Cataclysm Discipline Priest Compendium - Page 35

Psilux · 03/07/11, 12:02 PM

I'm trying to formulate what the stat weightings will look like after 4.1 hits. I'm starting to value haste considerably more for disc, to the point where it might be the same stat weightings as holy for sheer impact on the spells I utilize.

1) PW:S Raid healing: I'd be looking at 8-10 people with shields only a second before the raid damage hit. It's a mana intensive rotation that can't be kept up for long periods and haste is not viable for this setup. This is a bit more problematic for 25 man raids as the coverage isn't there.

2) Smite / gheal spam single target healing: all spells benefit greatly from haste. Bringing a smite down to 1.5 sec cast might even be possible. Utilizing PW:S for a mana battery and additional HPS effectively pushes PW:S to the back burner for stat weighting as it is only used once every 15 secs. Only drawback on smite spam is the heals do not always go to the tank.

3) POH spam raid healing: POH benefits from haste and crit, it does not benefit greatly from mastery. This seems like the blizzard prefered method of keeping raids up as it is sustainable in disc.

Analyzing the spells:
Haste affects: GBC, holyfire, holyfire dot, smite, penance, greater heal, prayer of healing (I don't use renew)
mastery affects: pw:s and divine aegis
crit affects: holyfire, holyfire dot, smite, penance, greater heal, prayer of healing

With the change to a 15sec PW:S, mastery stacking seems alot more lackluster. I'm considering the other spells to be more useful with stat weightings that look like: Int > Spirit > Haste > mastery > crit, much akin to our holy brethren.

Ayreon · 03/07/11, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Starfire

I think it's foolish now for someone not to pickup Atonement.

Sorry but it's really not. A randomly targetted weak heal and a decent yet ultimately not quite powerful enough boost to PoH is still not worth the five talent ponts and 1 glyph (2 glyphs come 4.1? could be wrong here) when compared to PW:S and the run speed increase of 3/3 IS. Like I said in the other thread, I really can't see me smiting over PW:S and regular healing on any encounter I have done so far.

• Wizeowel · 03/08/11, 6:52 AM

Originally Posted by Hegen

This (Atonement/PoH vs. shield spamming) debate is more or less pointless unless someone puts in the effort to analyze and document a complete cast sequence. Both methods have a number of synergies and for both of them combat logs showing good results exist. Throwing pros and cons around isn't going to produce a convincing result in this case.

A sequence would need to begin around the point where a shield spammer would begin to preshield. During that time, a PoH caster would use at least one shield, presumabely on a tank (for rapture), and he would smite, maybe use a Penance somewhere, then start a precast PoH. Inner Focus also needs to be treated.

Also, gearing needs to be considered. Atonement+PoH users scale with gear in a different way than shield spammers. The most significant difference is regarding crit.

I have to agree with Hegen here and I'd like to invite people to report any further posts that attempt to discuss Atonement without showing stronger research. Common sense arguments only seem to lead to "yes it is" "no it isn't" and that is not advancing the discussion.

Koilie · 03/08/11, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Ayreon

Sorry but it's really not. A randomly targetted weak heal and a decent yet ultimately not quite powerful enough boost to PoH is still not worth the five talent ponts and 1 glyph (2 glyphs come 4.1? could be wrong here) when compared to PW:S and the run speed increase of 3/3 IS. Like I said in the other thread, I really can't see me smiting over PW:S and regular healing on any encounter I have done so far.

You have to remember that smite is not only utilizing your +healing modifiers, but also all plus damage modifiers on the target you are attacking. This includes the 5% crit and 8% magic damage and 3% raid damage bonus that any 25 man raid should have. Your atonement heal is awarded it's bonus' after that fact which increases it's potency even further. Then there are the specialty mechanics which allow for some pretty ridiculous atonement heals. Heroic Nefarian for instance. You get to "double dip" on the stolen power. First your smite damage is modified and then the heal is modified further. With 150 stacks and AA up I have crit for 380k.

Ayreon · 03/08/11, 10:58 AM

I see your point but I honestly believe this is one of the situations where pure numbers theorycrafting can be very misleading. Even if you show that A/AA does comparable HPS/HPM on a model fight, it will still remain a completely random (and melee only, remember) heal, requiring a glyph or two and five talent points to even work properly. This is the biggest problem I have with it by far. Also, I can not think of a situation where proactive healing (PW:S) would be inferior to reactive.

Jaybird · 03/08/11, 11:08 AM

Is a spec with Atonement but no Archangel not even worth considering? Something like: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Smite then would be used purely during low-damage periods to reduce the CD of Penance through ToT, with the heal just a nice side-effect.

