Elitist Jerks Shadowpriest FAQ for 4.0

 10/19/10, 12:49 AM #76 Tust Glass Joe   Tust Night Elf Priest   Moonrunner sorry ignore my last post. i completely forgot i had hyperspeed glove enchant macroed to VT. so i reforged. at 1275 i am getting 8 ticks. which is only 5 over the 1269 mark. also, with hyperspeed i have 1515 haste and still only got 9 swp ticks. so that 1522 for 10 is probably correct.
10/19/10, 8:24 AM   #77
zaxbysauce
Glass Joe

Troll Priest

Korgath
 Originally Posted by nadoo I personally have been playing around with rotation (moving on every instant) - SW: P, DP, VT, etc then SW: D only when i refresh DP. not sure this is actually a dps increase. is the improved DP hit greater than SW: D at more than 25%hp? really i hope this math isnt too horrible can someone more skilled do it?
DP hits a lot harder than SWD above 25%, almost twice as hard in fact.

10/19/10, 2:11 PM   #78
enqi
Glass Joe

Worgen Warlock

Frostmane (EU)
 Originally Posted by Skolyr The 3 minute CD is 180 seconds. My shadowfiend does ~24k Damage over 15 Seconds. However the chance of no shadow orbs procing @ end game gear's haste levels is very low.
What are you smoking, my Shadowfiend does 10% of my dps with decent RNG.

To avoid more discussions until PROPER math is done.
DP > VT > SWP > 3x MB > Fiend > MF > MB > SWD

Follow it and conquer, you double your SWD below 25% aka spam two of them and continue your normal rotation.

Read previous post regarding t10 and MB.

Last edited by enqi : 10/19/10 at 2:17 PM.

10/19/10, 6:52 PM   #79
Skolyr
Glass Joe

Deathwing
 the probability that a 1 orb will proc during a MF should be: p= 1(3*1)*(0.18*1)*(1-0.18) ^(3-1) = ~36% the probability 2 orbs will proc is ~8% and 3 orbs is 0.5%
SW:P Also has an 18% chance to proc an orb. Mine ticks every 2 seconds. So in the 6.5 seconds between MBs CD, @ a 1.7 MF time you could cast 3 times (with 1.4s to refresh VT, DP, or cast SW:D). That's 9 ticks of MF, also SW:P would tick 3 times. That's 12 18% chances on gaining a Shadow Orb, I am terrible with probability but that looks like at least one orb should be generated.

Also, the reason MB was removed from rotations pre-4.0 was that because the damage it did was low compared to MF. All Blizzard had to do was buff MB damage and MB on CD came back out on top. Shadow Orbs are that buff giving MB 34% more damage to MB each one you have.

 What are you smoking, my Shadowfiend does 10% of my dps with decent RNG.
That was how much damage ONE shadowfiend did. ~24k over the course of 15 seconds. That is simply a number to decide how much damage should be added to a MF crit. Which is 1/18th of it because each crit reduces the CD by 1/18th of it's CD. Maybe before you accuse me of doing drugs and insult my math you should read the post?

10/20/10, 1:02 AM   #80
Glass Joe

Gnome Warrior

Eonar (EU)
 SW:P Also has an 18% chance to proc an orb. Mine ticks every 2 seconds. So in the 6.5 seconds between MBs CD, @ a 1.7 MF time you could cast 3 times (with 1.4s to refresh VT, DP, or cast SW). That's 9 ticks of MF, also SW:P would tick 3 times. That's 12 18% chances on gaining a Shadow Orb, I am terrible with probability but that looks like at least one orb should be generated.
certainly you would expect atleast 1. the point i was trying to make is MB should not be kept on cd, it is still only better than MF if orbs have proced. how many orbs actually make MB better is a little more complicated than the maths that have been done on it so far. I would guess 2 or 3 orbs would make MB better for maximum dps (although 1 orb may make MB dps better than MF in a direct comparison).

edit:
 That was how much damage ONE shadowfiend did. ~24k over the course of 15 seconds. That is simply a number to decide how much damage should be added to a MF crit. Which is 1/18th of it because each crit reduces the CD by 1/18th of it's CD. Maybe before you accuse me of doing drugs and insult my math you should read the post?
also im pretty sure its not actually 1/18th of the shadowfiend damage. whats important is how much more shadowfiend uptime you gain from mind flay crits.
shadowfiend CD is 3mins = 180sec
uptime is 15sec
so 15/180*100 = 8.3% uptime
with 1 mind flay crit its
15/170*100 = 8.8% uptime
24k damage over 15 secs is 1600dps
so without mindflay crit overall shadowfiend dps should be 132.8. with 1 MF crit its should be 140.8.
so i think a mind flay crit increases overall shadowfiend dps by about 8dps in this case or 6%.

