Shadow Priest -- Cataclysm - Page 14

Amateråsu · 02/12/11, 8:56 PM

Originally Posted by Althor

My testing on the PTR showed that Mind Sear *does* benefit from Empowered Shadows.
Also, even after the Shadow Power nerf, yes, we still saw an overall DPS gain between 4.0.3 and 4.0.6. An 8% nerf to our damage via the Shadow Power nerf didn't match that the large gains we got from Shadow Orbs being buffed, our Mastery scaling being buffed and Mind Blast being buffed.

Thank you for confirming that Mind Sears damaged is increased from empowered shadow. Regarding shadow power, are you then stating that the DPS decrease shouldn't be drastic?

Also does this mean that effectively we need to stack more mastery to account for the 10% removal of flat shadow damage decrease? Whilst I respect the fact that MB is now doing more of our damage in rotations, most of our damage still comes from DOTS - therefore can we not stack mastery to account for this change?

teiglin · 02/12/11, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by Althor

The results of the BiS profile with 406-2 (no scale factors) can be found at: Simulationcraft Results

As a normally healing-focused priest with minimal shadow experience, I'm trying to understand the rotation used and have a few questions:

Is it really better to mind blast over refreshing dots? It seems to me that the first mind blast entry should be conditioned on not having empowered shadows up, and there could be another line above SW: D indicating a mind blast with at least one orb. Or is the newly-buffed mind blast really that good, despite its DPET being less than half that of dots?

I notice the refresh time for dots starts at .5 + cast time on the dot; why is this not tick period + cast time? Does simcraft not have the period available? If not, why not something more reasonable? Even with lust and berserking the period of dots is still over 1.5s; having a .5s window to refresh seems absurdly tight and likely to result in suboptimal dot uptime. I don't have any logs of myself, but anecdotally I can say that maintaining over 95% VT uptime is pretty easy; the simcraft result of 92.7% seems awful.

Is clipping the third mind flay tick modelled by simcraft? It doesn't appear to be from the priority list. I know there has been debate on the issue in the past and I was curious if simcraft had a take here.

Althor · 02/13/11, 12:38 AM

The default action list is a combination of simming different combinations and adding in some fudge factors. It's quite possible it's not perfect but one of the benefits of our action lists being accessible means they're easy to change by users to try to find better alternatives. We likely do have access to the tick time in the action list though I would have to check it to confirm. Half a second was just a quick way for me to add in a little fudge.

We did support clipping Mind Flay in an earlier build of SimulationCraft though I'm not sure how to up-to-date that code is. It's something on my list of things to check.

Also I've fixed a bug in the Shadow Priest module where Darkness was being counted twice (a mix-up I introduced during the 4.0.6 PTR when Haste buffs like Darkness now show up on the character sheet which entailed moving our calculations from one function to another. I forget to remove the code from the old function).

This also means that the Shadow Priests have 3% less Haste now than in 406-2 with the corresponding less DPS. It also means that the results I published a few posts ago about the DPS difference across breakpoints was wrong. I have since fixed this. The actual breakpoints themselves were right in that post but the DPS differences were not as in the Simulator it was using incorrect breakpoints for SW:P, VT and DP (IDP was correct) as it had 3% more Haste than it should have.

For a geared Shadow Priest this means that the main breakpoints of note are:
218 Haste Rating for +154 DPS.
1255 Haste Rating for +37 DPS.
1602 Haste Rating for +78 DPS.
2589 Haste Rating for +47 DPS.
2737 Haste Rating for +11 DPS.
3205 Haste Rating for +77 DPS.

These of course are the DoT tick related breakpoints and are irrespective of latency.
There might be some other breakpoints related say to being able to squeeze in another Mind Flay or cast inside a Mind Blast cooldown however that type would be effected somewhat by latency so are harder to gear for.

Amateråsu · 02/13/11, 6:54 AM

Originally Posted by Althor

The default action list is a combination of simming different combinations and adding in some fudge factors. It's quite possible it's not perfect but one of the benefits of our action lists being accessible means they're easy to change by users to try to find better alternatives. We likely do have access to the tick time in the action list though I would have to check it to confirm. Half a second was just a quick way for me to add in a little fudge.