Koilie · 03/08/11, 11:25 AM

Smite healing is hardly reactive considering you simply press the button over and over until it's time to cast something else due to a cooldown coming up or a change in incoming damage during the encounter. Not quite sure what you consider proactive regarding shields, but you seem to assume that an AA/A spec priest would not stop smiting to use shield when the time came. Shielding a full health target to prevent damage that would not otherwise kill them is also not very much use unless it is on a tank for rapture. Nor is it much fun tbh. Really the only reason to do it is to get an inflated parse when you out gear and have an encounter on farm. My thoughts on the matter at least.

Originally Posted by Jaybird

Is a spec with Atonement but no Archangel not even worth considering? Something like: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Smite then would be used purely during low-damage periods to reduce the CD of Penance through ToT, with the heal just a nice side-effect.

Without AA sure, but without Evangelism your losing significant mana efficiency on both smite and penance as well as the loss of increased damage/healing. And it you take those points might as well go all out and grab AA.

Koilie · 03/08/11, 11:28 AM

Remove - Double post

Starfire · 03/08/11, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Ayreon

Sorry but it's really not. A randomly targetted weak heal and a decent yet ultimately not quite powerful enough boost to PoH is still not worth the five talent ponts and 1 glyph (2 glyphs come 4.1? could be wrong here) when compared to PW:S and the run speed increase of 3/3 IS. Like I said in the other thread, I really can't see me smiting over PW:S and regular healing on any encounter I have done so far.

I think you are the one using (flawed) theorycrafting and not real world numbers. Not to sound rude, but my smite is definitely not a weak heal. It hits for around 15-18k, costs 2k mana and has a faster cast time than heal.

But even so, my point was I peg holy fire to be a 20k heal, with a fast cast time and cheap cost -- the dot/hot is an extra bonus.

On another topic, I am not sure why people think AA/A and PW:S spam are mutually exclusive.

Take Maloriak for example: during blue phase there is very little raid damage. You can cast 5 smites to build evangelism here while using atonement to heal melee/tank and using shield/penance on the flash freeze.

Entering red phase, it takes at most one smite to refresh evangelism. Every other gcd can then be spent on shield spamming. Either one gcd before or directly after the scorching blast pop archangel and begin PoH to top back up the raid for the second one. Added bonus of using full DA on the second scorching blast.

Keep in mind, on average three PoH on one group should put up a 20k-ish DA (4-9k DA per a PoH x3). This is roughly 2/3 the strength of a full PW:S but much cheaper.

On a separate topic, I can't test it at the minute but I suppose we should start looking at the hpm/hps of using 3 PoH exclusively for DA come the patch. It might work out cheaper, though we would sacrifice mobility.

Malsyn · 03/08/11, 3:18 PM

Disc Healing 4.06 - Written from My Prospective(Paladin/Druid/Disc Healer Comp)

Now before we get into Boss's and the use Atonement Healing(Smite Healing) I would like to state that this would be fitting to the role of raid healer. Some people I have spoken to have expressed fear over using it simply because it doesn't heal for a lot and they aren't sure when its "safe" to use. That said common sense dictates all and I will speak strictly from my experience and hopefully that helps anyone else.

Blackwing Descent

Magmaw - 3 Healer setup - opening with 5 smites to get evanglism up is good for business. Raid Damage is high and you can afford to let me people dip a bit during this phase and use shield to cover and real big health losses. The gain here is that you can proc archangel for 15% more healing and top off your group as well as increase your divine aegis shields on each party member your healing. If your not having mana regen issues building the charges back up during the head on the spike phase is more useful and provides extra raid dps.

Omnitron - You can use Atonement as almost a primary heal during this encounter aside from during heavy raid damage like Magmatron's AOE. Also considering Magmatron's aoe it would be in your best interest to save and keep up your 5 stacks to be able to proc archangel during the AOE.

Maloriak - You can use Atonement during frost phase - top off raid members as required with prayer of healing. Arcane storm if kept under 2 ticks is maybe 13k damage to each raid member and renew can handle that just make sure your stacks of Evangelism don't fall off so when Fire(red) hits you can hit Archangel/Power Infusion and heal everyone up through the fire beams.

Chimaeron - Currently possible to run this as disc but in your groups best interest holy will probably serve better.

Atramedes - If raid damage is low you can fit it in whenever you feel like it really.

Bastion of Twilight

Halfus - Amazing Main tank healing. Increased damage on Halfus I have had smite heals for 40k+. That puts it on par with greater heal for less mana and faster cast time. That said getting 5 stacks up early will be helpful depending on the drakes that are up. Raid damage falls off after you have downed the drakes so switching to smite healing if possible in the last phase will up your HPS

Valiona and Theralion - I start the encounter with 5 smites so when blackout pops 15% increased healing. During Theralion phase I focus just on healing as raid damage is high and movement is also high. As you play with this fight more you can find your comfort zones for dropping smites in between your group healing assignments.

