Retribution BiS Lists for 3.3 - Page 42

Barogorn · 05/21/10, 1:13 PM

In question to armor pen trinkets in general, will the static arm pen be turning into mastery in cata? If so will it put those trinkets ahead come pre expansion patch? Just wondering if anyone has looked into this since with most guilds having their dps geared out it would be a good time to pick those arm pen trinkets up.

Exemplar · 05/21/10, 2:42 PM

On the one hand, to my knowledge Blizzard has not explicitly stated specifics, but they've somewhat intimated that ArmPen will all translate to either Haste or Crit (whichever the item does not already have). It sounds like Mastery won't be available on quest greens or blues, it may not even be available in 5man epic loot and only become available in the raiding tiers.

On the other hand, translating Armpen to Crit or Haste could still increase the value of an item, possibly to a status higher in desirability. With a bit of work you could probably modify items in Rawr or on a spreadsheet and translate the ArmPen into Crit or Haste, then use the tool to determine upgrades.

On the Gripping Hand, since Cata expects a big spike in health (Stam), possibly to the point where DPS will have 80-100k healthpools, and the ratings currently reverse engineered are a factor of nearly 6 greater than present, it's very likely even leveling greens and blues will beat ICC/RS 25man Heroic loot. Saving from shards is fine, but jumping through hoops for a potential increase in 4.0 would not be worthwhile.

Glutton · 05/21/10, 8:20 PM

Please delete.

Swampmoose · 05/24/10, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Avitus

Actually using Shadowmourne and being close enough to the BiS set, Rawr will start to pick Exp over Str if under cap.

Using Spreadsheet to confirm this, if you use BiS stats Str:Exp will be about 1:1. If you factor in that the Spreadsheet (Redcape's 4.2) doesn't model things such as Shadowmourne's Chaos Bane proc and account for that, Exp actually passes ahead of Str, which is the same thing Rawr is saying.

At BiS (or close to BiS level) the point of inflection is passed: Exp is not just close to Str and preferred to counter RNG, but flat out better for theoretical DPS numbers as well.

Something to note is the ICC buff in regards to expertise vs. strength. Rawr shows a nearly 1:1 value when no buff is present. Selecting the 15% buff causes the value of expertise to skyrocket above strength. My armory, which is near enough to BiS to not have a huge impact on the results, shows expertise sitting around 2.91 and str around 2.88 iirc. When the 15% buff is selected expertise jumps to around 3.3 and strength remains nearly the same. I would think this is fairly accurate but I am not one for numbers.

Redcape · 05/24/10, 4:23 PM

Originally Posted by Swampmoose

Something to note is the ICC buff in regards to expertise vs. strength. Rawr shows a nearly 1:1 value when no buff is present. Selecting the 15% buff causes the value of expertise to skyrocket above strength.

This certainly sounds like a substantial bug. 15% more damage on top of everything should changes the values of the stats but their relative weightings should be identical. Expertise has not had the possibility of growing over the course of the expansion while overall attack power values have, so the idea that expertise catches up to strength at some gear level is inevitable. However, the idea that a flat % damage bonus would change the relative strengths is inconceivable, 15% more damage means the expertise DPS return # will go up 15%, just as the str DPS return will go up 15%.

The only way this could make sense is if the scaling % damage increase was double dipping through RV or some other mechanism but I have no reason at the moment to think that is true.

Avitus · 05/25/10, 12:18 AM

What the dwarf said.

Additionally, I just checked in Rawr and adding 15% buff does not change Exp in relation to Str.

Swampmoose, something is wrong on your end.

Swampmoose · 05/25/10, 9:29 AM

I went home, deleted my current copy of rawr and re-downloaded the newest version to start fresh and everything scales properly with the buff as you described. I had been trying to reproduce some certain haste value results someone had mentioned and I probably screwed something up along the way when trying to do that. Or, I just can't read numbers. Certainly an error on my end. Thanks for straightening that out.

Glutton · 05/27/10, 11:22 PM

There are no real surprises here. Level 284 items are going to trump any 277 in our current all item BiS. Thankfully there aren't any ICC to ICC item shifts as a result of juggling hit from the Ruby Sanctum plate boots. All five changes in our BiS are Heroic Ruby Sanctum 25 items replacing Heroic ICC 25 items.

Wrist: [Polar Bear Claw Bracers] => Umbrage Armbands (Heroic)
Ring: [Band of the Bone Colossus] => Signet of Twilight (Heroic)
Trinket: [Death's Choice] => Sharpened Twilight Scale (Heroic)
Boots: [Frostbitten Fur Boots] => Apocalypse's Advance (Heroic)
Neck: [Sindragosa's Cruel Claw] => Penumbra Pendant (Heroic)
Other items: no changes from the original all item BiS 3.3 post.