Last edited by nadoo : 10/20/10 at 1:42 AM.

10/20/10, 1:50 AM   #81
Starfire
Honorary Toastr

Night Elf Priest

Dragonblight
There is only a 91% chance for at least one orb being up with 12 attacks and 18% chance each.

I personally am not familiar with the numbers, but if MB is only superior to MF with at least one orb, it's very possible you do not want to cast MB on cd.

That said, MF and 1 tick of SWP only have a 45% chance of at least 1 shadow orb, and the chance of a "wasted" orb is very very minute. There is only a .5% chance of getting 3 orbs in 3 attacks, and a .1% chance of getting 4 orbs in 4 attacks.

Random thought, I think it might be time to re-evaluate improved Mind Blast, again.

 Originally Posted by arison Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when \$AWESOME_TRINKET drops.

10/20/10, 1:57 AM   #82
ildon
Collateral Damage

Whisperwind
 Originally Posted by Alonewarrior Does the gcd kick in with the reset? I don't know if I've seen it, or if the quick succession hits can be done in under that time.
The first day or two after the patch I could have sworn that SW:D was ignoring the GCD with the glyph, but after actually testing it in a controlled situation instead of just in a raid, I realized that it's really just a graphical issue, possibly combined with the new spell queue. Try taking off all your gear and finding someone to drop their HP below 25% and try to SW:D them twice. When your GCD is closer to 1.5 instead of 1.0, it becomes painfully obvious that glyphed SW:D does obey the GCD.

The graphical issue is that the client starts drawing the 10 second cooldown the first time you SW:D, then realizes you have the glyph and tries to draw the GCD, then realizes it's already time to cast the spell again and does the short "casting this spell" icon highlight animation. Due to this flickering behavior it never really draws the GCD and tricks your eye into thinking one did not occur.

10/20/10, 2:36 AM   #83
Glass Joe

Gnome Warrior

Eonar (EU)
 That said, MF and 1 tick of SWP only have a 45% chance of at least 1 shadow orb, and the chance of a "wasted" orb is very very minute. There is only a .5% chance of getting 3 orbs in 3 attacks, and a .1% chance of getting 4 orbs in 4 attacks.
its a 45% chance for MF alone to proc atleast 1 orb.
its aprox at 55% chance for MF and a tick of SW: P to proc atleast 1 orb.
also i did some math/reasoning on page 3 of this thread on MF vs MB. MF is most definitely better than MB with 0 orbs.

10/20/10, 7:05 AM   #84
enqi
Glass Joe

Worgen Warlock

Frostmane (EU)
 Originally Posted by Skolyr That was how much damage ONE shadowfiend did. ~24k over the course of 15 seconds. That is simply a number to decide how much damage should be added to a MF crit. Which is 1/18th of it because each crit reduces the CD by 1/18th of it's CD.
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Go down to "Wezzie", check my pet damage (Note, I had horrible rng). With average 270 iLVL your crit should be high enough to give you an approx 20-30% uptime on your shadowfiend depending on RNG. One of my shadowfiends did (164k/2) 82014 damage over 15 seconds (This is ALOT more if you manage to get hero on your shadowfiend(s)) and effective dps of both my shadowfiends over the course of the entire fight was 1197.3. This values your shadowfiend above anything else but DP in your rotation which also values a mind flay above anything but a 3x MB due to the fact that shadowfiend is now one of your your top dps spell.

Find the amount of crit you need to make MF better than MB on cd instead because MF will always be better than MB with the current gear everyone has access to.

Last edited by enqi : 10/20/10 at 7:11 AM.

