Wadis

Does anyone have any WWS data from WotLK smiting in raid?

 

CuriousPriest

Um if you didnt notice ive already included the 10% from darkness when i was comparing the smite to mind blast. That mind blast is for true shadow priest. As for imp tap, that would only work on the mind blast or SW so its doubtful if its worth it. The points would probably be better put into healing talents, since a smiter would actually be more viable as an off healer (popping out of shadowform makes it very unfavorable to off heal as shadow). The only true issue is that this build requires 4446hit rating to be hard capped (though 368 would probably be better since a spriest or boomkin would probably be in the raid, and if you decided to roll alliance there would be a draenei making the cap 342) This is countered by the fact that some very high hit items exist in the current patch, and even higher hit rating items are likely to exist come ulduar. On that note this is a build that gets progressively better with gear, since it scales better than shadow (as items have more spirit, and more int, the bonuses offered by this spec increases).

 

CuriousPriest

If you moved the points into darkness the comparison of a smiter's MB to his smite would be even greater than the difference between a spriest's and this build's smite. Since a smiter does not have the 35% (15% from shadowform, 10% from shadoweaving, and 10% from twisted faith) extra damage, worse he also loses 15% additional spell power from Misery.

End story a smiter using this build casting MB has just wasted a GCD, because (though i dont have an actual value) Smite will be far superior.

As for having to move, then you might be better off just casting DP or SW: P, and then in that case perhaps there would be an arguement to put the points into darkness.

 

Lambi

Ahh sorry I didn't understand that from your post. Yeah I have to agree if you actually went crazy enough and specced holy smiter, you'd serve atleast some good with inspiration and pain supression if you had to go healing in some phase of the fight.

So with 10% darkness on a smiter, how close is MB to Smite? For those moving fights you might want to have an SW death and MB with a bit more bang for the buck if you're actually serious about DPSing.

SNAKE!

 

• typobox

It's important to note that a Smite build is never going to compete with Shadow. Just not happening.

That being said, I think it might be better to spec like this and throw SW:P and DP into the rotation. I'm going to make things simple and ignore Surge of Light (not so fun to model) and haste effects here - feel free to speak up if you think that's a significant enough omission to invalidate these claims.

Talents affecting SW:P/DP: Twin Disciplines, Focused Power, Darkness, Improved SW:P (obviously SW:P only)
Talents affecting Smite: Focused Power, Focused Will*, Holy Specialization*, Divine Fury, Searing Light, Surge of Light*, Glyph of Smite

* rolled into assumed crit
** ignored

Assumed stats: 2500 spellpower, 20% spell crit/25% holy (these numbers basically pulled out of a hat, feel free to argue)

Damage per cast time (DPCT) for SW:P:

DPCT for DP:

DPCT for Smite, HF DoT up:

DPCT for Smite, HF DoT down:

Obviously, the DoTs are definitely worth casting over Smite. (Honestly, this result for Smite feels a bit too low. Anyone notice anything wrong?)

e: oops, screwed up the talent build link.

 

CuriousPriest

The smite numbers do seem too low, and the DoT numbers do seem too high. I am not very good with DoT calculation (hence I focused on a MB comparison to smite), but perhaps giving the dots there full ticks (6/8) and then only dividing by the GCD instead of the entire duration of the spell (18/24) is not the fairest approach?
As for the smite, a spriest will never ever have the same spellpower as this smite build period. You are neglecting the fact that the build increases total spirit by 11% then adds 25% of spirit to spellpower, this is a much great bonus to spellpower than the unmodified 10% of spirit that shadow gives. So using the same spellpower is automatically gimping the smite build. This spec's smite beats out an equally geared spriest's MB, and the differential between the two will only increase as gear improves (more spirit=more spellpower is the main factor)
I know from my experience as shadow that MF MB and VT are the top 3 damaging spells, and I also know that to hit 4k dps (my gear is a tad scrubby) that I have to be in the full rotation with all 3 DoTs and MFing almost constantly. And perhaps with the new talent DP will become a much stronger spell, but somehow saying it is better than SW:P feels wrong lol.

