Shadowpriest FAQ for 4.0 - Page 12

Overhead · 11/24/10, 1:02 PM

Has anyone tried reforging away from hit, down below the cap? A few weeks ago someone posted that a sim was showing hit as not worthwhile - basically since we're so depending on DoT damage now, the lost GCD (which would be a mind flay) wasn't as much of a loss as you were gaining from extra haste/crit/mastery.

Bowchikabow · 11/24/10, 3:29 PM

Any time you waste a global on a missed spell (be it a DoT, or a nuke), that means you will need to spend ANOTHER gcd attempting to put that DoT or nuke on the target. Consider it this way: if you were hit capped, and you cast VT and DP in succession, they will land. Let us say, for this argument, that DP front-load was a crit. If you were below the hit cap, and missed your VT, you now have to re-cast VT...THEN cast DP, with crit being RNG you most likely wouldn't have gotten that crit. You also lost out on a gcd that would have given you a mind flay, which, since refresh is only 60%, caused you to lose SW: pain. Or even worse, because below the hit cap puts your miss chance at more or less random, it would be possible to lose more than one spell hit in succession. You could have missed on both VT and DP. Not being hit capped also affects your shadowfiend, which affects your mana...(quick mention of masochism talent as well).

The point is, especially now with having to increase your hit in each new tier of content, hit will always be your No1 stat to cap. There is enough RNG in the game all ready that we can't control, no reason to introduce rng into something that we could other control ourselves.

Elimbras · 11/24/10, 9:01 PM

Well, outside the randomness / reaction issue, it makes perfect sense to decrease the value of hit for dot classes. 1% hit increase is not a 1% dps increase, because we can recast our dots when they fail to land. In other words, 1% miss does not leads to 1% downtime of dots, and leads to more than 1% less mind flays. But since dots are more dps than mind flay, we loose less than 1% of our total dps.

Now, hit has a strong advance over other stats, because it has a nice rating ratio value. I don't know if the dot effect is enough for it to catch in a perfect player simulation (no lag, instant recast of dots, etc.). I doubt it will be enough when you take this reaction times into account.

Althor · 11/25/10, 4:57 AM

Results from SimulationCraft 403-2 for the Priest_Shadow_T11_372.simc profile.
*Note*: This includes the recent hotfixes to the Glyph of Shadow Word: Death, Twisted Faith and Shadow Orbs.

The command line I used was:

simc input=Priest_Shadow_T11_372.simc iterations=100000 vary_combat_length=0.2 calculate_scale_factors=1 normalize_scale_factors=1 html=Priest_Shadow_T11_372.html wiki=priest_shadow_t11_372 threads=4

The profile used is here: Priest_Shadow_T11_372.simc - simulationcraft - Project Hosting on Google Code