Nefarion - Will Update soon

Twilight Ascendant Council - Will Update soon

Cho'gall - Since the group is stacked at the start smite healing is kind of handy since it targets the lowest hp target. While this healing is nice it may not be enough to top off everyone as needed. Things to consider though is that when 2 healing this encounter that extra 15% healing is going to be extremely helpful

Throne of the Four Winds

Conclave of Wind - Tank healing on Nezir's platform. Hit the tank with penance to bring up 3 stacks of Grace. Power Word Shield and renew proceed with smite heals. The goal would be to keep up Grace on the tank and shield/renew for immediate refresh.

Anshal's Platform - Same healing as above for Nezir until your group starts taking damage then proc Archangel to top them up especially helpful if the tank is having issues picking up the adds.

Rohash - filler for the entire encounter. The dps on this platform should be fine with penance/renew/shield so your smite simply helps speed up the dps on this platform.

Al'Akir - Will Update soon

ellotheth · 03/08/11, 6:50 PM

Originally Posted by Jaybird

Is a spec with Atonement but no Archangel not even worth considering? Something like: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Smite then would be used purely during low-damage periods to reduce the CD of Penance through ToT, with the heal just a nice side-effect.

Common sense suggests that casting an extremely weak heal to reduce the CD of Penance would be inferior to casting a heal, but throw your numbers in Carnathagia's spreadsheet and see what you get. When I set my Evangelism and Archangel uptime stats to 0, I get this:

Spell	Healing	HPCT	HPM
Heal	12314	5863	6.64
Smite	9840	5857	3.19

With these numbers, Atonement without Evangelism/Archangel is not worth casting.

Starfire · 03/08/11, 7:49 PM

Originally Posted by ellotheth

Common sense suggests that casting an extremely weak heal to reduce the CD of Penance would be inferior to casting a heal, but throw your numbers in Carnathagia's spreadsheet and see what you get. When I set my Evangelism and Archangel uptime stats to 0, I get this:

Spell	Healing	HPCT	HPM
Heal	12314	5863	6.64
Smite	9840	5857	3.19

With these numbers, Atonement without Evangelism/Archangel is not worth casting.

Not sure where you go off calling Atonement "weak" when it's HPCT is practically identical to Heal. -- It's most likely not worth the hit to mana, but Smite is a faster cast, and you can't discount that either.

Also, take into mind a lot of this discussion was spawned specifically because we know Holy Fire is going to be added to Atonement. Holy Fire dealing 30% more damage/healing and having a faster cast-time (~close to 50% faster than Heal) is definitely not weak, especially compared to Heal.

Come 4.1, our "emergency" burst healing of course will be PW:S first, Flash Heal second, but Holy Fire should be right behind Flash Heal, but be significantly cheaper.

Also, any fight with some sort of gimmick +damage will skew towards Holy Fire's favor, at least during those portions of the fight (Omnotron, Halfus, Nefarian, Twin Dragons).

Dideldidumm · 03/08/11, 8:58 PM

@Starfire

Spell Healing HPCT HPM
Heal 12314 5863 6.64
Smite 9840 5857 3.19

With these numbers, Atonement without Evangelism/Archangel is not worth casting.

And even if Smite would be as good as Heal PCT then it still wouldnt be worth casting considering that there are a lot of better spells at your disposal and the manacost just isnt worth it compared to heal.

Either you go for Smiteheal with all 5 Talentpoints or you shouldnt do it at all.

Barlow · 03/08/11, 9:00 PM

Originally Posted by Wizeowel

I have to agree with Hegen here and I'd like to invite people to report any further posts that attempt to discuss Atonement without showing stronger research. Common sense arguments only seem to lead to "yes it is" "no it isn't" and that is not advancing the discussion.

I don't really get your point. What kind of "research" are you looking for? We know the numbers as of 4.06. We know the numbers as of 4.1. therefore we know that a glyphed HF/Smite will be more mana efficient than GH - and depending on gear should be in roughly in the 8-9K HPS ballpark. At least those are my results, updating the spreadsheet with my gear reforged to haste.

We will most likely never be able to "simulate" a given raid situation to compare "stacking Evangalism" vs. pre-shielding as Hegen suggests because that would depend on HP of the shielded targets, duration of the damage peak, incoming dps, raidsetup, number of Disc priests (overlapping HF DoTs) etc. - but basically that isn't the point because an Atonement spec does not keep you from pre-shielding anyways.

Dideldidumm · 03/08/11, 9:32 PM

Originally Posted by Barlow

We will most likely never be able to "simulate" a given raid situation to compare "stacking Evangalism" vs. pre-shielding as Hegen suggests because that would depend on HP of the shielded targets, duration of the damage peak, incoming dps, raidsetup, number of Disc priests (overlapping HF DoTs) etc. - but basically that isn't the point because an Atonement spec does not keep you from pre-shielding anyways.

Considering that Evangelism lasts 20 sek and in 4.1 preshielding starts 15 seks before the spike we can have full AA up and running right when the damagespike occurs after we preshield the raid (in 10 man) and start PoH-Spam. If you havent specced into AA then you have to use "worse" heals because the weakend soul effect prevents you from spaming shield.