Cataclysm Paladin Changes - Page 5

Nätion · 06/06/10, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Zalinda

The problem is that not all abilities scale linearly to the same degree, and this is especially true when you want to 'experiment' with special effects like TAJ, shadowmourne proc, etc.

Early in Wotlk, we had CS > J priorities. All through Wotlk the actual mechanic (FSCS) hasn't changed, although changes in gear has caused the priorities to change.

Trying to balance all classes and all specs to do 'more or less' the same DPS, healing and tanking is a tough nut to crack as it is with the narrow gear options they are assuming now. Not all abilities scale off the same stats in the same way afterall. This means that somewhere along the line, if you keep adding more and more stats, something is going to go out of whack.

With the 10/25 split and the normal/heroic split, and the need to make gear upgrades valuable enough (read: make players pay their subs to get it), blizzard ended up having several tiers more than they had worked their balance around. So some abilities for some classes with specific gearing combo's end up deviating enough from the balance medium to end up being OP (or UP).

Just scaling everything linearly would be possible, but it would also be a lot less 'interesting' as blizzard points out themselves often enough. Just remove all stats from gear and just add a single stat : "increases your damage, healing, mitigation and survival by X%".
Making all abilities scale linearly would end up being just that, even if they ended up obfuscating it behind stats such as strength/agility etc it would still loose a lot of what makes epics fun today.

While that may be true in a small way, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the majority of the changes to the FCFS have little to do with the level of stats on gear themselves, but more so set bonuses and changes to mechanics. For instance, the loss of seal of blood and it's replacement with the new seal of vengeance, as they do differing amounts of damage in both seal procs and judgements, the changes to CS, which increased it's value if used on cooldown, but decreased it if pushed to the 4.5s cd that it usually sees. Any set bonuses that modify only a single skill attack, make that attack more valuable in the rotation. So, while the basic idea of FCFS has not changed, the priority order has, but due to these things rather than stats from gear, and while stats could cause a change to the rotation at certain levels of gear, it has much less of an impact.

Our scaling is much more linear than implied, and while I am unsure about other specs, I would find it difficult to believe that most are not more or less similar. The problem is introduced with the set bonuses (for the fun aspect), which cause the scaling to deter from it's relatively linear path and/or changes to spells, abilities, or talents, let alone specialty items.

Charmin · 06/19/10, 11:55 PM

World Of Warcraft: Cataclysm Video Game, Big Changes Interview HD | Game Trailers & Videos | GameTrailers.com

This isn't anything concrete, but our old friend Ghostcrawler acknowledges when speaking on class changes for Cata that both Protection and Retribution Paladins "don't have enough kind of going on" in this video around the 2:50 mark; I only post this because he makes similar marks in regards to the Shaman, Hunter, and Warlock changes.

It may be telling that we have a little more coming our way than, at least I, originally thought.

Glutton · 07/02/10, 4:42 AM

Since the NDA has been lifted, here's a comprehensive list of Retribution relevant changes in the Cataclysm closed beta that I've been able to observe so far. Retribution's proper Cataclysm talent and ability revamp hasn't occurred yet, although I would expect it within the next month.

Consecration

Can now crit at 150% damage. Uses spell crit table.
Damage calculation (per tick) has been decreased from 4% of AP and SP to 2% of AP and SP.
Duration has been increased from 8 seconds to 15 seconds. Cooldown remains 8 seconds.

Crusader Strike

Crusader Strike is now a baseline ability.
Damage calculation has been increased from 75% to 100% of weapon damage.
Improved Crusader Strike increases the damage done by 10%. Presumably a placeholder; the talent is broken/bugged and no effect on Crusader Strike damage when talented.

Divine Storm

Damage calculation has been decreased from 110% to 55% of weapon damage.
No longer procs seals.
The target cap of 4 has been removed; now can hit an unlimited amount of targets.

Exorcism

Damage calculation and cooldown are unchanged relative to live.

Hammer of Wrath

Damage calculation and cooldown are unchanged relative to live.

Hand of Reckoning

Damage calculation and cooldown are unchanged relative to live.
Can now proc seals. Presumably a bug.

Holy Shock

Holy Shock is now a baseline ability.
Damage currently scales with 43% of SP and 0% of AP; 6 second cooldown.
Healing Light (Tier 2 talent, Holy tree) now increases the damage of Holy Shock by 4/8/12%.
Sanctified Light (increases Holy Shock critical strike chance by 5/10/15%) has been moved from Tier 5 Holy to Tier 4 Holy. At level 85 it may be a viable DPS talent if the Retribution tree remains bare bones.

