Holy Paladin Compendium for 3.3 - Page 41

• Mex · 03/19/10, 7:49 AM

If you're looking to cut back on int in favour of throughput stats, trinkets and gems are probably your best options. At a rate of 1 HL per 5 seconds (12 / minute), Renewal's value in mp5 is roughly equal to that of Blinding Light (which itself suffers from the reliance on holy shock). For any reasonable fight, renewal's effective mp5 value makes it the absolute last place that you want to be looking to trade longevity for throughput.

zelse · 03/19/10, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Mex

If you're looking to cut back on int in favour of throughput stats, trinkets and gems are probably your best options. At a rate of 1 HL per 5 seconds (12 / minute), Renewal's value in mp5 is roughly equal to that of Blinding Light (which itself suffers from the reliance on holy shock). For any reasonable fight, renewal's effective mp5 value makes it the absolute last place that you want to be looking to trade longevity for throughput.

I've been thinking a lot about this lately...Not so much on INT v SP, but more-so on the "I have a lot of leftover mana, should I get more thouroughput stats?" topic.

Instead of making slight INT to SP changes, why not Mp5 to crit instead? As mp5 is a PURE mana regen stat, trade it in for a half regen half thouroughput stat like crit. (Instead of trading in INT, which increases mana regen and slight thouroughput for a pure thouroughput like SP).

Pardon my lack of supporting math, but from a completely logical standpoint:

Thoroughput----> SP

Regen/Thoroughput-----> INT/Crit

Regen----> MP5

Rather than trading in a stat that gives both regen/mana and slight thoroughput (INT) for a pure thoroughput stat (SP). If too much mana is the "problem", why not swap out the pure regen stat for the regen/thoroughput stat crit (as mp5 to crit is an actual possible choice, as a lot of gear has either crit OR mp5). Not only is this a more subtle change in gear in my opinion, but it digs directly into your "too much mana problem" by digging directly out of your regen, rather than digging out of a stat that increases more than just regen.. to fix a purely "too much mana" issue. Although crit is a RNG-luck based stat, and it isn't a great thing to rely on in terms of thoroughput, doing this would add to thoroughput while taking from and ONLY from your mana regen. (plus crit adds to regen too, so it's not that big or bad of a switch)

Not only is this my "idea", but I've actually started to make this change, (helm arcanum from mp5 one to crit one some other small changes..) and would appreciate any feedback on if this is a logical idea or not. And as a side note, the increased infusion of light procs also provide more utility in my heals following HS, (more times I can say "time for a quick instant FoL? or a 70% crit HL on the tank"...more utility based on what the current situation is. you really cant assign a spreadsheet value for the utility in decision making like that, so I am having trouble finding math to support this claim...basically: Crit adds some tricks up a paladins sleeve, where mp5 is a boring mindless stat that does only one thing.)

Shakaros · 03/19/10, 1:20 PM

Originally Posted by zelse

I've been thinking a lot about this lately...Not so much on INT v SP, but more-so on the "I have a lot of leftover mana, should I get more thouroughput stats?" topic.

This is the same fallacy that arose when the last tier of raid content had been available for some time.
There are two possible answers to having too much mana left.
1) You are doing normal modes and healing is trivial
2) You are doing hardmodes and are not casting HL enough or using plea too often.

Mox · 03/19/10, 3:01 PM

Originally Posted by mofidik

Should be noted that I was strictly talking 10man hard mode, and I am indeed aware of the difference between Blood Nova and Boiling Blood. Like I said, a guildy mentioned the mechanic I discribed above on our return night and it did seem to reduce BP intake for melee to run out. Regardless, if people have done 10man hard without melee moving out, I'll settle for urban myth.

Boiling blood has no splash effect at all, your melee should definitly NOT be running out as its a complete waste of time + DPS loss = ultimately more marks to keep alive. BoP the first caster to get boiling or you can bop melee and then freedom them right after to remove the bop.

Noules · 03/19/10, 4:07 PM

Originally Posted by Larenitis

So from my understanding, I get this: Mage gets Blood boil, bop the mage to keep Saurfang from getting the BP, then save the second bop for a mark? I mean it's either using it on the Blood boil to delay the mark, or use it on the actual mark. And also DiSac without bubble in conjunction (since I may have divshielded off a dot on myself). Since DiSac stops when you hit below 20% health anyways, or would it be risky, esp with the 2 marks out? I understand the entire point is to try and reduce the time as much as possible on getting a 2nd mark. And it seems to be more on the hand thinking, but I get the idea, thanks for the feedback.

It's not that I'm saving the 2nd BoP for the 2nd mark, it's just that three marks never occur (or more accurately, if it did, it'd almost certainly be a wipe) so there's not much point in using the 2nd BoP to prevent the blood power from the DoT. This is somewhat debatable, since less blood power does mean DBS does less damage. If I have the BoP up before the 2nd mark, I would always use it to attempt to delay the 2nd mark. If it's after, then I use it to buy a couple of seconds during the 2 mark phase.