Now I am having the personal issue of acquiring the necessary hit gear to raid test this spec, would comparing this spec to a spriest's spec by attacking the same lvl dummy be a valid way to test it?

 

• typobox

The numbers given are very specifically not DPS but damage per cast time (DPCT). This should be the metric that you want to use when comparing spells for use in a rotation - you want to make sure that you get the most possible damage out of the time you spend casting it. Using DPCT as a metric does make the assumption that the enemy is going to live long enough for your DoTs to fully tick out, though - toward the end of the fight, the value of casting a DoT is going to diminish once you get to the point that the enemy's death is going to cut off a couple of ticks.

 

CuriousPriest

In the DPCT case, then dots always win; however, looking back at TBC please tell a destro lock that casting his Corruption was better then casting his shadowbolt because his shadow bolt had a lower DPCT, heck even an affliction locks Corruption ended up being inferior than shadowbolt, though I am sure the DPCT was higher. I have rarely if ever heard of DPCT used as a metric for determining damage. DPS is more often used.

Also, if i always casted SW:P when my GCD ended, as I am sure you know, I would never do any damage, so in fact I say your DPCT calculation is incorrect. The entire 18 secs must transpire for the DoT to do its full damage. Any shortening of this decreases its damage; therefore the denominator should still be 18 secs.

 

Lambi

What are you talking about? He says in the post that you'll have to consider DoTs running the full course when using DPCT. DPCT is the best metric used when calculating DoTs vs normal spells except at the end of the fight. If you use the highest DPCT spells when off cooldown or for DoTs when they've run out, you'll do the most DPS. It's basically just counting the DoT as a direct damage spell.

SNAKE!

 

• typobox

I'll have to think on your first point (not familiar at all with warlock theorycraft, for one thing, and the numbers for TBC stuff aren't exactly readily available anymore) - but as for the second point, obviously that DPCT is only valid if the DoT isn't already up on the target. The DPCT of an SW:P cast when the debuff is already on the target is just going to be the damage done by the ticks "past" the original debuff's expiration divided by a GCD. I'm not saying to spam SW:P. Treat all DoTs on a single target as if they function like DP does - with a cooldown equal to their duration. There's no situation where you would want to refresh a DoT before it falls off.

I honestly don't see anything in your post to refute the use of DPCT for determining rotations except for a vague allusion to something with no numbers given to back it up. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say that you'd be wrong about Corruption being higher than Shadowbolt for the gear levels that led to true Shadowbolt spam. DoTs aren't universally going to be better than direct damage spells.

DPCT is just a way of considering opportunity cost along with the damage done by a spell. When creating a priority "rotation", you want to put the spells with the highest output relative to their opportunity cost at the top of the list. That's exactly what DPCT does when you're not dealing with spells with other sources of cost (example: warlock curses, where you give up the ability to cast your other curses by choosing one).

e: I take too long to think. Mostly beaten.

 

François

Looking back at BC when you had to put 5 talent points in affliction to have instant corruption, corruption had probably lower DPCT than shadowbolt for 0/21/40 build. However Curse of Doom clearly had greater DPCT than Shadowbolt, and it was used. Of course you don't recast DoTs before they fully tick.

Back to topic, it's clear the Smite glyph is a nice DPS boost for Holy. I notice that Penance DPS is supposed to receive a boost, so I wonder if 37/28 +5 is really better than 52/19. Of course you would lose Spiritual Guidance, but you then may get Borrowed time and take full benefit of self-shielding when there is pushback.

