Shadowpriest FAQ for 4.0 - Page 11

Elimbras · 11/11/10, 5:50 PM

Originally Posted by Bristine

No, if I continue to not micro manage my DoTs then it won't be the same. BL is 40 seconds, DP ticks for 24 seconds, if I miss the first 23 seconds of BL then I only get 24 seconds of it on the second DP. That is of course worst case scenario, but it is perfectly feasible. Then, even if I do re-up for haste there's no guarantee I get more ticks to make up for the DPS loss of not casting MB while letting DoTs tick at non-buffed rate.

Elimbras can't seem to count to forty, since you do NOT get that buffed DoT time back automatically. It isn't "I lose 16 seconds at the beginning of the buff and get it back at the end" I lose 16 seconds at the beginning and get a grand total of 24 hasted DoT seconds unless I re-apply at the end losing potential damage from MF.

I'll try to make this as clear as possible: I DP then BL hits. I re DP as usual and get 24 seconds of buffed time, as when I would reapply DP again as usual BL would be over. I don't get that time back. At best I can reapply DP when BL starts and then normally during BL, then again right before it fades giving me a potential 72 seconds of buffed DP at the cost of the three GCD's I would spend on my normal rotation.

Well, if you want to consider only the worst case, then yes, any amount of randomness will be called a nerf.
In the scenario you presented, effectively, the non-automatic refresh is a loss of dps. But in a as likely scenario, BL hits, and then (let's say after 1s) your DP is over. You refresh it, as you should. You get a first full 24s of hasted DP. When the new one is over, it's 25s of BL, and BL is still up. You hit DP a second time, and get a second full set of 24s of hasted DP. You got 48s of hasted DP, out of a 40s duration buff, just by following your classical rotation.

I'm not saying that's this free 8s will be there everytime. Obviously, it won't (and your worst case scenario presents it). But what I claim, with mathematical backing, is that on the average, the nerf and the up compensate. Auto-refresh or not is equal on average if the buff is triggered at a random time, when you follow a dot refresh rule which is independent of buffs. I know how to count to forty, and if you read carefully the post where I made the proof, you'll see that I consider the cases where you'll get only 1 DP in a BL. I've not said that you always get 2. I've just said that in average, you'll get 40s of hasted DP, which is equivalent to the case of auto-update.

thebitterfig · 11/12/10, 12:02 PM

While I think it's pretty clear that Elimbras is mathematically correct (the between-encounter average of non-autoupdating DoTs is equal to the auto-updating), I think it's worth stepping back and gaining a little perspective on this.

Bloodlust is 30% haste, and leading to between 2 and 3 ticks of DP per 24 second cast. Let's just presume that you have enough haste on your gear for BL to add in three additional DP ticks, since that'll work out more cleanly. Going with Elimbras' model of a random start time for Bloodlust where there is a 1/3 chance of having 1 DP hasted and a 2/3 chance of having 2 DP hasted. On average, this would work out to 1/3 * (1*3) + 2/3 * (2*3) = 5 Hasted DP ticks per Bloodlust, which is also the number of hasted ticks we'd every Bloodlust with auto-haste updating DoTs. The difference between the worst-case scenario with current game mechanics and the hypothetical auto-update mechanics that some people have requested is two ticks of DP.

Let's be brutally honest here - mistimed DoT reapplication will probably cause a greater number of lost DP ticks.

Elegen · 11/22/10, 1:14 PM

The devs had put an emphasis on lowering a shadow priest's ramp up time by removing shadow weaving, but the shadow orb revamp with empowered shadow feels like exactly the same thing. It seems like I will be casting SW Pain, MF, MB as an opening sequence, and with bad RNG we might be casting MF more. This seems like it will take at least as long to ramp up as shadow weaving. The damage buff is welcome, but this will end up being an annoyance just like shadow weaving was.

Delacieux · 11/22/10, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by Elegen

The devs had put an emphasis on lowering a shadow priest's ramp up time by removing shadow weaving, but the shadow orb revamp with empowered shadow feels like exactly the same thing. It seems like I will be casting SW Pain, MF, MB as an opening sequence, and with bad RNG we might be casting MF more. This seems like it will take at least as long to ramp up as shadow weaving. The damage buff is welcome, but this will end up being an annoyance just like shadow weaving was.

The damage boost will just update on the rolling dots, so it won't neccesarily change your opening at all. SPriest dmg is doing good, so that change isn't a long awaited buff or something, it just makes mastery less bad than it was before for pve.

Nimiks · 11/22/10, 2:22 PM

The SW:P rolling haste has been fixed on live, on my icc run yesterday the interval between ticks increased after bloodlust fade. That's quite a big dps loss.

Vaelir · 11/23/10, 12:36 PM

I have read the changes for 4.0.3a, and apparently our mindblasts (with orbs) will buff our dots for 15seconds, this is increased by mastery aswell.

- is it worth reforging to mastery now??

Ellyh · 11/23/10, 2:13 PM

No.

Most of the theorycraft I've seen suggests that mastery is now worth about the same as crit rating. Nice but not as good as Haste by about 25%. Current priority should be hit/spirit to cap > int > haste > crit/mastery > hit/spirit beyond cap.

