Retribution BiS Lists for 3.3 - Page 4

Glutton · 12/16/09, 6:16 PM

Thus far Sindragosa appears to be the only encounter that has the possibility of meeting your conditions for DS to be useful. You have constant DOT ticks from Frost Aura, which scale upwards in the "burn" phase due to a +% damage stacking buff. There is also a ranged and melee backlash damage mechanic that punishes each individually player for attacking or casting mindlessly. It'll be interesting to see the healing contribution from DS with 2P T10 on that encounter.

Redcape · 12/17/09, 9:51 AM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

If you don't need Glyph of SoV, use Exo or DS at your pleasure. Neither is going to make you look like a superstar. Exo's DPS will be lost in the RNG fluctiation of a fight and DS's healing lost in the ocean of overheal. Even 2%-max-health-nerfed JoL is superior to DS, Glyphed or not.

While I am not convinced that the modeling you are using to describe the benefit of DS is reasonable I do think this conclusion is correct. On my spreadsheet the Exorcism glyph is a .5% damage increase, which clearly is not very exciting. That is 12000 damage over an entire 5 minute boss fight. The GoDS would provide 42000 healing over that time, provided in chunks of 840 (average) to the person in the raid with lowest health.

Neither of these effects is likely to make or break your raid. However, we do see druids blanketing the raid with hots even if they aren't sure those people are going to need them because extra health buffers do save lives. There is value in just pouring on more healing to increase the margins of safety, though that value is small. It is the same as a healer taking a 1% more healing talent; It is nearly certain that the raid will succeed whether or not the healer takes that talent as most likely it is just more overhealing. Now and then though it will matter and the DS heal is the same, a small and extremely difficult to measure improvement.

140 healing/sec is a good 3% of a healers output, and if you are in fact in a multitarget fight then you could be supplying as high as 12% (theoretical and unlikely max) of a healers output, though more likely more like 6% through GoDS. I think the value of that is drastically higher than the value of .5% more damage dealt, but again neither is likely to make or break you.

TheEnder · 12/17/09, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

A Best in Slot thread should never use glyph of Divine Storm because it will never increase your dps (it may increase the raid dps if the smart heal saved someone though). Since Blizzard loves to put in AoE situations, Cons will never be dropped this expansion. The GCD and mana savings is invaluable.

However, if you wanted to max your trash AoE contribution, you could swap the SoV/Exo glyph with the Divine Storm glyph for help with trash mob healing.

That is essentially the best point on the DS glyph question. If you want utility and have an open glyph slot, take it. But since it provides a 0 DPS gain it doesn't really factor into a BiS setup.

I did some basic testing with Bryntroll and found that the proc on a fight that requires movement and or target switching (A la deathwhisper or marrowgar) it provides a decent ~500 dps increase. Now I haven't run any numbers on it or put math to it but I'd be a little perturbed if it turns out that the proc can outweigh the greater speed and stats that shadow's edge has.

Can anyone confirm the ordering for Bryn 264, Bryn 277, and Shadow's Edge? It would be fairly disappointing if Shadow's Edge is surpassed by a weapon that drops off the first boss in an instance and it is only used to complete the quests to upgrade it to Shadowmourne.

Sojeph · 12/17/09, 11:57 AM

I have a question about the librams, has any1 tested Libram of Three Truths? It seems that a static 220 str increase would be better for boss fights or am i misinterpreting this

Exemplar · 12/17/09, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by TheEnder

Can anyone confirm the ordering for Bryn 264, Bryn 277, and Shadow's Edge? It would be fairly disappointing if Shadow's Edge is surpassed by a weapon that drops off the first boss in an instance and it is only used to complete the quests to upgrade it to Shadowmourne.

In my spreadsheet it is (from best to worst):
1) Shadowmourne (no proc or Str buff modeled)
2) Bryntroll Heroic
3) Bryntroll non-Heroic
4) Shadow's Edge*

* - some Heroic 277 can beat out Shadow's Edge, depending on gearing (hit, exp).

Obviously with the stacking Str buff and the proc, Shadowmourne would pull even further ahead.

This is part of the reason I argued FOR our top DK to be first Legendary in our guild. Now I just need Marrowgar to actually drop Bryntroll.

Grigorim · 12/17/09, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Sojeph

I have a question about the librams, has any1 tested Libram of Three Truths? It seems that a static 220 str increase would be better for boss fights or am i misinterpreting this

Libram of Three Truths has a significant ramp-up time. It breaks even with the T9 libram after 39 seconds, and is better after that. It is significantly better than the PvP libram when using SoC.

Grigorim · 12/17/09, 12:53 PM

Exemplar, are you still modelling Bryntroll as a 15% chance on melee strike? It seems to be closer to 11.3 (2 PPM), which could put Shadow's Edge slightly above non-heroic Bryntroll (it is hard to figure it out exactly in Rawr since the SoV application is not counted as a melee strike).

Baklava09 · 12/17/09, 1:12 PM

That is a horrible reason for you to opt to have your guild DK get shadowmourne first. It should be based on guild dedication and longevity.