#!./simc 

priest=Priest_Shadow_T11_372
origin="input=createpriest.simc"
level=85
race=night_elf
use_pre_potion=1
talents=http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=5&tal=032212000000000000000000000000000000000000322032210201222100231
glyphs=shadow_word_death/mind_flay/shadow_word_pain/inner_fire/spirit_tap/fortitude/fading/levitate
actions=flask,type=draconic_mind
actions+=/food,type=seafood_magnifique_feast
actions+=/fortitude
actions+=/inner_fire
actions+=/shadow_form
actions+=/vampiric_embrace
actions+=/snapshot_stats
actions+=/volcanic_potion,if=!in_combat
actions+=/volcanic_potion,if=buff.bloodlust.react|target.time_to_die<=40
actions+=/mind_blast,if=buff.shadow_orb.stack>=1&buff.empowered_shadow.remains<=gcd+0.5
actions+=/shadow_word_pain,if=!ticking|dot.shadow_word_pain.remains<gcd+0.5
actions+=/devouring_plague,if=!ticking|dot.devouring_plague.remains<gcd+0.5
actions+=/stop_moving,health_percentage<=25,if=cooldown.shadow_word_death.remains>=0.2|dot.vampiric_touch.remains<cast_time+0.5
actions+=/vampiric_touch,if=!ticking|dot.vampiric_touch.remains<cast_time+0.5
actions+=/start_moving,health_percentage<=25,if=cooldown.shadow_word_death.remains<=0.1
actions+=/dark_archangel,if=buff.dark_evangelism.stack>=5&dot.vampiric_touch.remains>5&dot.devouring_plague.remains>5
actions+=/shadow_word_death,health_percentage<=25
actions+=/shadow_fiend
actions+=/mind_blast,if=buff.shadow_orb.stack>=1
actions+=/mind_flay
actions+=/devouring_plague,moving=1
actions+=/shadow_word_death,moving=1
actions+=/dispersion
head=crown_of_the_twilight_queen,type=cloth,stats=351int_617sta_244haste_264crit_1136armor,gems=ember_shadowspirit_20int_20spi_30int,enchant=60int_35crit
neck=wyrmbreakers_amulet,heroic=1,stats=215int_322sta_143spi_143crit
shoulders=mercurial_shoulderwraps,heroic=1,type=cloth,stats=266int_429sta_171spi_191haste_1009armor,gems=67int_10haste,enchant=50int_25haste
chest=mercurial_vestment,heroic=1,type=cloth,stats=345int_578sta_247crit_227haste_1346armor,gems=67int_20int_20spi_20int,enchant=20all
waist=xtron_duct_tape,heroic=1,type=cloth,stats=266int_429sta_191spi_171crit_757armor,gems=20int_20haste_40int_10int
legs=mercurial_leggings,heroic=1,type=cloth,stats=345int_578sta_217spi_257haste_1177armor,gems=20int_20haste_40int_20int,enchant=95int_55spi
feet=treads_of_liquid_ice,heroic=1,type=cloth,stats=266int_429sta_171spi_191mastery_925armor,reforge=mastery_haste,gems=40int,enchant=35mastery
wrists=bracers_of_the_dark_mother,type=cloth,stats=209int_344sta_133spi_153mastery_612armor,gems=40int,enchant=65haste
hands=mercurial_gloves,heroic=1,type=cloth,stats=266int_429sta_171crit_191mastery_841armor,reforge=mastery_spi,gems=40int,enchant=65mastery
finger1=security_measure_alpha,heroic=1,stats=215int_322sta_143spi_143crit,reforge=crit_hit,enchant=40int
finger2=signet_of_the_fifth_circle,heroic=1,stats=215int_322sta_143mastery_143haste,reforge=mastery_spi,enchant=40int
trinket1=theralions_mirror,heroic=1,stats=363int,equip=onharmfulcast_2178mastery_10%_20dur_100cd
trinket2=heart_of_ignacious,heroic=1
back=shroud_of_endless_grief,stats=209int_344sta_153mastery_133haste_699armor,reforge=mastery_spi,gems=67int,enchant=50int
main_hand=twilights_hammer,heroic=1,stats=165int_248sta_110crit_110haste_2207sp,enchant=power_torrent,weapon=mace_2.30speed_840min_1560max
off_hand=book_of_binding_will,heroic=1,stats=215int_322sta_143haste_143hit,reforge=hit_spi,enchant=100int
ranged=finkles_mixer_upper,heroic=1,stats=121int_181sta_81spi_81mastery,reforge=mastery_haste
# Gear Summary
# gear_strength=20
# gear_agility=20
# gear_stamina=5914
# gear_intellect=5102
# gear_spirit=1616
# gear_spell_power=2207
# gear_hit_rating=143
# gear_crit_rating=1227
# gear_haste_rating=1696
# gear_mastery_rating=710
# gear_armor=8502
# meta_gem=ember_shadowspirit
# tier11_2pc_caster=1
# tier11_4pc_caster=1
# trinket2=heart_of_ignacious,heroic=1
# main_hand=twilights_hammer,heroic=1,weapon=mace_2.30speed_840min_1560max,enchant=power_torrent

The results can be found here: Priest_Shadow_T11_372 - simulationcraft - Project Hosting on Google Code

The Scale Factors are:

 	              Int 	   Spi 	   SP 	    Hit       Crit 	Haste 	 Mastery
Scale Factors 	      2.9205     1.0923    2.3166   1.0878    1.1800 	1.4739 	 1.1329
Normalized 	      1.0000     0.3732    0.7935   0.3741    0.4040    0.5031   0.3857

Cyanotical · 11/25/10, 5:23 AM

Is there a change in the stat weight of mastery when haste is short of adding another dot tick?

Edit: What I mean is if you are 200 haste above adding your current number of dot ticks, but 100 short of adding another, is it worth reforging that 200 haste into mastery for a 1 or 2 percent increase to your dot damage?

Bowchikabow · 11/25/10, 8:42 AM

Althor, while looking over your simcraft profile, I noticed that you had Crown of the twilight Queen for head slot, and used legs for the 4th Tier pc. How important is it, in your opinion, that we avoid that Tier pc? Are there any equivalent substitutions?

Nimiks · 11/25/10, 10:30 AM

The gloves are the only T11 piece without haste, it may be better to swap them and keep the head.
Brackish Gloves - Item - World of Warcraft may be a viable option, but I guess the head was used because of the higher ilvl (Sinestra's loot, slightly higher than other heroic bosses).

Althor · 11/25/10, 3:16 PM

There are likely a number of tweaks that can be done to the BiS profile. At this stage it was more a case of a "get something out there".
That said for generating this gear choice I calculated scale factors using the ilvl 359 set and then used Wowhead's gear filter to choose what appeared to be the best items. I'm sure however that with some testing people here can come up with some better choices for the slots as well as maybe an improved action list.