Holy Wrath

Damage calculation and cooldown are unchanged relative to live.

Holy Vengeance

Can now crit at 150% damage. Uses melee crit table.
Damage calculation is unchanged relative to live.

Judgement

Seals of the Pure now increases the damage of Judgement of Command/Light/Wisdom/Justice.
Sanctified Light (increases Judgement critical strike by chance 5/10/15%) has been moved from Tier 5 Holy to Tier 4 Holy. At level 85 it may be a viable DPS talent if the Retribution tree remains bare bones.
The Judgement of Light healing debuff has been decreased from 2% to 1% of maximum HP.

Seals

Seals of the Pure now increases the damage of Seal of Command.
Divine Storm no longer procs seals.

Righteous Vengeance

Can now crit at 150% damage. Uses melee crit table.
Damage calculation is unchanged relative to live.

General

All partial resists on spells have been removed.
Swift Retribution is now identical to Windfury or Icy Talons (20% melee and ranged haste.) All 3% haste buffs have been eliminated.
Vindication and all other AP debuffs now decrease physical damage taken by 10%.
Heart of the Crusader and all other 3% crit debuffs are slated for removal.
Blessing of Might has been merged with Blessing of Wisdom. All static AP buffs have been eliminated. Provides 10% AP and 249 MP5. One cast now buffs all party/raid members.
Blessing of Kings now increases AGI, INT, STA, and STR by 5% and all magical resistances by 214. One cast now buffs all party/raid members.
Fire, Frost, and Shadow Auras have been merged into a single Resistance Aura. Doesn't stack with Blessing of Kings' resistance component.
Retribution Aura provides 40% melee haste while all other auras provide 20% melee haste when Swift Retribution is talented. Presumably a bug.
Dragonkin has been added as an additional race for the conditional portion of the Crusade talent.

Exemplar · 07/02/10, 8:44 AM

Duration has been increased from 8 seconds to 15 seconds. Cooldown remains 8 seconds.

Question on how this (currently) works mechanically. Recasting before 15 seconds removes the initial Consecration, or can you have two independent (or overlapping) Consecration for up to 7 seconds?

• Zurm · 07/02/10, 8:46 AM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Question on how this (currently) works mechanically. Recasting before 15 seconds removes the initial Consecration, or can you have two independent (or overlapping) Consecration for up to 7 seconds?

It doesn't overlap. Also, in the default UI there is a new icon near your character while consecrate is ticking (with a timer). If you right-click it, the consecrate is "killed".

Originally Posted by Glutton

Hand of Reckoning

Damage calculation and cooldown are unchanged relative to live.
Can now proc seals. Presumably a bug.

From my quick testing on the target dummy yesterday, this appears to be fixed now. I could be wrong though, this was a quick cycle of tests before my raid last night.

Also to reinforce what Glutton/Bluedeep said, Holy Shock is actually quite substantial right now. This is obviously in part due to the 3rd tier retribution mastery (+% holy damage), but it's still a little surprising to me. With a 6 second cooldown and range, it doesn't seem to fit with retribution. I guess we'll have to see how they handle it after the retribution revamp.

Glutton · 07/02/10, 9:33 AM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Question on how this (currently) works mechanically. Recasting before 15 seconds removes the initial Consecration, or can you have two independent (or overlapping) Consecration for up to 7 seconds?

The first Consecration is removed after the second is cast. Blizzard has stated that they want to make Retribution's rotation "less forgiving." Seems like this is one small step in that direction. Although it may be possible for a mod like CLCRET to put other abilities at a higher priority when Consecration has 5 or less seconds left on its duration.

Agusta · 07/02/10, 9:53 AM

Originally Posted by Zurm

Also to reinforce what Glutton/Bluedeep said, Holy Shock is actually quite substantial right now. This is obviously in part due to the 3rd tier retribution mastery (+% holy damage), but it's still a little surprising to me. With a 6 second cooldown and range, it doesn't seem to fit with retribution. I guess we'll have to see how they handle it after the retribution revamp.

How is it on the mana side ? Could it be used in a rotation ?

• Zurm · 07/02/10, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Agusta

How is it on the mana side ? Could it be used in a rotation ?

