Holy Paladin Compendium for 3.3 - Page 8

Talith · 01/04/10, 2:55 PM

Originally Posted by Mox

258 ilvl T9 helm is better than inner warmth, but anyway. As for heroic Saurfang, I'm reasonably (99%) sure that if you turn off RF there should be zero threat issues at all being in melee range, altho since heroic isn't available yet it's kinda impossible to say what strat will be used with the adds but I'm reasonably sure atleast 2 of our adds will be taken care of with a hunter, furthermore if your raid manages the adds well you can go along way (actually managed to kill him with first mark coming at 12% this week) before even getting a mark which puts the fight into Anub-like-territory of freely pleaing to have 100% mana before first mark and then spam away till end.

I can also confirm that without RF standing in melee range I never got any kind of attention from adds spawning so I was able to melee during Saurfang, this also helps our strategy since we stack people in pairs so each nova hits at least 1 person so one less person in range means 1 less person contributing to saurfang's runic power with nova's.

Anyone has experience with the t10 2pc bonus best use? I currently have my wings DI and trinket (talisman of resurgence) macroed together and I use the CD on spam heavy/damage heavy moments, I was wondering if using 2pct10 makes a better use of DI since the combined power of DI/wings/trinket will probably only create more overhealing.

Finally, just a minor macro question here: The DG macro posted with /cancelaura first would also work for Divine Plea? (The click macro doesnt help me since its a keybind for me) I want it so clicking it while active will just turn it off.

Sidguard · 01/04/10, 3:57 PM

Originally Posted by Talith

Anyone has experience with the t10 2pc bonus best use? I currently have my wings DI and trinket (talisman of resurgence) macroed together and I use the CD on spam heavy/damage heavy moments, I was wondering if using 2pct10 makes a better use of DI since the combined power of DI/wings/trinket will probably only create more overhealing.

From healing Anub'arak HM 25 tonight, I found it was better to use avenging wrath and divine illumination seperately. This was due to the combined healing bonus, while providing impressive numbers, was just a lot of useless overhealing for 80% of the uptime.

• frmorrison · 01/04/10, 4:56 PM

Originally Posted by Talith

Finally, just a minor macro question here: The DG macro posted with /cancelaura first would also work for Divine Plea? (The click macro doesnt help me since its a keybind for me) I want it so clicking it while active will just turn it off.

You could do a macro like

/cancelaura Divine Plea 
/cast Divine Plea

and then just hit the keybind again to cancel. I don't like that macro personally because I spam my buttons, so I would quickly cancel Plea when I likely didn't mean to.

Regarding the question about trinkets for Flash, the trinket list is focused on a HL Pally but as a FoL spammer spell power ones may be ranked higher, Solaces are best for both styles.

Fivedkpminus · 01/05/10, 1:47 AM

Originally Posted by Sidguard

From healing Anub'arak HM 25 tonight, I found it was better to use avenging wrath and divine illumination seperately. This was due to the combined healing bonus, while providing impressive numbers, was just a lot of useless overhealing for 80% of the uptime.

Use em seperately over Divine Plea cooldowns so the 50% less healing doesn't hurt as much.
Such as Avenging Wrath > Divine Illumination > Avenging Wrath

Every Divine Plea.

DISCLAIMER - You must have tier 10 2 set bonus to do this.

Nexiom · 01/05/10, 3:38 AM

Would it be a viable option to get rid of Glyph of Holy Light and replace it with a different glyph since most of the fights we've seen so far and videos of PTR encounters require the raid to spread out rather than clump together?

I also had a question regarding optimal enchants. Since a lot of our Holy Light spam is overheal anyway is it a good idea to replace the 63 spell power with 30 int? I had a look at Diamondtear today and he's doing a lot of what I had in mind and am wondering if these changes are something that we should be considering.

Tenku · 01/05/10, 6:29 AM

Originally Posted by Varuk

Speaking of which, checking WoW-Heroes data again, fewer than 15 holy paladins on Medivh have been recorded wearing the Helm of Inner Warmth while a net total of 146 holy paladins on Medivh were recorded wearing the t9 helm. That's a failure rate of over 90% of the population. Is it a small fail? Yeah. But it's a fail nonetheless and it's a sign of the problem within the holy paladin community.