Nimiks · 11/24/10, 5:18 AM

The new mastery effect applies to mind flay too (I just tested it). Reforging crit into mastery could be worth it as mastery now buffs anything but imp DP.

Annue · 11/24/10, 6:57 AM

Ignore this, I was under the impression that beta status got carried on to live.

Nimiks · 11/24/10, 7:57 AM

I guess you mean that mastery rating doesn't buff Empowered Shadows, but I just tested it on a dummy, no proc gear etc, with MF, and adding mastery rating via neutral items (reforged spirit trinkets without procs):

No empowered shadows, 0 mastery : 1535 average ticks
Empowered shadows up, 0 mastery : 1688
Empowered shadows + 72 mastery rating : 1718

The same happens with vt or swp, mastery rating increases dot dmg via empowered shadows. However the damage increase doesn't vary wether you cast your mb at 1 or 3 orbs.

I'm no TC or maths pro and this test is simplistic but well, it's seems reliable.

On a side note MB damage seems reduced by quite a good amount, I'm getting around 5K5 non crits with 3 orbs MB, wich is much less than pre patch. The requirements for the 3% crit dmg meta has been changed too and you must have more blue gems than red, wich is quite impossible unless you have very few to no spirit items. I changed it for the 21 intel/runspeed one + icewalker enchant instead of runspeed, not sure if there is anything better.

Vigil Mortis · 11/24/10, 8:33 AM

I reforged all possible haste and crit into mastery and tested it on a training dummy (80, since boss dummies are now 88). I had a dps+ of about 700.

While the coefficient of the +MB dmg was reduced (from 4.3 to 1.3 I think), each point in mastery buffs all our dots by the same amount (1.3) and this buff is normally constantly applied. Even if you cast a MB without a Orb the buff ticks out about 1s before it's ready again.

Manaefficiency dropped, since less crits means less Shadowfiend, but on 80 still no problem.

Of course all these numbers are not tested too much, only about 6 minutes of casting each, but to me it seems they got the balance about right. Now all thats left is to test it on lvl 85 with the new ratings.

Zorosan · 11/24/10, 9:10 AM

Originally Posted by Vigil Mortis

I reforged all possible haste and crit into mastery and tested it on a training dummy (80, since boss dummies are now 88). I had a dps+ of about 700.

While the coefficient of the +MB dmg was reduced (from 4.3 to 1.3 I think), each point in mastery buffs all our dots by the same amount (1.3) and this buff is normally constantly applied. Even if you cast a MB without a Orb the buff ticks out about 1s before it's ready again.

Manaefficiency dropped, since less crits means less Shadowfiend, but on 80 still no problem.

Of course all these numbers are not tested too much, only about 6 minutes of casting each, but to me it seems they got the balance about right. Now all thats left is to test it on lvl 85 with the new ratings.

I just reforged all my gear too. Have just over 20 mastery. I did two 10min parses, one with mastery and one without.

I noticed about the same 700ish dps increase too.

Empowered Shadow went from 10% to 25%.

Vaelir · 11/24/10, 9:25 AM

Ok i've done a little test for the value of Mastery.
I dps'd the target dummy with 28% haste, 40% crit and 3529 sp (plus 200 from spyglass)
I had an average for 9k dps doing my rotation as usual/

After this i reforged everything to mastery (crit in most cases, and swapped 60haste reforge from each trinket to mastery) This gives me 20 mastery.

The tooltip for Empowered Shadows now states i have a 25% increase in DoT damage (up from 10%)
And i have 20.8% haste, 33.6% crit and the same spellpower as before (3529).

Following the same rotation as before (for around 3mil dmg done) i have no significant change in dps, also if you don't keep the empowered shadows buff up the dps falls by around 2000 (due to less haste/crit from being turned to mastery and no mastery buff).

Therefore mastery is NOT worth it now, as the dps is the same - only with the danger of loosing your Empowered Shadows buff resulting in less dps. Shadow Orbs are random and any points within the fight at which you have no orbs to gain Empowered Shadow you loose dps, meaning having more haste/crit is better than mastery unless you can guarrentee you will have 3x ShadowOrbs every 15seconds. (Unlikely).

It may be worth changing crit to mastery where the item already has haste, but to haste where the item has none already - I have yet to test this theory But changign everything to get maximum Mastery has not worked

A Question to you Brainy People:
Does Empowered Shadows increase the dmg of DoTs already on the target or do they need reapplying when we have the buff to benefit from the damage increase? (SW:P is reapplied through mindflay, but what about DP/VT?)

Lahiri · 11/24/10, 10:53 AM

I noticed an increase too, just not as much as either of you, around 150 dps by going from 8 to 18 mastery, did 3 tests with each gear set lasting 10 minutes. I also didn't reforge haste away if it would put me below the GCD cap.

Elimbras · 11/24/10, 11:49 AM

One point to keep in mind about dummy tests : you're absolutely not in raid environment, especially with regards to crit rate. In raids, I believe you gain 8% of crit (5 with a (fire-mage like) debuff on the target, 3 with a (elemental like) raid buff), plus additionnal intellect from buffs (BoK mainly). This will decrease the value of additionnal crit rating.

For haste, as shadow priests bring the raid spell haste buff, I guess that the main difference is Bloodlust / heroism, which has less impact.

Mastery has no raid buff, and hence has no decreased value in raids compared to target dummies.