For our rotation, should we be using MB every CD or when we have Orbs x3??

Also, I have the 4x T10 for lower mindflay durations, which before 4.0 meant i didn't use MB at all.. is this still the case??

Should people without 4T10 use MB on CD, and people with 4T10 use it only on x1, x2 or x3 Orbs??
Should people without 4T10 use MB only on x3 Orbs, and people with 4T10 not use it at all??

Someone help please

"When should we use MB without 4T10?"
"When should we use MB with 4T10?"
Are the basic questions to be answered, this will probably also depend on the SP of the player if MF and MB have different coefficient but i'll let you pro's do the math.

A good find. 10 stats will still be the dps enchant of choice, but 20 spirit provides a good option for a hit enchant in addition to a little more regen.

So if you stack haste CDs, recast your DoTs, and then never let them fall off, they will keep their haste buffs for the entire fight?

I just ran a few simple tests on a training dummy. Both runs were done to a full mana bar, speed pot was popped at the beginning just before DP, then VT was applied, then SWP, then flay spam until dot refresh.

Test 1 (DoTs allowed to fall and refreshed just as they fell, pre 4.0 style) 164.43 seconds
VT 80 ticks
SWP 89 ticks
DP 82 ticks

Test 2 (DoTs never allowed to fall, 100% uptime) 157.81 seconds
VT 77 ticks
SWP 86 ticks
DP 79 ticks

Secondary test with a more controlled environment. Pot just before DP was applied, refreshed DP exactly twice. Test 1 DP was refreshed with 1 second left, test 2 DP was refreshed the instant it fell off.

Test 1
DP 37 ticks
Test 2
DP 37 ticks

So for pots at least haste does not seem to refresh if you refresh the DoT before it falls.

i'm new to this msg board, so i hope this isnt out of line.

my testing shows that haste is the only exception currently to swp getting updated with mind flay. and that mind flay does not update VT or DP in any way. however debuffs on the mob are recalculated per tick, without any interference from us. crit and damage modifiers are both now updated with mind flay (they were not before).

this means that currently, swp hasted with heroism, pots, whatever, can be rolled the whole fight. but honestly, if haste is the only exception, i would expect it changed at some point. swp also clearly benefits from haste now, but i think we knew that already.

i will preface by saying that while these are small samples, i did run them multiple times with the same result. the only variation being sometimes getting 1 crit while naked, which is expected. i invite anyone else to run the same or similar tests. if these are somehow flawed and i am not understanding something correctly, i apologize.

here are the tests i ran on the target dummies.

Naked time between ticks (expected results)
VT: 3 seconds (5 ticks) (0 crit)
DP: 3 seconds (8 ticks) (0 crit)
SWP: 3 seconds (6 ticks) (0 crit)

Cast Naked, dress to full gear, refresh with mind flay. (same results no effect from added haste)
VT: 3 seconds (5 ticks) (0 crit)
DP: 3 seconds (8 ticks) (0 crit)
SWP: 3 seconds (cant count ticks, reset with mind flay) (4/6 crit showing that crit was indeed updated)

my testing also showed that if i cast vt and dp at the end of heroism (again naked) i would continue to get 2 second ticks until hard refreshed. and that dots cast before heroism also did not benefit from heroism until recast.

to prove the point, i let dots fall off and cast right as heroism is ending (still naked)
VT:7 ticks (+2)
DP:11 ticks (+3)
SWP:8 ticks (+2)

meaning, that mind flay does not update VT or DP with changes in character stats. but does update SWP with crit (new), damage modifiers(new) and spell power (like always), but not haste.

next tests

dot the dummy, then cast curse of elements (while naked)(warlock helped). i did this naked because the damage ticks on all the dots are always within 1 point of damage to each other, excluding the rare crit.

no coe debuff (no shadow form) (control test). damage done per dot:
VT: 224
DP: 231
SWP: 360

after coe was cast (still naked and no shadow form) (no mind flay)
VT: 242
DP: 250
SWP: 389
this shows that dots are in fact updated per tick as the mob is debuffed. no need to recast anything for debuffs.

joining an arcane mage in a group (3% damage) and refreshing with mind flay (before mind flay no change).
VT: 224
DP: 231
SWP: 371 (only change)
this shows that getting a damage modifier power up will only update swp, and only on mind flay refresh.

Good thing CoE was calcuated on tick Pre 4.0. already... Test it with improved Scorch next, that at least wasn't calcuated on tick. Nothing has changed for CoE.