The simple truth of it is, the vast majority of WoW players don't know optimal from utter crap, and holy paladins seem to just have more such people than most classes.

I think you are simply wrong if you regeralize this as fail for all holy paladins. Sry, but mp5 is useless on all real fights where you dont have problem with mana but in same scenarios crit can be at least sometimes usefull (when not full overheal or as HL glyph help in aoe scenarios ).

I tried few gear choices crit/mp5 (including mail mp5 ones

), including checking logs during my ToC25GC clearings and result was clear. There was no need for prefering mp5 on gear over crit(int+number of sockets+haste is more important than mp5/crit choice on gear, sp is near same and for hhl pala nothing special)(i am haste hungry even over FoL cap due to my assigned role and enough mana).
My real raid "discoveries"
1. No problem with mana on those fights regardless of using mp5 or crit gear setup
2. Mana gain on spam intensive fights - weaving meele for mana gain procs between casts + replenishment effect(and innervate from feral in emergency case of need if other healers dying during encounter) is so much more than any other form of mana gain (crit/mp5) that you rly dont care which item you get first (crit or mp5 one) in relation to mana management
3. Only 2 healing intensive fights for me as HL pala are Twins(clump tactic) and Anu25HC (we are only healers HL+FL pala for 2 tanks MT+OT)
During Twins with this tactic you have heavy raid dmg and HL glyph healing gain rly nice from crit gear(last kill i finished with more than 1/3 mana in mostly crit gear)
During Anu25HC mana outside of last phase is not even thing that you need to watch becouse you will end with full mana always before next adds wave spawn(not even urgent need for using DP). And during last phase you need as much burst as possible to get OT up fast for adds from few k health to top and keep nonstop spam till adds wave dead or when tanks get PC(dont forget we are basicaly only 2 healers for tanks) so crit is rly usable too. You have all your CD rdy for p3 so with decent raid dps and without mistakes with overhealing raid, you finish fight without mana problems (and without need for DP too ofc).

So question is why are ppl so fanatic about differences between crit or mp5 regardless of fact that most time this difference on encountersd is not enough(and can be both way bad or good) and you can simply have few sidegear pieces for special encounters or assigned healing roles. Calling paladins bad names only becouse they take crit set helm over badges helm when you even dont know why they choosed one over another is showing us that you simply use guidelines on EJ as god words instead of own thinking about how to apply them in different encounters/situations.

• frmorrison · 01/05/10, 8:51 AM

Originally Posted by Nexiom

Would it be a viable option to get rid of Glyph of Holy Light and replace it with a different glyph since most of the fights we've seen so far and videos of PTR encounters require the raid to spread out rather than clump together?

I also had a question regarding optimal enchants. Since a lot of our Holy Light spam is overheal anyway is it a good idea to replace the 63 spell power with 30 int? I had a look at Diamondtear today and he's doing a lot of what I had in mind and am wondering if these changes are something that we should be considering.

Melee are still in a huge pack, and they need a lot of healing to live. If you like to heal ranged, the glyph loses some value but I don't see what is better.

30 Int is a viable enchant to your main hand for HL focus and 30 int is listed in the OP.

DiamondTear · 01/05/10, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Talith

Anyone has experience with the t10 2pc bonus best use? I currently have my wings DI and trinket (talisman of resurgence) macroed together and I use the CD on spam heavy/damage heavy moments, I was wondering if using 2pct10 makes a better use of DI since the combined power of DI/wings/trinket will probably only create more overhealing.

You shouldn't macro any cooldowns together because in the same encounter you might need to use them both separately and together. We don't have that many buttons so there shouldn't be a problem with binding them all.

Originally Posted by Nexiom

Would it be a viable option to get rid of Glyph of Holy Light and replace it with a different glyph since most of the fights we've seen so far and videos of PTR encounters require the raid to spread out rather than clump together?

Absolutely not. As it was said the melee are still in a tight group and even with the glyph hitting only one extra person per cast it's still better than anything else.