The DPS value of Sharpened Twilight Scale is going to vary significantly based upon your current armor penetration. For example, if you're using Glorenzelg its value is going to be fairly close to my original 22 DPS estimate. However if you have Shadowmourne and absolute BiS, then the trinket grows to a somewhat more substantial 63.5 DPS upgrade (48.3 if you're using Oathbinder). These estimates are a bit less disappointing, although I'm sure we all would like to have seen an ilvl 284 version of Death's Choice. The non-Heroic version of Sharpened Twilight Scale remains a DPS downgrade versus Heroic Death's Choice in all circumstances.

Edit: updated for new 25 man bracers.

Caglar · 05/28/10, 9:27 AM

Point taken! =p

• Zurm · 05/28/10, 9:57 AM

Originally Posted by Caglar

On Rawr it does say that Bloodfall pulls ahead by roughly ~140dps with my current setup, but after running roughly 20 dummy tests on each weapon (I know that it's probably not a long enough margin for accurate measure), Bryntroll consistently pumps out higher numbers.

Every time I hear someone say "dummy test" as a way to check anything other than proc rates, I develop an aneurism in my brain. A puppy AND kitten simultaneously die somewhere on earth. Etc.

Target dummies will *NEVER* provide an accurate comparison of DPS in a raid. When you sit on a target dummy, you are missing many key raid buffs. These raid buffs alter the relative values of different abilities and damage types (specifically, physical damage is greatly undervalued, which is why in this case Bryntroll with it's magic proc pulls ahead). Trust Rawr, it's right. Bloodfall is especially better than Bryntroll on any kind of cleave situation, such as heroic LK.

For the love of god, please don't talk about DPS tests on target dummies.

SimonShadow · 05/29/10, 2:16 PM

Originally Posted by Glutton

The non-Heroic version of Sharpened Twilight Scale remains a DPS downgrade versus Death's Choice in all circumstances.

Does this statement apply to the non-heroic Death's Choice? Or do you believe the STS is an upgrade in this regard?

Glutton · 05/30/10, 5:47 PM

Originally Posted by SimonShadow

Does this statement apply to the non-heroic Death's Choice? Or do you believe the STS is an upgrade in this regard?

Oops, I should have been more specific. ilvl 271 Sharpened Twilight Scale provides slightly higher DPS than ilvl 245 Death's Choice (+34.22) and ilvl 264 Whispering Fanged Skull (+8.74).

Assuming TAJ is your other trinket, the overall DPS order would be:

Heroic Sharpened Twilight Scale > Heroic Death's Choice > Sharpened Twilight Scale > Heroic Whispering Fanged Skull > Death's Choice > Herkuml War Token > Heroic Deathbringer's Will > Whispering Fanged Skull > Deathbringer's Will > Greatness (STR).

Olympus · 05/31/10, 3:16 AM

Originally Posted by Glutton

There are no real surprises here. Level 284 items are going to trump any 277 in our current all item BiS. Thankfully there aren't any ICC to ICC item shifts as a result of juggling hit from the Ruby Sanctum plate boots. All five changes in our BiS are Heroic Ruby Sanctum 25 items replacing Heroic ICC 25 items.

.....

Assuming TAJ is your other trinket, the overall DPS order would be:

Heroic Sharpened Twilight Scale > Heroic Death's Choice > Sharpened Twilight Scale > Heroic Whispering Fanged Skull > Death's Choice > Herkuml War Token > Heroic Deathbringer's Will > Whispering Fanged Skull > Deathbringer's Will > Greatness (STR).

I do not know, but I think you are forgetting the fact that Ruby Sanctum will be released relatively close to the patch 4.0, it was mentioned that it's the last content update prior to it.

4.0 will be changing *a lot* of our item budget balance, and you are already twisting the BiS list to lose plate items for agility ones from RS (Namely the Wrists). That of course in addition to ArP being removed from all items, and being replaced with "Mastery", which I believe will dramatically increase the value of all ex-ArP items. I wouldn't be surprised if the new *mastery injected* 284 STS would even trump the 277TAiJ. We will have Rawr to tell us when the new rules are out.

Don't you think it's a bit obsolete to build a BiS list at this very point in time revolving around Leather gear??? I personally have been building my gearing towards full Plate from the start - for reasons ranging from ethical ones of taking 'ultimately useless gear to me' from Rogues/Ferals, to simply avoiding the headache of rebuilding my list from the start. And that was when I knew that the changes were 6 months or so away... Now it just sounds even weirder to do such a thing.

*Edited for Spelling*

Zalinda · 05/31/10, 3:50 AM

I was under the impression that "mastery" on gear wouldn't happen on anything but level 81+ gear(?). In part making it the reason to replace those ilevel 277 epics ICC with "quest blues" in the 80 to 85 levelling and the initial heroics.

Agusta · 05/31/10, 3:58 AM

Originally Posted by Zalinda

I was under the impression that "mastery" on gear wouldn't happen on anything but level 81+ gear(?). In part making it the reason to replace those ilevel 277 epics ICC with "quest blues" in the 80 to 85 levelling and the initial heroics.

Yes, I thought that arP will be replaced by Haste or Crit (the stat not already on the item).