Seemed like it was quite sustainable.

Again my testing was limited to a target dummy, so I didn't have full raid buffs. Also, we still don't have the initial revamp so we have no idea how other abilities and their costs would affect this. It's too early to tell.

Exemplar · 07/02/10, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Glutton

The first Consecration is removed after the second is cast. Blizzard has stated that they want to make Retribution's rotation "less forgiving." Seems like this is one small step in that direction. Although it may be possible for a mod like CLCRET to put other abilities at a higher priority when Consecration has 5 or less seconds left on its duration.

Seems odd. 10 (8 glyphed) sec cooldown and 15 sec duration is more forgiving, not less (barring mana). If you have enough mana and the free GCD, refreshing early is fine. Otherwise you have 7 extra seconds to refresh the cast. Right now we don't have 100% up time from when it ends and Judgement, CS, or DS are available and being prioritized. With 15 seconds you could have Consecration come off of CD, then use multiple abilities, use Consecration all before the first ends and you lose coverage.

That ability to cancel early that Zurm mentioned is really cool. I can see it as especially useful for Prot when something suddenly runs in that needs CC - you can purge the Consecration so it won't break.

• frmorrison · 07/02/10, 11:03 AM

With the weakening of Divine Storm and once you stack mastery, Holy Shock is going to scale nicely. I am glad the spell is being worked on to be a viable spell for Ret dps, since all the other melee have had better ranged dps attacks previously. The only issue with Shock is spell miss (the 3% spell hit buff is going away). This isn't much of an issue with PvP though.

Glutton · 07/02/10, 11:09 AM

Mana may be one issue. Holy Shock is no slouch at 18% of base MP. That's slightly less than Consecration (22%), but more than Divine Storm (12%.) Also, its 6 second cooldown can be further decreased to 5 seconds with a major glyph.

The other issue is going to be prioritization. Holy Shock is likely going to be part of our normal rotation. With six abilities above 20% HP and seven abilities below 20% HP I imagine we'll be more GCD locked than on live. I imagine it would be a DPS gain to use our lowest priority ability (Divine Storm at 55% dmg) rather than refresh Consecration with say 3 seconds left on its duration. Slightly less faceroll than our current rotation where cooldowns and durations all neatly line up.

I'd disagree on Holy Shock scaling too well - it's 43% SP and 0% AP. Unless Blizzard changes its modifiers, I'd imagine it slides down in priority over time as it has to compete against AP/SP scaling hybrids. Although a gradual increase in mastery over each tier may offset that.

Exemplar · 07/02/10, 12:51 PM

If Sheath of Light is unchanged (most likely) then AP * 30% (Sheath) * 43% (Coefficient) = 12.9% AP. Almost double the damage gain for a melee attack (1 DPS / 14 AP = 7%), so it's easily possible it could beat CS one to one. CS's shorter cooldown could set it ahead, but the Mastery bonus again weighs in favour of Shock.

Current Judgement coefficients beat this cleanly. Exo and Cons coefficients beat it. All Holy, so no disparity from Mastery.

Priority should change in Cataclysm. We'll need finalized cooldowns and coefficents to pick the correct answer. Simply knowing CS is increasing to 100%, DS is dropping (maybe*), and Holy Shock will be a consideration will make an impact.

* -I believe a Blue has stated that, unlike Whirlwind (which in single target fights can be replaced by another keypress to a warrior), Ret's DS is a end talent and they want us to use it in all fights. I recall them saying they were considering a flat damage that is then split if multiple targets are present. So 1 target = full DS to target, 2 targets = 50% to each, 3 = 33%, and so on. If they take this approach, we hopefully would get more than 55% weapon damage on a single target.

Redcape · 07/02/10, 1:17 PM

I have found some very interesting things on the mmo-champ data.

Light Elementium Chestguard - Items - Sigrie
Light Elementium Belt - Items - Sigrie

Both of these are plate crafted items with Int/Sta/Hit/Mastery itemized. A couple of possibilities are that Holy paladins will have a use for hit, the Int or Hit are a mistake and should be changed, or Ret is getting a Int -> AP conversion and will be able to use Int gear. I don't know which of these might be right at the moment but if anyone finds anything to support one of these theories it could be fairly important.

Exemplar · 07/02/10, 2:09 PM

Originally Posted by Redcape

... or Ret is getting a Int -> AP conversion and will be able to use Int gear.

