Shadowpriest FAQ for 4.0 - Page 16

alinna · 12/23/10, 3:09 PM

Originally Posted by Sunius

Has anyone tried to theory craft how good tier 10 4 piece set effect is at 85? I just ran simulation craft twice, First time, with tier 10. It reported 15531 dps. Second time I ran it without tier 10, but with 4 346 item level blue items with those slots. It said 14721 dps. I would gladly upload the logs, I just don't know how to do it (simulation craft has them saved as html pages). Any thoughts?

Which 346 blue items did you use and what other items are in the other slots? I found the 277 4pc tier 10 to be better than ~ilvl 318-333 gear, but not for 346 gear. The 2pc bonus is equivalent to almost ~900 crit rating on your DoTs (which account for about 50% of damage done in the sim) and the 4pc about 2500 haste rating on Mind Flay (about 30% damage done in the sim). However, you lose a lot of intellect by using the tier 10, and intellect is simming at least two times better than any other stat. Also, you can't put Cataclysm enchants or gems into the tier 10 either, and at 346 level you're looking at similar number of sockets to the tier 10 set, but using Cataclysm blue quality gems will give you twice as many stats as the epic Wrath gems.

Sunius · 12/23/10, 5:17 PM

Originally Posted by alinna

Which 346 blue items did you use and what other items are in the other slots? I found the 277 4pc tier 10 to be better than ~ilvl 318-333 gear, but not for 346 gear. The 2pc bonus is equivalent to almost ~900 crit rating on your DoTs (which account for about 50% of damage done in the sim) and the 4pc about 2500 haste rating on Mind Flay (about 30% damage done in the sim). However, you lose a lot of intellect by using the tier 10, and intellect is simming at least two times better than any other stat. Also, you can't put Cataclysm enchants or gems into the tier 10 either, and at 346 level you're looking at similar number of sockets to the tier 10 set, but using Cataclysm blue quality gems will give you twice as many stats as the epic Wrath gems.

To be exact, these items: [Corsair's Overshirt], [Helm of Temperance], [Gloves of Purification], [Summer Song Shoulderwraps].

I am a scribe, so I can put my cata shoulder enchant on both shoulders, so I didn't take that into account. Meta is bracing earthsiege/shadowspirit diamond, tier 10 uses wotlk version, cataclysm items - cata version. I've also converted spirit to hit, for convenience. Also, in both cases I am not hit capped.

Total stats of cata items:

[Corsair's Overshirt]: 342 Intellect (262 + 40*2 gems), 40 Hit (chest enchant 40 spirit), 162 Crit, 222 Mastery;
[Helm of Temperance]: 372 Intellect (208+ 54 meta + 50 sockets bonus and orange gem + 60 helm enchant) 138 Hit, 20 Haste (orange gem), 193 Crit (158 + 35 enchant);
[Gloves of Purification]: 235 (205+10 socket bonus + 20 orange gem), 150 Hit (spirit), 70 Haste (20 orange gem + 50 enchant), 130 Mastery;
[Summer Song Shoulderwraps]: 235 Intellect (205+10 socket bonus + 20 purple gem), 170 Hit (150 spirit + 20 purple gem), 130 Crit.
Total: 1184 Intellect, 498 Hit, 485 Crit, 90 Haste, 352 Mastery.

Total stats of t10: (note: I use 264 shoulders/gloves and 277 helm/chest);

[Sanctified Crimson Acolyte Raiments]: 214 Intellect (167 + 10 enchant + 37 (1 red gem, 1 orange gem and socket bonus), 114 Crit, 124 Haste (114 + 10 orange gem);
[Sanctified Crimson Acolyte Cowl]: 228 Intellect (158 + 30 enchant + 21 meta gem + 10 purple gem + 9 socket bonus), 10 hit (purple gem), 142 Crit (122 + 20 enchant), 98 haste;
[Sanctified Crimson Acolyte Handwraps]: 166 Intellect (113 + 28 enchant + 10 purple gem + 5 socket bonus), 82 hit (72 + 10 purple gem), 80 crit.
[Sanctified Crimson Acolyte Mantle]: 128 Intellect (113 + 10 orange gem + 5 socket bonus), 82 Haste (72 + 10 orange gem), 80 Crit.
2pc bonus: 900 Crit;
4pc bonus: 2500 haste;
Total: 736 Intellect, 92 Hit, 1316 Crit, 2804 Haste.

