Ring - Skeleton's Lord Circling with 1x Bold Cardinal Ruby (Unknown gem bonus)

Do you think the value of haste would go up if you have the shadowmourne?

With all our attacks on CDs, we ideally want to synchronise Judgement with having 9 stacks because it's our hardest hitting attack. If we can achieve that, then getting any more haste than is required to do so would actually reduce our DPS. I don't think we can judge accurately until we know the proc rate.


On a related note: Bryntroll's Drain Life proc can miss. It happened to me while I was on Deathwhisper adds, which are level 80; it must therefore count as a spell because I'm physically hitcapped for bosses. (This possibly isn't a surprise to anyone, but I don't recall seeing anyone mention it previously.)

Level 80 dudes have a 4% chance to be missed by spells, so if you are physically hitcapped vs. bosses there is no way your spells can miss. I have no idea if the proc uses your hit rating at all, but unless you are against a boss target none of your spells can miss if you have any reasonable amount of hit rating.

[delete me]

I used slightly less dps pieces to gain a lot of expertise for AoE reasons.

I don't think waiting to use Judgement is a good idea, even with Shadowmourne giving 360 strength at the 9 stack.

Drain Life works just like Exorcism, so you need 17% spell hit to never miss. Note all non-Holy spells sometimes get partial resists. Regarding your miss on the add (level 82, which is 6% spell hit) perhaps it on the magic immune one so shows as "Im" on WoL.