TrlstanC · 11/25/10, 4:03 PM

Am I reading the results correctly, that hit is now basically tied with spirit as the worst stat?

Delacieux · 11/25/10, 5:19 PM

Originally Posted by TrlstanC

Am I reading the results correctly, that hit is now basically tied with spirit as the worst stat?

That´s strange. No matter how I look at the stats on the sim sheet, hit seems to be the second to lowest stat. But the sheet says that mindflay made the biggest part out of the damage, and mindflay is no dot thus it will need hitcap to be most efficient. Also the sheet used the current hitcap on stats for the damage which would made no sense if hit is that bad - you would just reforge it, no?

Althor · 11/25/10, 8:46 PM

There are a number of reasons for the reduction in value of +hit rating (and spirit).
First, we have changed the stat to normalize against. We used to normalize against Spell Power but now do so against Intellect. Intellect performs far better point for point than Spell Power so this will obviously drive down the relative benefits of other stats.
Second, Hit is a bonus (like Crit, Haste and Mastery) that becomes better the higher the other stats are. i.e. 1% Hit is worth more when you have 40% haste and 40% crit like the BiS gear at level 80 has. That's just simple math. With the gear reset all of our % stats have been reduced and this leads to Hit being worth less.
Third, related to the second point, the combat rating values to get 1% of Hit (or Haste, Mastery, Crit etc) have roughly quadrupled at level 85 compared to level 80 while the the amount of spell power we have has only maybe doubled. As such this throws the relative values again more towards spell power and Intellect and away from the other stats.
Fourthly, compared to 3.3.5 we've seen quite a few changes that have a direct impact on +Hit. Our DoTs now maintain roughly the same duration irrespective of Haste. This means that we are casting them less often and so the chances for it +Hit to matter have been reduced (as if we *do* miss we can just cast it again). Furthermore, Mind Flay is now a channeled DoT. The practical implication of this compared to 3.3.5 is that it now only has 1 chance to miss per cast and that is on the initial cast. This compares with 3.3.5 where it had a chance to miss both on cast but also on each tick. And so our main spell has had its number of chances to miss quartered.

All up, we need Hit far less than we used to. And technically it is currently worth less than the other stats. For myself I still intend to cap Hit because one thing SimulationCraft wasn't modeling (in this instance anyway) was the reaction time needed to notice that you have missed a spell and thus recast it. It is simply easier while playing knowing that your spells will not miss. I could see however more hardcore players stacking other stats at the expense of Hit if they're on the ball about it.

Bowchikabow · 11/26/10, 4:38 AM

All up, we need Hit far less than we used to. And technically it is currently worth less than the other stats. For myself I still intend to cap Hit because one thing SimulationCraft wasn't modeling (in this instance anyway) was the reaction time needed to notice that you have missed a spell and thus recast it. It is simply easier while playing knowing that your spells will not miss. I could see however more hardcore players stacking other stats at the expense of Hit if they're on the ball about it.

That was what I was thinking as well. Going back to my older post. If you are not hit capped, then you have introduced the chance that a GCD will produce nothing. With all the % stats plummeting, that means going back up to about 1.4/1.45GCD. That seems like a long time to not be DPSing in current content (t10), but may not seem like much time in cata. However, the beta has shown us that not only are Spriests (and in deed our other DoT casting brethren) still susceptible to dps loss from empty GCD's, but also with mana STILL being an issue for us (from last I read).... we really should put hit well ahead of last place in stats.

On a side note, is there a way to specifically calculate mana efficiency at and below hit cap for cata? As an estimation perhaps?

Delacieux · 11/26/10, 5:00 AM

Testings show that the empowered shadow buff does not update the damage of rolling dots. I would post a picture of my combat log, but I didn't find a setting to show up the gained buff so it would be inaccurate anyway.

Does this mean that reapplying dots after gaining the buff is a dps win? Maybe someone can do some math on that who´s better in calculations than me.

Nimiks · 11/26/10, 5:30 AM

If you mean that reapplying SW:P is necessary to gain the empowered shadow's bonus, it will always be a dps gain (if you reforged mastery that's 1 gcd for ~20% dmg on SW:P for the rest of the fight, wich is easily higher than any filler you should have used). However it souds strange as for exemple the BQL DIM applys automatically via the mind flay refresh. I'm going to test it and edit.

Edit : well i don't know how did you test it, but the dot perfectly updates for me, 1480 to 1730~ when refreshed through mind flay after proccing empowered shadows, without any trinkets or proc gear, and back to 1480 if i refresh it with mind flay after the buff fades.

Delacieux · 11/26/10, 7:03 AM

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough with my post. Sure SW:P updates if refreshed through mindflay, but VP and DP aren't refreshed thus won't get the damage boost without reapplying.
My question was if its worth to reapply DP/VP after gaining emp. shadows or not.