Bryntroll and Shadow's Edge are so small in a dps difference that most people wont even notice it. For me when I spreadsheet it, I see a whopping 20 dps difference. Obviously the 277 version is better than Shadow's Edge.

Also if you read up in the Unholy DK thread, you can see that Bryntroll and Shadow's Edge are also very similar in dps for them. Here is the post if interested.

"RE: Bryntroll vs. Shadow's Edge (Post #1716)

With the newest version of the sim, and using all of the raid damage buffs (now that I know exactly which talents affect the proc), I got a dps:AP value of 0.57:1 from the sim and 6.66 PPM (249.7 dps base, + 13% (CoE) + 15% (BP) + 10% (Blood Gorged) + 3% (Ferocious Inspiration) = 367.7 dps), giving me a net EP value for the 264 version of 645.1 EP in my current gear (which admittedly has a rather larger than normal amount of haste rating, 471).

With that EP value, 264 Bryntroll gains a total EP (using the weights in my sim, as blood, so not sure how applicable it is here) of 4769.44, while Shadow's Edge has a total EP of 4712.18. Even assuming a generalized EP scale, Bryntroll and Shadow's Edge are still neck and neck."

• frmorrison · 12/17/09, 1:17 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

In my spreadsheet it is (from best to worst):
1) Shadowmourne (no proc or Str buff modeled)
2) Bryntroll Heroic
3) Bryntroll non-Heroic
4) Shadow's Edge*

* - some Heroic 277 can beat out Shadow's Edge, depending on gearing (hit, exp).

Obviously with the stacking Str buff and the proc, Shadowmourne would pull even further ahead.

This is part of the reason I argued FOR our top DK to be first Legendary in our guild. Now I just need Marrowgar to actually drop Bryntroll.

Using my modified Rawr, between 2 and 3 is are the various 277 weapons.

Also using my Rawr, Unholy does more damage with Byrntroll (264) over Shadow's Edge (because DKs don't care about weapon speed that much).

Exemplar · 12/17/09, 2:26 PM

Originally Posted by Grigorim

Exemplar, are you still modelling Bryntroll as a 15% chance on melee strike? It seems to be closer to 11.3 (2 PPM), which could put Shadow's Edge slightly above non-heroic Bryntroll (it is hard to figure it out exactly in Rawr since the SoV application is not counted as a melee strike).

I'm modeling based on Glutton's research in the Rawr Ret thread.

11.3% chance on:
melee autoattack
hidden-SoV-DoT-application-on-melee*
Judgement Hit/Crit
JoW/JoL application*
RV application/refresh (on J crit, CS crit, or DS crit)*
CS Hit/Crit
DS Hit/Crit

frmorrison:
My understanding is Rawr does not model the items marked with asterisks. These inflate the procs of Bryntroll, thus inflating its damage. Many hits have 2 chances to proc, and some have 3 (crit Judgement).

I.e. Rawr is undervaluing the proc, which is why it's disagreeing with my spreadsheet.

Baklava - I'm not sure what DK mechanics have to do with our Best in Slot. Are you arguing that we should change our BiS to avoid certain weapons for the good of the raid (much like we avoided double Death's Verdict)?

Baklava09 · 12/17/09, 2:45 PM

No I was simply saying you shouldn't give up the chance for Shadowmourne just because Bryntroll might outdps Shadow's Edge.

jgRnt · 12/17/09, 2:51 PM

Might not be anything interesting, perhaps merely yet another confirmation, but I let the character swing away for an hour and a half just to see for myself what the ring does:

Atleast it's far from the 1ppm I was told before. Took quite a while to get it to procc once it was off cooldown sometimes.

• Zurm · 12/17/09, 3:05 PM

Originally Posted by jgRnt

Took quite a while to get it to procc once it was off cooldown sometimes.

Yeah, I've noticed this as well. If you look at the record for my raid this week, you'll see that even though the ICD is the apparently the same (I am NOT sure about this, the proc rate is low enough that I haven't been able to accurately check this, and I'm far too lazy to dig through logs), the ring's proc rate is much lower...

# of procs:
Paragon (Death's Verdict): 73
Icy Rage (Whispering Fanged Skull): 75
Frostforged Champion: 52

This presents a significant difference. If memory serves, the previous rep rings for Scale of the Sands in Mt. Hyjal (example) had a 10s duration, 45s ICD, and 10% proc rate. That's probably what we're seeing now... definitely something much lower than the 30% we see with Greatness or Death's Verdict.

That being said, this is still a very solid ring. Just don't expect it to line up nicely with your ap/str-proc type trinkets.

EDIT: Sorry you don't see me wearing it on my armory, I always forget and log out with my teleport ring :/

TheEnder · 12/17/09, 3:11 PM

[Deleted] Please delete.

• frmorrison · 12/17/09, 5:13 PM

I am modeling the ring as 1 PPM with 4% proc chance, along with 60 second ICD.

I am pretty sure the ring's proc scales with more melee hits, so just autoattacking wouldn't give the same uptime as in an actual raid.