 10/20/10, 4:18 PM #85 moowalk Don Flamenco   Moowalk Troll Priest   Khaz'goroth I'm not sure why people are assuming SW:P only ticks once every 2.25 seconds when calculating orb proc chance. On Marrowgar last night with haste buff rolling I was getting ticks every 1.07 seconds. i.e. more than twice as fast as assumed.
 10/20/10, 7:48 PM #86 Chasim Glass Joe   Zake Dwarf Hunter   Eonar VT and DP Refresh Before 4.0.1 it was my understanding that it was best to refresch VT with about 1.5 seconds left and to refresh DP right after it dropped. I understand that DoT-clipping is gone with 4.0.1 but, to maximize uptime/DPS, should I follow the same rules? Thanks.
 10/20/10, 10:35 PM #87 world Von Kaiser   World Human Warrior   Blackrock Ideally you want to refresh both between the last and second-last ticks. This way, the dots will have 100% uptime, and you won't be wasting any casting time (the final tick which didn't go through will be added to the new dot).
 10/21/10, 6:23 PM #88 Nildrohain Glass Joe   Kapara Gnome Mage   Darkmoon Faire (EU) Shadowfiend usage Since shadowfiend gains the heroism/bloostlust buff and inherits spellpower, note that it may still be worth delaying the first shadowfiend cast until just before heroism/bloodlust is cast if it is used early, or for a large spellpower proc such as the one from DFO. After the first use, its cooldown is likely out of sync with procs and should often be used on cooldown. However only delay it if it does not result in a reduced total number of total swings or summons throughout the fight.
10/21/10, 6:24 PM   #89
mrtwigz
Glass Joe

Fuddio
Troll Priest

Thaurissan
 Originally Posted by Raiek I'm fairly certain it's bugged. Dropping in and out of Shadowform last night didn't show any change to my spell haste in the character panel. Hopefully this is just a display bug, and we are in fact still getting the haste. I haven't tested to see if my ability cast times cast faster in or out of Shadowform yet. I'd like to reiterate what was asked up above by Mmpriest. Would it be worth it to save MB for 3 shadow orbs, or should we just ignore that mechanic entirely and cast on CD, regardless of orb stacks?

i only quickly skimmed through the thread but didn't find a response to this. the 5% haste we get from shadowform doesn't show up on our character sheet (not entirely sure on the 3% talent), but it does show on your spell tooltip. if you go out of shadowform and mouse mindblast, you'll see your casting time (eg 1.2secs). go into shadowform and you'll find the cast time has been reduced.

also, what are your views on our mastery? as i see it, it will only affect 2 spells, mindblast and mindspike. MB being used once every 6.5 secs, and mindspike being used on trash mobs or low hp adds in boss fights. i'm just wondering how mastery will scale in Cata compared to us stacking up haste and crit which will benefit all our dots and spells compared to a higher mastery on a spell we'd only use once ever 6.5 secs. also with stacking crit rather than mastery, we'll gain orbs faster, giving us a better chance of having all 3 orbs up by the time mindblast is off cooldown.

i suppose it's a little bit of a much of a muchness until we actually get to lvl 85 and figure out the scaling on mastery and crit

10/22/10, 12:42 AM   #90
Dominoris
Glass Joe

Icecrown
 Originally Posted by Vaelir Should people without 4T10 use MB on CD, and people with 4T10 use it only on x1, x2 or x3 Orbs?? Should people without 4T10 use MB only on x3 Orbs, and people with 4T10 not use it at all??
Here are my thoughts on the orbs.

1 - Orb generation is random. We can not chose when we get anothre one like a rogue's combo points or a paladin's holy power. They come or not with the RNG
2 - The added damage per orb is static. Each orb adds the same amount of damage. There is no scaling involved here.
3 - Even without the orbs, Mind Blast is a strong contender and causes more damage for its cast time than Mind Flay so should be worked in when it is up.

Since each orb adds the same amount of damage, you can separate them out. Think of them as little damage bombs you get randomly that can only be applied with a MB. But there can only be 3 orbs up at one time, max. If you have 3 up you can not generate any more orbs. Because of this, I use MB any time it is up to clear my orbs and make room for more. When you hit 3 orbs and the hot button flashes, that is a warning, not a green light meaning ready to cast. It means you could be accruing more orbs but there is no room.

Put another way, say over length of time, you generate 12 orbs total. That's 4 Mind Blast at 3 orbs each. Or 6 Mind Blast at 2 orbs each. The total damage done by the orbs does not change in either case. If a Mind Blast does 5000 damage, each orb will do 34% of that or 1700 damage each for 20.4K total damage from 12 orbs. Meanwhile, the first choice of all 3 orb Mind Blast nets 20K from the spells, but the second scenario yields 30K damage.

So .. bottom line, don't wait for 3 orbs. Cast Mind Blast when it is up and let the orbs come with the RNG. Getting in more MB casts > fewer MB at max orbs.

 Elitist Jerks Shadowpriest FAQ for 4.0