Retribution BiS Lists for 3.3 - Page 34

• frmorrison · 03/16/10, 7:10 PM

I updated the lists using the newest Rawr (which has better modeling) and changed the settings to better model an encounter. I changed the duration to 60 minutes and changed delay/wait to 0.2 seconds.
FYI, you can add the various levels of the ICC damage buff if you wish. Using the All Items list with Shadowmourne and 30% damage, Rawr says 17880 dps.

E: oops, missed an 8!

• Zurm · 03/17/10, 8:41 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Using the All Items list with Shadowmourne and 30% damage, Rawr says 1780 dps.

I believe you may be missing a digit somewhere in there. Multiplying the current highest damage (13,751 DPS) by 1.3 gives 17876.3, so I'd imagine you mean't 17880?

Also, does it strike anyone else as odd that the legendary is modeled a 1200 dps upgrade (increasing our total dps by almost 10%). I don't think the other classes are modeling it quite that high, and I can't help but feel we are overvaluing the weapon. It's an upgrade to be sure, but 1200 just seems a little... severe to me. Then again I suppose it's possible, I felt the same way about TAiaJ until I actually got one and tried it out.

One final note, the plate-only BIS list has the Arthas-25H sword listed as secondary to the Shadowmourne, but no compensation is made for the expertise swap when you lose it. I'd imagine some clarification along the lines of replacing Might of Blight with Skeleton Lord's Circle would be in order.

Exemplar · 03/17/10, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Zurm

Also, does it strike anyone else as odd that the legendary is modeled a 1200 dps upgrade (increasing our total dps by almost 10%). I don't think the other classes are modeling it quite that high, and I can't help but feel we are overvaluing the weapon. It's an upgrade to be sure, but 1200 just seems a little... severe to me. Then again I suppose it's possible, I felt the same way about TAiaJ until I actually got one and tried it out.

The only explanation I could offer is that it sounds like the proc effect is already modeled and at an extremely generous rate. My spreadsheet puts it closer to 400 DPS above Heroic Glorenzelg, counting averaged Str proc but not counting the damage proc. I'm waiting on raw data to model the proc accurately.

I am rather hoping that the Str proc will be better than a rough averaging. If it can proc during the 10 seconds the final buff persists, then you would drop from the 270 to a partial proc (1+ stacks of 30 Str), thus effectively increasing the effective average.

Shadowmourne is no doubt as large a weapon upgrade as TAiaJ is for trinkets, but 1200 does seem over generous.

kyle46 · 03/17/10, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

I am rather hoping that the Str proc will be better than a rough averaging. If it can proc during the 10 seconds the final buff persists, then you would drop from the 270 to a partial proc (1+ stacks of 30 Str), thus effectively increasing the effective average.

The recorded proc on mmo-champion states "Your melee attacks have a chance to drain a Soul Fragment granting you 30 Strength. When you have acquired 10 Soul Fragments you will unleash Chaos Bane, dealing 1900 to 2100 Shadow damage split between all enemies within 15 yards and granting you 270 Strength for 10 sec." So it seems that even after it goes off you still retain the 270 strength until the buff falls off.

Exemplar · 03/17/10, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by kyle46

The recorded proc on mmo-champion states "Your melee attacks have a chance to drain a Soul Fragment granting you 30 Strength. When you have acquired 10 Soul Fragments you will unleash Chaos Bane, dealing 1900 to 2100 Shadow damage split between all enemies within 15 yards and granting you 270 Strength for 10 sec." So it seems that even after it goes off you still retain the 270 strength until the buff falls off.

Yes. The question is do you build stacks during those 10 seconds. If you can get 2 procs in those 10 seconds you go from +270 Str to +60 Str. This is quite different from going from +270 to +0. The overall effective average increases as you've increased the lower range.

• Zurm · 03/17/10, 12:17 PM

I really don't think we'll get a good answer on how Shadowmourne works until we get a look of some logs of a ret paladin who has this. Other classes may have variable proc rates, and if history is any indication our class/spec is notorious for having a higher effective proc rate because we have multiple changes to proc stuff per ability (case and point: TAiaJ, Bryntroll).

However, we DO have some logs with Modk using the shadowmourne. Below is a link to logs from last night. A cursory glace says he used it (Chaos Bane proc) for at least Heroic Anub'arak, so I suggest looking at ToGC. EDIT: Also used on Professor Putricide hard. The shadow proc appear underwhelming (1.3% of his damage), but I'm looking through the static 270 str proc (also called Chaos Bane) and the fragment buff (called Soul Fragment).

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Update:

The way it works as follows. Chaos bane procs, and you CANNOT build soul fragments for the duration of the buff. However, once it expires, it appears you get your 10 stacks fairly quickly, he seemed to be getting them usually within 8-10 seconds. On his putricide log (admittedly not the best fight to analzye because of the movement and target swaps, but beggars can't be choosers) he has a 48.6% uptime on the fragment buff, and 42.6% uptime on Chaos Bane.

Assuming it's a 50/50 uptime on each buff, you're looking at 150 str for half the time, and 270 str for the other half, for a mid-range of 210 str. This is of course early, rough math but permanent 200+ str in addition to the weapon's 223 str, 3 red sockets, and 8 str socket bonus is ntohing to scoff at. But 1200 dps? I'm still skeptical.

dregernator · 03/17/10, 12:27 PM

I can't seem to find Shadow's Edge on the newest version of rawr....updated 3-16-10. Am I just retarded or is it missing?