Also to clarify it: NO DoT should be calculated on tick.

What cataclysm changed are that auto refresh mechanics should recalculate all buffs/debuffs that previously could be rolled throughout the whole fight. DoTs without auto refresh are still calculated on cast.

VT/DP are calculated on cast. (CoE being the exclusion, which it always was)

I think you made some minor errors in these tables for the breakoff points. For example in your table for SW:P, the breakoff for 8 ticks is 33.3%, but my total haste along with 2/3 Darkness when I tested (Albeit in my holy spec, so no 5% haste buff from Shadowform) was 1.2891*1.02 = 1.314882 and I still had 8 ticks. Additionally I had 11 Devouring Plague ticks at this amount of haste, but your table specifies 37.5% haste as the breakoff point.

I had to take my haste down to 1.2165*1.02 = 1.24083 for Shadow Word: Pain to go from 8 ticks to 7. That doesn't indicate an exact breakoff point, but it does indicate a silly math mistake. For some more precise proof, I had 11 ticks of Devouring Plague at 31.49% haste, and when I dropped down to 31.18% total haste I only had 10 ticks.

These are the results that I have for breakoff points. Let me know what you think, or if I've missed something.



Devouring Plague - 8 ticks base

Ticks	Haste
9	6.25%
10	18.75%
11	31.25%

Mind Flay - 3 ticks base

Ticks	Haste
4	16.6666...%
5	50%
6	83.3333...%

Shadow Word: Pain - 6 ticks base

Ticks	Haste
7	8.3333...%
8	25%
9	41.6666...%

Vampiric Touch - 5 ticks base

Ticks	Haste
6	10%
7	30%
8	50%

As of 4.0.1 always MB on 3x orb w/ t10 4set, always on cd without.

Thank you nysem.

The implications of that, And I just spent 52 g on unspeccing to test it, is that blizzard rounds to the nearest tick.

The numbers malapropia gives are correct if you gain an extra tick when you should mathematically, without speccing into haste increasing talents.

The numbers I gave are correct if you gain an extra tick when you should mathematically, when you are specced into haste increasing talents.

If you will notice, the first number you gave is half the number malapropia gave, but they increase at the same rate. This is because the point that you gain the extra tick at is not the point we assumed.

I'm going to have to update my posted numbers to account for this information.

I just did some quick tests on target dummies. Haste numbers were achieved with a combination of haste pots, black magic and hyperspeed accelerators. You can see my spec and gear here
The World of Warcraft Armory - Elegen @ Mannoroth - Profile

1140 Haste
9 SWP
7 VT
12 DP

1390 Haste (my normal base before procs)
9 SWP ticks
8 VT
12 DP

1630 Haste
10 SWP
8 VT
13 DP

1880 Haste
10 SWP
9 VT
14 DP

2130 Haste
11 SWP
9 VT
14 DP

2380
11 SWP
9 VT
15 DP

I think I may be misunderstanding your post, but I did test the points at which each SW:P and Devouring Plague get their first additional ticks just to confirm. This is with no shadowform buff, and 0/3 Darkness. Even when not specced into haste increasing talents they appear to match the numbers I've given:

Devouring Plague:
6.16% - 8 ticks
6.47% - 9 ticks

Shadow Word: Pain:
8.23% - 6 ticks
8.54% - 7 ticks

As my previous post would indicate the breakoff points after that seem to be accurate also, even when specced into 2/3 Darkness. From there you can recreate the tables for haste percentages/ratings. For the ratings column I'm going to assume that 3/3 Darkness and Mind Quickening are present, but like Malapropia's numbers and yours, those are approximate:

Devouring Plague - 8 ticks base

Ticks	Haste%	Rating
9	6.25%	0 (Those talents alone put you above this)
10	18.75%	323
11	31.25%	701
12	43.75%	1080
13	56.25%	1459

**EDIT - Mind Flay does not appear to gain additional ticks with haste on live**

Mind Flay - 3 ticks base

Ticks	Haste	Rating
4	16.6666...%	259
5	50%	1269
6	83.3333...%	2280

Shadow Word: Pain - 6 ticks base

Ticks	Haste	Rating
7	8.3333...%	6
8	25%	511
9	41.6666...%	1017
10	58.3333...%	1522

Vampiric Touch - 5 ticks base

Ticks	Haste	Rating
6	10%	57
7	30%	663
8	50%	1269
9	70%	1876