Varuk · 01/05/10, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Tenku

I think you are simply wrong if you regeralize this as fail for all holy paladins. Sry, but mp5 is useless on all real fights where you dont have problem with mana but in same scenarios crit can be at least sometimes usefull (when not full overheal or as HL glyph help in aoe scenarios ).

I tried few gear choices crit/mp5 (including mail mp5 ones

), including checking logs during my ToC25GC clearings and result was clear. There was no need for prefering mp5 on gear over crit(int+number of sockets+haste is more important than mp5/crit choice on gear, sp is near same and for hhl pala nothing special)(i am haste hungry even over FoL cap due to my assigned role and enough mana).
My real raid "discoveries"
1. No problem with mana on those fights regardless of using mp5 or crit gear setup
2. Mana gain on spam intensive fights - weaving meele for mana gain procs between casts + replenishment effect(and innervate from feral in emergency case of need if other healers dying during encounter) is so much more than any other form of mana gain (crit/mp5) that you rly dont care which item you get first (crit or mp5 one) in relation to mana management
3. Only 2 healing intensive fights for me as HL pala are Twins(clump tactic) and Anu25HC (we are only healers HL+FL pala for 2 tanks MT+OT)
During Twins with this tactic you have heavy raid dmg and HL glyph healing gain rly nice from crit gear(last kill i finished with more than 1/3 mana in mostly crit gear)
During Anu25HC mana outside of last phase is not even thing that you need to watch becouse you will end with full mana always before next adds wave spawn(not even urgent need for using DP). And during last phase you need as much burst as possible to get OT up fast for adds from few k health to top and keep nonstop spam till adds wave dead or when tanks get PC(dont forget we are basicaly only 2 healers for tanks) so crit is rly usable too. You have all your CD rdy for p3 so with decent raid dps and without mistakes with overhealing raid, you finish fight without mana problems (and without need for DP too ofc).

So question is why are ppl so fanatic about differences between crit or mp5 regardless of fact that most time this difference on encountersd is not enough(and can be both way bad or good) and you can simply have few sidegear pieces for special encounters or assigned healing roles. Calling paladins bad names only becouse they take crit set helm over badges helm when you even dont know why they choosed one over another is showing us that you simply use guidelines on EJ as god words instead of own thinking about how to apply them in different encounters/situations.

Your whole argument stems on the fact that you feel you have enough mana.

Okay. You have enough mana? Gem haste and wear crit. Knock yourself out. The rest of us, on the other hand, are going to continue to stack mana because it allows us to spam more.

No, you don't need more mana to spam as much as we do now, but if we want to spam more, we will need mana. Until you have enough mana to cast 30 holy lights per minute, more mana will increase your viability as a holy paladin far more than more throughput will. (And no, you are not casting 30 HLPM; chances are you're casting 15 and just thinking you're spamming hard. Check your parses, divide the number of HLs cast by the duration of the fight in minutes. If it's under 20, you aren't pushing your mana pool to the limit and of course you think you have enough mana.)

CrazyScot · 01/05/10, 1:03 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

You could do a macro like

/cancelaura Divine Plea 
/cast Divine Plea

and then just hit the keybind again to cancel. I don't like that macro personally because I spam my buttons, so I would quickly cancel Plea when I likely didn't mean to.

I don't know about others but I have my Divine Plea cancellation tied into my Holy Shock. It means in the rare times I used to use plea in Ulduar I would just Holy Light (if casting) -> Holy Shock/Cancel -> Holy Light, being haste capped which every single holy paladin should be means that you get approx 7k to mitigate the burst into a 12kish heal 2.5s later, I very very rarely saw a tank die in this time. The benefit also being that it means you can proc IoL for a little extra burst healing (I understand the RNG of this statement).

It also means you can cancel the plea at the start of a holy light cast without causing the heal to go off.

Sidguard · 01/05/10, 7:35 PM

In regards to the Anub'arak tricks section, I have found the best time to do stuff like SS refresh, judge, etc etc just as he is emerges and he spends several seconds running towards the tank. Additionally, I found it safe to divine plea if you watch for freezing slash and plea just after it.