Aurrius · 03/17/10, 1:04 PM

Originally Posted by dregernator

I can't seem to find Shadow's Edge on the newest version of rawr....updated 3-16-10. Am I just retarded or is it missing?

It could be missing, but you can add it yourself. In Rawr, click 'edit items' in the top of the screen. There you can add a new item by inserting a link to the item's page on the armoury or on Wowhead.

Marcos · 03/17/10, 2:39 PM

Delete. Redundant post.

Exemplar · 03/17/10, 3:43 PM

Originally Posted by Zurm

But 1200 dps? I'm still skeptical.

Note, all math below is extremely rough and speculative. We still have no knowledge of correct proc rate for a Ret Paladin and are working on rough approximations from a DK parse - thank you Zurm for spending the time to find a log and do the math.

In my spreadsheet modeling the Str buff per your rough math (but not the damage proc) going from H Skeleton Lord's Circle + H Glorenzelg to H Might of Blight + Shadowmourne is about 600 DPS increase.

I still suspect Rawr is already modeling the damage proc and at an obscenely high rate. Even if it procs every 20 seconds and is affected by CoE (for 113%) you've got an average 2k * 1.13 or 2260 every 20. That's 113 DPS. Why 20 seconds? 10 seconds to stack buff and proc direct damage, 10 seconds sitting with max buff unable to begin new stacks.

Total roughly 713 DPS upgrade (50 less if you swap SoV glyph for Exo Glyph in the Glorenzelg model).

Will be a huge upgrade, but not even close to 1200.

Glutton · 03/17/10, 4:24 PM

An Unholy DK has higher inherent modifiers on shadow damage than Retribution (7.1% versus 35.5%), so that part of the proc will certainly be stronger for them.

The Soul Fragment proc behavior appears to mimic current TAiaJ (and old school Bryntroll) rules. For example, a single Plague Strike produced 3 Soul fragments. This comes from the damage portion, refreshing/applying Blood Plague (think Holy Vengeance/Righteous Vengeance), and Blood-Caked Strike (think seals). So our melee strikes will probably provide up to three proc chances and DS/CS/J will provide two or three proc chances depending on if the attack crit. In addition, seals from Manifest Anger will probably provide additional chances, but not Manifest Anger itself.

The prevalence of 2x and 3x procs in the log leads me to believe the proc rate Soul Fragments is in the neighborhood of 50% or greater, although it'll be a pain in the ass to tease out a proper proc rate when you have to manually count strikes that are outside of the STR buff's duration.

• frmorrison · 03/17/10, 7:08 PM

Originally Posted by Zurm

I believe you may be missing a digit somewhere in there. Multiplying the current highest damage (13,751 DPS) by 1.3 gives 17876.3, so I'd imagine you mean't 17880?

Also, does it strike anyone else as odd that the legendary is modeled a 1200 dps upgrade (increasing our total dps by almost 10%). I don't think the other classes are modeling it quite that high, and I can't help but feel we are overvaluing the weapon. It's an upgrade to be sure, but 1200 just seems a little... severe to me. Then again I suppose it's possible, I felt the same way about TAiaJ until I actually got one and tried it out.

One final note, the plate-only BIS list has the Arthas-25H sword listed as secondary to the Shadowmourne, but no compensation is made for the expertise swap when you lose it. I'd imagine some clarification along the lines of replacing Might of Blight with Skeleton Lord's Circle would be in order.

Oops, forgot an 8.

I just looked at Modk's logs (a death knight) and made Rawr copy how he proc'ed the Axe (not the best solution, but better than my solution a month ago). The dps went down 10 dps, if Ret's procs it like an Unholy DK. I updated my post with what I used. Note Modk's logs shows Chaos Bane (the 2000 shadow damage) hitting for 1365 with Blood Presence. That lowered the dps a bit.

Using Plate Heroic BiS with Shadowmourne, I get better returns using Might of Blight than Skeleton Circle in Rawr with 5.73% -dodge. It also says a strength gem is better than a 20 expertise gem in that setup.

Cyrane · 03/19/10, 5:42 PM

Perhaps not the best place to ask this question but I thought it would best fit in this thread.

I had a discussion recently with a guildy regarding Tiny Abomination in a Jar. He told me you had to hug the boss as close as possible for the trinket to proc, apparantly it's very limited in it's range to proc a mote.

First of all is my guildy correct? Do you really need to hug the boss. And if so does this mean that if you stand a little bit further from the boss, so you can still hit him due to a big hitbox, that your trinket will be useless and never proc then?

I hope I have been able to formulate my question clearly as English isn't my first language.

Thanks in advance,

Cyrane

Soulblazer · 03/19/10, 6:22 PM

Taj had that range issue, but it has been solved.

Ertai · 03/21/10, 12:55 PM

Greetings, just a quick question.

At the very first page of this topic the following is stated:

Priority List:
Use the FCFS priority of Judgement>Crusader Strike>Divine Storm>Hammer of Wrath>Consecration>Exorcism> Holy Wrath

In the Retribution: Updated for 3.3 topic it says this:

At T10 levels of gear, Judgement > DS > CS > HoW > Consecrate > Exorcism > Holy Wrath is theorized to be the most dps.

The max DPS of the BiS lists is theorized by using a different priority setting when compared to the 3.3 Retribution topic so it makes me wonder: which one is right?

It makes sense to actually use DS before CS because of the 2 piece bonus CD reset that we get but this isn't mentioned at the very first page of this topic. Was this simply not updated in either topic or is there another reason behind it?