Unlikely. Int = Spellpower, there is no separate spellpower stat. So you'd have a weird confluence of AP -> SP from Sheath and toss an Int -> AP translation and you'd have Int becoming Spellpower and AP, the AP becoming more Spellpower. Effectively an enhanced % modifier to Int->SP. That does scary stuff to balance - we've always applauded the movement away from % modifiers.

I'd suspect mis-itemization. They've said Healers want Spirit, Caster DPS wants Hit, but never the twain shall meet (unless wearing substandard gear from sheer iLvl, or with "reforged" stat).

Durinix · 07/02/10, 2:25 PM

Holy is getting some dps tools so that gear could be to support that. For example if they made holy light like the Warcraft 3 paladin healing ability (dealt half damage to undead but they could make it all targets for wow).

That said, it's more likely it's a mistake. Blizzard is unlikely to make another sort of plate item (giving one spec of one class two types of drop). Although, as it is craftable, there's no issue with making weird niche items.

It would be kinda cool to go out farming with 2s (ignoring haste) holy lights hitting for 6-8k.

Bonestorm · 07/02/10, 8:53 PM

Originally Posted by Redcape

I have found some very interesting things on the mmo-champ data.

Light Elementium Chestguard - Items - Sigrie
Light Elementium Belt - Items - Sigrie

Both of these are plate crafted items with Int/Sta/Hit/Mastery itemized. A couple of possibilities are that Holy paladins will have a use for hit, the Int or Hit are a mistake and should be changed, or Ret is getting a Int -> AP conversion and will be able to use Int gear. I don't know which of these might be right at the moment but if anyone finds anything to support one of these theories it could be fairly important.

There is a lot of gear with missing stats, too many stats, combinations of stats that don't make any sense, etc. I wouldn't put much thought into it yet.

EvadDeWahr · 07/02/10, 9:02 PM

There are blue posts saying that they want everyone to have the ability to DPS during healing down time. But the problem with hit is that you cannot swap during fights. So unless Shockadin becomes viable in some circumstances I would have to agree that it is an experiment/mistake.
Post copied from mmo

Healing Model in Cataclysm
We've had many threads on this topic already, some with blue posts, so I feel like I'm starting to sound like the proverbial broken record here, but I'll give it a go one more time:

-- We want to add talents that are more than just +healing. You've got plenty of those.
-- There are opportunities for *every* healer to dps.
-- Opportunity 1. Leveling or soloing. Not every healer wants to use their dual spec on say Elemental or Shadow.
-- Opportunity 2. PvP. Good healers, especially priests in today's game, can contribute a lot of damage.
-- Opportunity 3. Dungeons. This is particularly true when the content is easy and you want to get through it quickly. Healing more doesn't make things go any faster. Dealing damage does.
-- Opportunity 4. Raids. No matter how challenging the content, there are moments when nobody is taking damage and you can spare the mana. Your choices are do nothing, tab out to YouTube, or maybe do a little damage.
-- If you are the kind of healer that never, ever, ever wants to do damage under any circumstances, then don't. You'll have choices to avoid anything dps-related.
-- I also don't think you'll be expected to dps. Your 2-3 dps talents aren't going to let you compete with a mage. There are very few fights balanced along such a razor's edge that your dps will contribute more than say what the rogue and lock could add if they just stepped it up a bit. Besides, in those really challenging fights, you probably are going to have to devote all of your GCDs and mana towards actual healing.

Healing Hands:
Looks like a button you want to press but sparingly.
8 per sec for 10 secs everyone in 10 yards of Paladin for 40% base mana.
So assuming it scales at the same rate of the new super heal (unlikely) Divine Light (50-60 healed 30% base mana)
It will heal someone (including yourself) in range for the full 10 secs for 80. This would mean as long as someone is beside you with both of you with serious damage healing hands would be more efficient then 2 Divine Lights.

Bonestorm · 07/02/10, 9:45 PM

If they want holy paladins to be able to do some nuking in PVE, I'm sure they'll work the hit into the talents like they are with priests.

Kvaern · 07/03/10, 3:12 AM

Originally Posted by Glutton

The other issue is going to be prioritization. Holy Shock is likely going to be part of our normal rotation. With six abilities above 20% HP and seven abilities below 20% HP I imagine we'll be more GCD locked than on live. I imagine it would be a DPS gain to use our lowest priority ability (Divine Storm at 55% dmg) rather than refresh Consecration with say 3 seconds left on its duration. Slightly less faceroll than our current rotation where cooldowns and durations all neatly line up.