Fivedkpminus · 01/05/10, 7:35 PM

Originally Posted by Tenku

I think you are simply wrong if you regeralize this as fail for all holy paladins. Sry, but mp5 is useless on all real fights where you dont have problem with mana but in same scenarios crit can be at least sometimes usefull (when not full overheal or as HL glyph help in aoe scenarios ).

I tried few gear choices crit/mp5 (including mail mp5 ones

), including checking logs during my ToC25GC clearings and result was clear. There was no need for prefering mp5 on gear over crit(int+number of sockets+haste is more important than mp5/crit choice on gear, sp is near same and for hhl pala nothing special)(i am haste hungry even over FoL cap due to my assigned role and enough mana).
My real raid "discoveries"
1. No problem with mana on those fights regardless of using mp5 or crit gear setup
2. Mana gain on spam intensive fights - weaving meele for mana gain procs between casts + replenishment effect(and innervate from feral in emergency case of need if other healers dying during encounter) is so much more than any other form of mana gain (crit/mp5) that you rly dont care which item you get first (crit or mp5 one) in relation to mana management
3. Only 2 healing intensive fights for me as HL pala are Twins(clump tactic) and Anu25HC (we are only healers HL+FL pala for 2 tanks MT+OT)
During Twins with this tactic you have heavy raid dmg and HL glyph healing gain rly nice from crit gear(last kill i finished with more than 1/3 mana in mostly crit gear)
During Anu25HC mana outside of last phase is not even thing that you need to watch becouse you will end with full mana always before next adds wave spawn(not even urgent need for using DP). And during last phase you need as much burst as possible to get OT up fast for adds from few k health to top and keep nonstop spam till adds wave dead or when tanks get PC(dont forget we are basicaly only 2 healers for tanks) so crit is rly usable too. You have all your CD rdy for p3 so with decent raid dps and without mistakes with overhealing raid, you finish fight without mana problems (and without need for DP too ofc).

So question is why are ppl so fanatic about differences between crit or mp5 regardless of fact that most time this difference on encountersd is not enough(and can be both way bad or good) and you can simply have few sidegear pieces for special encounters or assigned healing roles. Calling paladins bad names only becouse they take crit set helm over badges helm when you even dont know why they choosed one over another is showing us that you simply use guidelines on EJ as god words instead of own thinking about how to apply them in different encounters/situations.

We would obviously have to see your logs. Mp5 owns Crit by a bit. I don't know how you can't call Icehowl or Gormok on NRB, healing intensive on the tank when it is. (Since you should be spamming HL full time on your tanks). Crit is never reliable thats the big problem. You cannot guarantee that you'll get a crit heal unless you use Divine Favor. Also, i seriously doubt that you end with full Mana at the end of the anub'ruak fight...... unless you have like 3340 mp5 and get spammed with Innervates.
Melee Weaving is also very difficult to do. I don't know how you melee weaved then started up a HL. Most spells reset the swing timer.

Varuk · 01/06/10, 1:40 AM

Originally Posted by Fivedkpminus

We would obviously have to see your logs. Mp5 owns Crit by a bit. I don't know how you can't call Icehowl or Gormok on NRB, healing intensive on the tank when it is. (Since you should be spamming HL full time on your tanks). Crit is never reliable thats the big problem. You cannot guarantee that you'll get a crit heal unless you use Divine Favor. Also, i seriously doubt that you end with full Mana at the end of the anub'ruak fight...... unless you have like 3340 mp5 and get spammed with Innervates.
Melee Weaving is also very difficult to do. I don't know how you melee weaved then started up a HL. Most spells reset the swing timer.

There isn't any log you can possibly show that places crit above mp5. Even if you cast 60 holy lights a minute -- that is, hard capped on haste and non stop spamming -- 1 critical strike rating will only generate 0.416 mp5 while an equal amount of item points of mp5 is worth 0.5 mp5. And that's not even remotely reasonable -- a more reasonable cast rate for a high intensity fight is roughly 26 HLPM, 10 FoLPM and 2 HSPM, which gives 1 crit rating = 0.2 mp5. It would take a cast rate of 72 holy lights per minute for critical strike rating to generate as much mana as mp5 does per item point.