 

CuriousPriest

I am talking about the fact that if you want to compare a DoT to a direct damage spell then you have to look, with my current gearing i see ticks of around 800 for SW:P (bad I Know) That is a tick every 3 secs. How does a DPCT compare to DPS since I have easily calculated a DPS(800 damge every 3 secs) If you are comparing to a damage spell that does its full damage in 2 secs compared to a dot that does its full damage over 18 secs how is it fair to only consider the GCD it takes to cast the DoT?
You talk about oppurtunity costs, what is the cost of casting a spell, but then why is there no mana consideration involved?
Since numbers are important lets look at yours:
The damge done by your SW:P is 5250. A single smite is 3914. I deal 3262 damage(I'll not even include HF) in 2 secs as opposed to in 18 secs. It takes me only .5 secs more to cast smite as opposed to SW:P, what am i losing by using that extra half sec to cast a spell that does half the damage in 1/9 the time? In 4 seconds I deal more damage than I would letting the entire dot tick. To me this DPCT is nonesense.

 

CuriousPriest

Back to topic, it's clear the Smite glyph is a nice DPS boost for Holy. I notice that Penance DPS is supposed to receive a boost, so I wonder if 37/28 +5 is really better than 52/19. Of course you would lose Spiritual Guidance, but you then may get Borrowed time and take full benefit of self-shielding when there is pushback.[/quote]

The issue is that to compete with an actual spriest you have to find ways to compete with 45% more shadow damage, penance would have to have an absurd coefficient to do that. The only way it works is to get 34% for your smite (most of the time) then abuse the bonus spellpower you get from spiritual guidance (using the 11% spirit increase you get from talents) to make the ~.2 higher coefficient of smite(over MB as in my first case) be even more of the deciding factor.

 

• typobox

Mana consideration isn't involved because DPS theorycraft is generally done assuming infinite mana in the absence of a really good reason not to (e.g. arcane mages).

Let's say that we have a DoT that ticks for 900 every 3 seconds (round numbers are good). That DoT is doing 300 DPS - we both agree on that. The thing you're missing is that as soon as your GCD is up on the initial cast, you start casting other spells. You've now got a constant 300 DPS running for the length of the DoT - and that's being added to the DPS of your other spells. Note that you just said that in 4 seconds of active casting you did more damage than the whole DoT. By casting the DoT, you spend 1.5 seconds of casting time to do that damage. Do you not see how that's significantly better?

 

CuriousPriest

I do not see that a 300dps increases at the cost of not casting a smite is worth it (The 300dps is actually much less since I give up a smite to cast the SW:P, plus as haste increases the chances that I can smite twice within a single SW:P tick(because that is unaffected by haste) increases). Furthermore, and to hopefully end the "you should include SW:P in your smite rotation". SW:P cannot crit. I have to be in shadowform for that to occur. Since it cannot crit it cannot proc SoL, and the value of an instant cast mana free smite is sorta awesome (because though theorycrafting assumes infinite mana, real world application does not, so free spells are awesome always.)

 

• typobox

Using some actual numbers here... you have a Smite that hits for ~2500 @ 2500 spellpower. SW:P that ticks for ~690 - so 230 DPS. Take that 2500 damage Smite and spread it out over the 18 seconds that SW:P ticks for - convert Smite into an equivalent DoT. That's only about 140 DPS. I don't see how to make this any clearer to you that SW:P is a better spell than Smite. You seem to think that instantaneous DPS is more important than average DPS, which couldn't be farther from the case when you're dealing with bosses with tens of millions of HP.

I do see your point about the lack of crits from SW:P, but I have a feeling that SoL isn't going to make up for the rather significant difference between the two spells. Feel free to prove me wrong.