Am I the only one who thinks we already have enough DPS abilties to use and adding more buttons onto our rotation isn't the right way to go about making the spec more interesting to play?

I'd much rather see some synergy/proc/rampup interaction between our current amount of DPS abilities and have them reserve new cata buttons for utility.

Malleus · 07/03/10, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Kvaern

Am I the only one who thinks we already have enough DPS abilties to use and adding more buttons onto our rotation isn't the right way to go about making the spec more interesting to play?

The intent as I've been given to understand it is to have Retris think about what ability they should use in the immediate context of the fight instead of automatically mashing the highest DPS ability that is off cooldown. I can think of a number of scenarios where I would rather have Holy Shock than Divine Storm, most notable being situations where there are multiple mobs but focusing fire on a single target is more important (e.g. Saurfang and his Blood Beasts). It also reduces the problems Retris have with mobility fights by giving us an attack with a range above 10 yards.

Another point to consider is that as the trees stand, speccing for Healing Light and Sanctified Light is readily possible. This will give HS an additional 12% base damage and 15% chance to crit, and with enemies probably not being mainly Undead in Cata Exorcism is going to lose its automatic crit. If we can afford the increased mana expenditure, HS may well replace Exo in the rotation. Sanctified Light currently also gives 15% crit to Judgement, so it's not going to be a force to take it.

Aurrius · 07/03/10, 12:20 PM

But how would we get the necessary talents in Ret, Divine Strength in Prot ánd the talents in Holy that increase Holy Shock's damage? I may be stupid, but I just can't seem to figure it out without dropping a few good talents in Ret.

Nisall · 07/03/10, 2:06 PM

As a base you would get something like this WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie

The one point in Swift Retribution is just to get 50 points to reach DS. So basically this leaves 3 points to put into BoM, Vindication or Swift Retribution. With the removal/changes to all the raid buffs there shouldn't be any need to talent all 3.

One fairly easy solution to possible mana problems caused using shock is making Illumination work on the dmg side of shocks as well this would also tie in nicely in picking talents to reach Sanctified Light.

♦ Kurisu · 07/03/10, 2:09 PM

There wouldn't be a Blessing of Might talent, least there shouldn't be one at the end of of it all also if it helps every tank has demo shout now, DKs have it through a blood talent called Hemorhaggic Fever.

• frmorrison · 07/03/10, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by Nisall

As a base you would get something like this WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie

The one point in Swift Retribution is just to get 50 points to reach DS. So basically this leaves 3 points to put into BoM, Vindication or Swift Retribution. With the removal/changes to all the raid buffs there shouldn't be any need to talent all 3.

One fairly easy solution to possible mana problems caused using shock is making Illumination work on the dmg side of shocks as well this would also tie in nicely in picking talents to reach Sanctified Light.

The Paladin trees have been barely touched, so guessing about what talents to pick isn't productive. Some ones that will be removed (heart of the crusader and imp BoM). I would assume once the talents are final, a Ret can get 18 in Holy to get the Shock damage increase and getting the raid buffs.

Zalinda · 07/05/10, 4:30 AM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

* -I believe a Blue has stated that, unlike Whirlwind (which in single target fights can be replaced by another keypress to a warrior), Ret's DS is a end talent and they want us to use it in all fights. I recall them saying they were considering a flat damage that is then split if multiple targets are present. So 1 target = full DS to target, 2 targets = 50% to each, 3 = 33%, and so on. If they take this approach, we hopefully would get more than 55% weapon damage on a single target.

I'm finding this remark somewhat confusing. Yes, being an end talent, you'd expect it to be used "always". At the same time, I also recall a blue saying that they didn't like ret's single target dps to have so much AOE added 'free'. And in some fights, this aoe component is actually annoying, or even dangerous. The option to not using DS nor Cons, is (at current) a serious drop in DPS done on the single target.

I also recall a blue stating (probably in the same post) they wanted a more clear distinction between single target rotation and AOE dps rotation.

It wouldn't surprise me that the short CD on holy shock and it's fairly intensive mana cost are the means to arrange that to happen. Using DS and Cons in a single target fight where you also want to use HS leading to you ending OOM before the fight is over?