My stat weights according to simcraft are:
Int 1.000
Hit 0.3867
Crit 0.3072
Haste 0.3527
Mastery 0.2832

Cata items are worth about 1657 intellect, and t10 with two 264 and two 277 pieces - 2164.82. Guess who's clear winner :0. Non normalized intellect is 2.9928, so dps difference between those 2 sets should be 1519.8 ((2164.82 - 1657)*2.9928), though simulating with cata items gives around 800 dps difference. I have no idea where that comes from...

dcemuser · 12/23/10, 11:09 PM

@Sunius: That is the fallacy of using Stat Weights for large scale comparisons. The weights are not meant to be used like that. The value of Int, Haste, Crit, and all the other stats you are comparing changes drastically over the course of the comparison so you are making. Even a slight change in the value of haste would radically change the DPS numbers when you're dealing with over 2000 of a single stat. You'd have to use a much more complex way of evaluating gear to come up with an accurate conclusion.

The inaccuracy of stat weighs over a large comparison is the reason for the existence of Rawr, Simcraft, and spreadsheets in general.

If Simcraft is stating an 800 DPS difference, I'd gamble your conclusion is probably right, but that Simcraft's numbers are closer to the truth. So while your conclusion may be correct, your method of reaching it is not.

Brekk · 12/25/10, 3:01 PM

nevermind

intrepidos · 12/25/10, 4:45 PM

I read every post in this topic and feel like I've learned a minimal amount.

Is there no clear consensus on what our opening rotation should be now? Some theorycrafters are saying to Mind Flay until you get an orb, and then Mind Blasting once you do, and then VT > SW:P.

Wouldn't it make more sense though to SW:P before the Mind Flay spam because of the 10% increased damage via Mind Flay glyph?

Well I have a few questions:

When is the optimal time to use Archangel if we can afford to use it twice per fight? For the first one, I was thinking to fully dot up target, obtain 5 stacks of Evangelism, in the process, and then using Archangel. Proceed to Mind Flay Mind Blast and Shadow Word: Death. But what happens once our Vampiric Touch and Devouring Plague fall off during our 18 seconds of Archangel. Should we just continue to Mind Flay / SW

/ Mind Blast until the buff wears off? (And then reapplying VT and DP).

OR

Reapply VT and DP during Archangel buff if they happen to fall off.

bowlpack · 12/25/10, 6:05 PM

I usually make sure that I have refreshed dots with both a full stack of evangelism and empowered shadow before using my first DA. This usually gives me plenty of time to not have to worry about refreshing dots without evangelism re-stacked during DA.

SWP>VT>DP>MF(until evangelism 5x)>MF(until shadow orb)>MB>Reapply Dots>DA

Tarhuil · 12/27/10, 5:56 AM

When is the optimal time to use Archangel if we can afford to use it twice per fight?

I typically use it once toward the beginning of the fight when I could stand to gain a bit of mana and do a little bonus damage then again after 25%. Last is the easy choice -- usually you'll have bloodlust/heroism/etc, you can do double SWD, and you get the Mind Melt bonus.

As for the initial Dark Archangel, I'd probably continue to Mind Flay/Mind Blast but recast my dots as I normally would. The 20% damage is nice, but after looking at my logs, I do more damage with VT+DP than I do MF. It would be roughly equal if I had the DA bonus for the entire fight, but as that's not the case, I'd rather have my dots already rolling when DA falls off than squeeze out another slightly buffed MF or two without my dots ticking.

Peste · 12/28/10, 4:32 PM

Shadow Priest is not my main. So I apologize if there's something I'm not seeing or perhaps discussions I've missed that would answer any of the following. If that is the case - feel free to simply state as such and move on.

Leveling my shadow priest I had a bit of an epiphany.