I've been killed by divine sacrifice damage as recently as last week, though it was kind of an odd situation (H Sindragosa). I don't think divine sacrifice guarantees that you will not take damage that would take you below 20%, just that it checks (before applying the current 'round' of damage) that you are not currently below 20%, making it quite possible for divine sacrifice damage to kill you depending on the damage taken. It should be noted that DiSac's damage transfer component is party only however, unlike the divine guardian component, so it might not even be feasible to use the damage transfer as a cooldown depending on who has the marks. Generally from my experience, DiSac as a cooldown refers to the divine guardian component, and not the damage transfer, however, as the damage transfer is now both unreliable and capped in a raid setting (not to mention potentially lethal).

To get back to the point, though, I generally don't use DiSac for DBS heroic, as it doesn't seem all that useful - only two (or three, if you count the tank) players taking significant damage, and the damage is over an extended period of time, and not a single (short) predictable burst. I'm not actually sure it would prevent more damage than the GCD healing would recover. I usually use it just out of habit when I use my divine shield instead (which does very little admittedly, and is probably bad practice, but typically I have nothing else to do during that time anyway).

lightdragon1 · 03/19/10, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by Zuult

An interesting choice to compute indeed, I am currently facing the same choice but still hesitate to begin dumping int. Gemming haste means more pleas and more halved HL, and more danger to the tank. Yet a lack of haste is also dangerous to the tanks and also to individual raid members, which is very bad in hard modes.

Currently i'm in doubt so I stick with Int, but insight would be appreciated.

You dont need to plea if you can spam FoL for a time. i move to the pure silver for the SP and mana. i can HL for long spams if need be, but the 3.6k bonus healing FoLs with 823 haste is more then enough output. when I get to the Heroics in ICC then i might change something up.until then ill stick with my libram.

i dont think i would gem haste. the crafted 264 has alot. maybe some stam. But i can only see Int for a long time.

Fivedkpminus · 03/20/10, 3:36 AM

Solaces are generally better than Slivers since they don't have a 1 min cd any more

• frmorrison · 03/20/10, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by Noules

To get back to the point, though, I generally don't use DiSac for DBS heroic.

You can use the macro in the OP (you must hit it twice) to give the raid 20% less damage while removing the DiSac party damage.

Originally Posted by Fivedkpminus

Solaces are generally better than Slivers since they don't have a 1 min cd any more

The Slivers never had a 1 minute cooldown, just the data mining was incorrect. Solaces are great.

Noules · 03/21/10, 1:45 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

You can use the macro in the OP (you must hit it twice) to give the raid 20% less damage while removing the DiSac party damage.

I use the macro (or a variation), it's just that I never really seem to find a good period to use it during DBS. I don't know that there's any given 6s where I can be assured it will do more good than just getting another HL out. As noted earlier this is because there's no sharp raid damage on DBS, nor is it required as a tank cooldown to survive some predictable hard hit.

Ggx · 03/21/10, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Noules

I use the macro (or a variation), it's just that I never really seem to find a good period to use it during DBS. I don't know that there's any given 6s where I can be assured it will do more good than just getting another HL out. As noted earlier this is because there's no sharp raid damage on DBS, nor is it required as a tank cooldown to survive some predictable hard hit.

Frenzy

• Mex · 03/21/10, 8:38 PM

Frenzy's going to last at least 60 seconds -- you won't be able to achieve full cooldown coverage, so the question becomes whether or not the damage absorbed is worth the GCD. During Frenzy especially, are you really going to want to risk skipping a HL? That's ~2.3 seconds without heals, which is enough for 3 (or 4 if you're horribly unlucky, and just a little slow / lagged) melee swings + MotFC ticks.

Ggx · 03/21/10, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Mex

Frenzy's going to last at least 60 seconds -- you won't be able to achieve full cooldown coverage, so the question becomes whether or not the damage absorbed is worth the GCD. During Frenzy especially, are you really going to want to risk skipping a HL? That's ~2.3 seconds without heals, which is enough for 3 (or 4 if you're horribly unlucky, and just a little slow / lagged) melee swings + MotFC ticks.

yes it is worth it, and especially worth it if you have other paladins in the raid and set up a rotation.

Xaoc · 03/21/10, 10:30 PM

1 GCD + 1 HL cast (1.3 sec) = 2.3 secs without a heal.

Ggx · 03/22/10, 1:25 AM

Ignore this post

madsushi · 03/22/10, 1:29 AM

Originally Posted by Ggx

We also have a little spell called Holy Shock, which is instant and is more than enough to heal through a Mark's 1 second worth of damage taken.

Yes, but Holy Shock is also on the GCD. The time from the Holy Shock hitting and the next Holy Light arriving remains the same, meaning you still have a 2.3 second period of no healing.