Yes, crit gives throughput, but extremely small amounts of actual effective throughput. If you feel you have too much mana and want more throughput, I recommend you start with swapping haste gems out for int gems -- not wholesale, but by swapping just one int gem for a haste gem you'll get the same amount of throughput as swapping an entire piece of haste/mp5 gear for haste/crit at the cost of less actual mana. In the end, it is my honest opinion that swapping mp5 to crit is less throughput gained per ounce of lost mana regen than swapping int to haste is -- that's how big the gap is there.

Edit for clarification: The formula for calculating the mp5 value of crit is here:
(HLPM*382.2*0.0002178*1/12) + (FoLPM*92.1*0.0002178*1/12) + (HSPM*237.3*0.0002178*1/12)
HLPM, FoLPM, and HSPM are the numbers of each spell you cast per minute on average over a fight.
The second number, 382.2, 92.1, and 237.3, are the amount of mana gained per crit for each respective spell
0.00002178 is the additional chance to crit represented as a decimal (1 crit rating adds 0.02178% crit -- for here 100% is numerically 1, though, which is why that percent is divided by 100)
The fourth number is the number of mp5 ticks in a minute -- twelve. It's just altering the "per minute" of the first number into "per 5 seconds".

Chance for an event to happen * Number of attempts * Reward for success * time interval = the net mp5 value of 1 critical strike rating.

TimWischmeier · 01/06/10, 7:15 AM

Originally Posted by CrazyScot

I don't know about others but I have my Divine Plea cancellation tied into my Holy Shock. It means in the rare times I used to use plea in Ulduar I would just Holy Light (if casting) -> Holy Shock/Cancel -> Holy Light, being haste capped which every single holy paladin should be means that you get approx 7k to mitigate the burst into a 12kish heal 2.5s later, I very very rarely saw a tank die in this time. The benefit also being that it means you can proc IoL for a little extra burst healing (I understand the RNG of this statement).

It also means you can cancel the plea at the start of a holy light cast without causing the heal to go off.

I think this is a bad strategy. If you really plea at the wrong time and have to cancel it, macroing it to holy shock means the following: Your unpleaded HS hits for as much as a pleaded HL. Then you have to wait another 1.3 seconds (if grace is up; if not, it's about 2.5 seconds) seconds until your next heal hits.

I think it is better to start casting HL and cancel DP shortly before the cast finishes (it does not interrupt the cast). That way you don't lose time as in the above scenario (you can cancel-cast HL all the time if you like to) and you even have the chance of getting another tick of DP.

CrazyScot · 01/06/10, 7:55 AM

Originally Posted by TimWischmeier

I think this is a bad strategy. If you really plea at the wrong time and have to cancel it, macroing it to holy shock means the following: Your unpleaded HS hits for as much as a pleaded HL. Then you have to wait another 1.3 seconds (if grace is up; if not, it's about 2.5 seconds) seconds until your next heal hits.

I think it is better to start casting HL and cancel DP shortly before the cast finishes (it does not interrupt the cast). That way you don't lose time as in the above scenario (you can cancel-cast HL all the time if you like to) and you even have the chance of getting another tick of DP.

In a situation where you are the sole healer on a tank I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying and perhaps I should have explained further. When you consider HoTs rolling on the tank, other healers and passive healing, you are just looking to quickly top the tank up before the next hit, I always found that in 90% of situations a holy shock was more than enough to get the tank up to keep him alive for less mana and my Holy Light cast afterwards would be mostly effective healing; And for me personally to be pleaing it means I really needed mana (Because if you can get in melee then you really don't have to ever plea if played properly). You also might consider that on certain occassions that 1.3s cast of Holy Light might not be quick enough to keep the tank up, if the spike came from a boss special ability or other random source of damage where you don't have that time to keep to cast another heal.

Also take into account the previous heal being cast before the Holy Shock which is a invariably going to be plea'd Holy Light, with the Unplead Holy Shock you're hitting with a normal unplea'd sized heal on the tank.

I'm not going to offer this idea as being the best, but it certainly worked for my playstyle where I rarely Plea'd and I will admit not being up to date with current content as I have stopped raiding with my paladin before ToC release. I still don't see any problem with it as very few bosses hit as hard as Thorim did at say 8 stacks when at times I was forced into HL spam with Plea up.