 

CuriousPriest

So the more i think about it the more I like this spec; therefore here comes a horrid attempt at a full comparison to Spriest
Lets take a hypothetical priest (gear only)
Int: 900
Crit: X
Spirit: 1000
Haste: Y
Spellpower: 2000

The in question spec would have:
Int: 1035
Crit: X+8,8% (smite is holy aww yea)
Spirit: 1110
Haste: Y+6%
Spellpower: 2278

The cookie cutter spriest would have:
Int: 900
Crit: X+4%
Spirit: 1000
Haste:Y+0
Spellpower: 2100

Now for ease of calculation I will assume Y is 11%(thus 2 MF fit perfectly into a MB CD). I will also assume that DoT's refresh automatically, the fight has been underway, shadoweaving is at full stacks, and No crits.
Since all the dots are up the rotation would be MB, MF, MF repeat
This would take a total of 6.85 secs (1.35 for MB and 2.7 for the 2 MFs and .1 secs waiting for CD), therefore I will have 2 ticks of all three dots going off.
MF=6(.407*2100+(1/3)588)*1.55 (an extra 10% becuase of glyph of SW:P)=9772
MB=3287 (see previous post)
SW:P=2(.1829*2100+(1/6)1236)*1.4=1652
DP=2(.1849*2100+(1/8)1376)*1.55=1737
VT=2(.4*2100+(1/5)850)*1.35=2727

Smite will have a cast time of 1.71 secs meaning in 6.85 seconds you can cast 4(and all 4 will be within a single HF DoT)
Smite=4(3321) (see previous post)=13284

I have 19175 total damage done over 6.85 secs for the spriest
I have 13285 Damage done for the Smiter.


Edit: forgot to include Twin Disciplines, messed up on MF >.<

 

CuriousPriest

Rofl, if you look earlier I state that with 2278 sp and the right spec (aka searing light and glyph of smite) I can get a 3328 smite,
So just to confim that here's the math(ill even use the low range):
(.714*2278+707)*1.34=3127

So to state that at 2500 sp you get a smite of about 2500 is just wrong.

 

• typobox

Fair enough - I was being lazy/spacy and forgot to include talents/glyphs in the calculations. That being said... you need a 4140 Smite to get the 230 DPS that SW:P gets (again, amortizing the Smite over 18 seconds) - and don't forget that some of your talents are going to affect SW:P as well.

 

CuriousPriest

The 9% does affect SW:P sure. The haste to make a smite 1.5 sec cast is about 30%. Now i agree that right now, even fully raid buffed, that is a little unachievable, but come ulduar and beyond its reasonable to assume it wont be. The same thing goes for crit. It can be said that 30% is fair for this kind of a spec, but as that number goes up so does SoL, which is noteworty, 3100 damage that only costs a hasted GCD <3 . Not to mention that a single smite crit does ~4800. Smite scales better with spellpower so improving gear will reduce the gap between casting SW:P and just smiting.
Finally, I am going for as pure of a smite build as possible, and though currently gear supports throwing a SW:P into the rotation (it would be placed in the rotation after the 3rd smite and before HF comes of CD, because i have considered DoTs in the rotation) I'd rather beat my head against a wall and smite.

 

CuriousPriest

After going through the numbers again, the build (not counting crits) would fail by about 6k damage over 6.85 secs to a spriest. This ends my interest currently; however, I hold out a slimer of hope that the better spirit and spellpower usage of this build will win out near end game content *crosses figners*

 

Elimbras

I would be atonished if holy could be competitive in dps, at least on bosses (ie, including dots).

Basically, there is not enough scaling coefficient for holy.
Considering smite only, the scaling coefficient are :
- 20% from the glyph.
- 6% haste from enlightement
- 4% damage from focused power
- 3% crit from focused will
- around 3% haste from power infusion and aspiration
- 15% intellect, which I convert to around 200 intellect , so let's say 2% more crit
- 5% more crit from holy specialisation
- 25% haste from divine fury
- 10% damage from searing light
- spiritual guidance : back of the enveloppe estimation : about half spirit compared to sp. So you gain 12.5% more spellpower.
- surge of light, which is less than 4% increase in dps (see the model at the end of the post)

Total is 36% haste, 10% crit, 18% damage, and 12.5% spellpower so roughly a 90% scaling coefficient (remember that crit is only half more damage).