Would it be beneficial to not have 1 rotation/priority but 2? I mean this - Evangelism buffs our DoTs, but Archangel buffs our nukes (including Mind Spike which wipes our DoTs). What if we rotated DoT and Nuke dps phases every 90 sec on Archangel CD. Upon Archangel CD you swap to Spike spam with Blast/Death filler until. Once Archangel is about to end you stack up Evangelism and Orbs and proceed with DoT priority DPS until next Archangel.

With a 90 sec CD, most raid fights should see ~3 Archangels.

Grubo · 12/30/10, 10:58 AM

Wouldn't it make more sense though to SW:P before the Mind Flay spam because of the 10% increased damage via Mind Flay glyph?

That's what I am doing. Not only because of the increased damage, but also because there is a chance to get an orb on every swp-tick. You can also move a bit at the beginning of a fight.

SW:P -> MF until orb procs -> MB -> VT -> DP -> AA -> MF MF ...

LucidityAxel · 12/30/10, 11:25 AM

One of your basic premises seems to be that the Archangel Buff is not a strong benefit for the DoT rotation. This is highly suspect, since Archangel also buffs Mind Flay, Mind Blast, and Shadow Word: Death, all of which are used in a DoT rotation. It is not a Mind Spike-only buff.

You could try modeling your rotation in Simulationcraft or trying it out in raids and posting the results here, but I suspect you will see dips in your overall dps each time you switch rotations and poor mana efficiency since you aren't proccing Replenishment half the time.

Kaecyra · 12/30/10, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Grubo

That's what I am doing. Not only because of the increased damage, but also because there is a chance to get an orb on every swp-tick. You can also move a bit at the beginning of a fight.

SW:P -> MF until orb procs -> MB -> VT -> DP -> AA -> MF MF ...

Do you need to re-apply SW:P here to get the bonus from Emp Shadow or does MF's refresh automatically factor that in?
I had been under the impression that you needed to re-apply, but it would be a nifty bonus to discover that you don't.

After dots are up again, I've been following a sort of: Dots > MB > MF kind of rotation.

Nimiks · 12/30/10, 12:02 PM

Rolling dot refreshed by another spell (SW:P, corruption, etc) automatically update with the spell/haste/crit/DIM you have at the moment it is refreshed, no need for re applying.

Liruyn · 12/31/10, 8:46 AM

I do not see that on a boss encounter the SW:P -> Mindflay till one shadow orb is viable unless you want an early dps loss.

I've been testing on dummies and the Sim and I've been noticing this rotation is more dps earlier, and by your second reapply of dots you're already with one shadow orb, and then from then on it's gravy. I've also raided with a spriest that did this in 25man, and his dps was significantly lower within the first 30 seconds than mine was, however it's hard to tell considering we're not wearing the exact same gear.

VT -> SW:P -> DP -> Mindflay till 1 Orb / x5 DE -> reapply VT + DP -> Pop wings, restack dark evangelism and continue normal rotation.

Any thoughts?

Elerion · 12/31/10, 8:56 AM

It's not worth discussing the two approaches without including extensive test data, simulations or math. Going off gut feelings or circumstantial evidence won't help.

This is especially true since the "SWP+Flay until orb" opening is heavily dependent on RNG, and gets gradually worse the longer you have to wait for that first orb. And for mid-fight openings or trash chaining, the issue is further complicated by whether you have any orbs up at the start of the fight.

Until someone brings evidence pointing to one approach being better, don't worry too much about it. The difference is minor over a 5 minute boss fight. Focus on your mid-fight performance instead, it will make much more of a difference.

BravePT · 12/31/10, 9:07 AM

Hello everyone,

Actually it seems logic and a valid starting rotation -> SWP - MF - (orb proc) - MB - dots, etc, i usually dont do that, because one of the best non epic trinkets, its the last one from Grim Batol 5man Heroic (Gale of Shadows), who does 20 stacks of spellpower increasing total SP by 340. Since it procs also with dots, i usually start with the normal rotation: VT - SWP - DP - MF , when i get orb Proc, i usually have almost the 20 stacks of the trinket. When i get the 20 stacks i start then MB and reapply dots..etc.

One question, in all the rotation, what gives more dps? right after having 3 proc orbs, doing mindblast even if the dots are at middle duration, or wait for the dots almost end do to mindblast and then refresh the dots?

Dont know if im doing the right thing