For shadow, you have (considering just mind blast) :
- 10% damage from Darkness
- 3% hit from shadow focus
- 10% damage from shadow weaving
- 4% crit from mind melt
- 15% damage from shadow form
- 200% crit damage (instead of 150%)
- 15% of spell damage conversion. Considering that the coefficient is going from 0.42 to 0.57, I value it with 30% gain in scaling factor.
- 10% damage from twisted faith
- 10% spirit convertion from twisted faith, that I value at 5% more spellpower.

Global gain is
50% more damage (I assume the bonus are multiplicative), 3% hit, 4% crit, 5% spellpower, 30% in scaling factor, plus the 200% crit bonus.

Basically, the scaling factor in spellpower is also 90%, plus the double crit bonus.
Therefore, smiting spam won't be better than mindblast spam, at best, they'll be equivalent.

I conjecture that the fact that mindblast can't be spammed, and that holyfire is in fact better dps than smite is more than compensated by the (better) dots that shadows has.
Then the double crit makes the difference.




Model for SoL :
SoL is 50% proc on every crit, giving an instant cast that can't crit.

What is the gain of SoL ?
I've a shorter Smite (1.5s GCD instead of 2s cast) for my next cast, then I'm back to normal.
So, when SoL procs, my damage for 2s is (adding 1 instant Smite + 1/4 of the Next smite)
SmiteDamage + SmiteDamage * (1+crit/2) / 4 = (1.25 + crit / 8) * SmiteDamage.

This is to compare with a normal Smite, ie (1 + crit/2) * SmiteDamage.
The net gain of SoL procs is then SmiteDamage * (0.25 - 3/8 crit).
Expressed in %, the gain is


The gain is 25% at 0%crit, and 0% at 66% crit.
Using a affine interpolation, the gain is about (0.25 - crit * 0.375).
It's frequency is crit, so the total gain in dps of SoL is crit * (0.25 - crit * 0.375).
The maximum is at 33% crit, and the gain is then 4%.

 

CuriousPriest

Sigh
I haven't really looked at Holy Fire tbh, i just know it has a lower coefficient, so which is better dps I cant really say; however, I do know that a fully specced spriest's mind blast must crit to beat out a smite, and then when the 5.5 CD is added, smite beats out Mind Blast hands down. The real reason spriest wins, is not the dots, wont be the dots criting or anything like that. It is plain and simply MF. As it stands mind flay gets a 55% damage increase from everything and its coefficient is increased by 15%. Even with moderate haste (11%) it ticks every .9secs, doing 1k+ and can crit. It may be a filler spell, but its the main chunk of dps for a spriest.

I do appreciate the discussion regarding the usefulness of SoL, and i was concerned that the GCD would impose some limitations; however, if blizz were to change this to something akin to what shaman's and DK's get (doesnt proc GCD) the spec may become slightly more competitive. But that is wishful thinking

 

Elimbras

Recall that MB is 1.5s whereas Smite (talented) is 2s cast. So it is normal that Smite is doing more damage per cast. It doesn't mean that Smite is doing more dps ;-).
I don't know why you are focusing so much on the coefficient of spells.
Except for a very few exceptions, and for talents, the coefficient is easy to compute : it's cast_time / 3.5s . The reason is then that 1 spellpower has the same "effect" for long spells or short spells. Otherway, short spells would be overpowered.
And by the way, you can't really say that MF is really the spell that make the difference, as it is only the "filler" of shadow, the spell you use when every other one is on cd (or ticking for dots), except for SW. If MF was better than MB, one wouldn't use it, and use MF only.


On another point, I don't think that SoL will be an automatic cast. The reason is that it's primarly a healing talent (as every talent in holy), and for healing, you don't want it to be automatic. And 2% dps per point is fine also ;-)

 

fetale

im holy i do damage a lot i need a review of the star weight but in a holy environement

sp
spirit
haste etc because shadow is very different from a holy dps(if we can really call holy a dps)