We did support clipping Mind Flay in an earlier build of SimulationCraft though I'm not sure how to up-to-date that code is. It's something on my list of things to check.

Also I've fixed a bug in the Shadow Priest module where Darkness was being counted twice (a mix-up I introduced during the 4.0.6 PTR when Haste buffs like Darkness now show up on the character sheet which entailed moving our calculations from one function to another. I forget to remove the code from the old function).

This also means that the Shadow Priests have 3% less Haste now than in 406-2 with the corresponding less DPS. It also means that the results I published a few posts ago about the DPS difference across breakpoints was wrong. I have since fixed this. The actual breakpoints themselves were right in that post but the DPS differences were not as in the Simulator it was using incorrect breakpoints for SW:P, VT and DP (IDP was correct) as it had 3% more Haste than it should have.

For a geared Shadow Priest this means that the main breakpoints of note are:
218 Haste Rating for +154 DPS.
1255 Haste Rating for +37 DPS.
1602 Haste Rating for +78 DPS.
2589 Haste Rating for +47 DPS.
2737 Haste Rating for +11 DPS.
3205 Haste Rating for +77 DPS.

These of course are the DoT tick related breakpoints and are irrespective of latency.
There might be some other breakpoints related say to being able to squeeze in another Mind Flay or cast inside a Mind Blast cooldown however that type would be effected somewhat by latency so are harder to gear for.

Thank you Althor, this was really clear - is it fair to say then if you can't reach a breakpoint through raw gearing - is it therefore better to use that non optimal rating on a different stat - for example critical or mastery?

Nimiks · 02/13/11, 8:23 AM

I just tested mind sear again and it indeed benefits from empowered shadows and probably dark evangelism while the ticks was still missing (not hitcapped without proc items). Kind of strange, I thought it was like the old mind flay. Good to know for Maloriak or Magmaw, I did not pay attention to EmpS uptime at all during AOE.

Clackbbw · 02/13/11, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by Nimiks

I just tested mind sear again and it indeed benefits from empowered shadows and probably dark evangelism while the ticks was still missing (not hitcapped without proc items). Kind of strange, I thought it was like the old mind flay. Good to know for Maloriak or Magmaw, I did not pay attention to EmpS uptime at all during AOE.

Empowered Shadow was already hot fixed on Mind Sear at the end of the 4.0.3

Bivvz · 02/13/11, 5:21 PM

Originally Posted by Althor

The default action list is a combination of simming different combinations and adding in some fudge factors. It's quite possible it's not perfect but one of the benefits of our action lists being accessible means they're easy to change by users to try to find better alternatives. We likely do have access to the tick time in the action list though I would have to check it to confirm. Half a second was just a quick way for me to add in a little fudge.

We did support clipping Mind Flay in an earlier build of SimulationCraft though I'm not sure how to up-to-date that code is. It's something on my list of things to check.

Also I've fixed a bug in the Shadow Priest module where Darkness was being counted twice (a mix-up I introduced during the 4.0.6 PTR when Haste buffs like Darkness now show up on the character sheet which entailed moving our calculations from one function to another. I forget to remove the code from the old function).

This also means that the Shadow Priests have 3% less Haste now than in 406-2 with the corresponding less DPS. It also means that the results I published a few posts ago about the DPS difference across breakpoints was wrong. I have since fixed this. The actual breakpoints themselves were right in that post but the DPS differences were not as in the Simulator it was using incorrect breakpoints for SW:P, VT and DP (IDP was correct) as it had 3% more Haste than it should have.

For a geared Shadow Priest this means that the main breakpoints of note are:
218 Haste Rating for +154 DPS.
1255 Haste Rating for +37 DPS.
1602 Haste Rating for +78 DPS.
2589 Haste Rating for +47 DPS.
2737 Haste Rating for +11 DPS.
3205 Haste Rating for +77 DPS.

These of course are the DoT tick related breakpoints and are irrespective of latency.
There might be some other breakpoints related say to being able to squeeze in another Mind Flay or cast inside a Mind Blast cooldown however that type would be effected somewhat by latency so are harder to gear for.

I thought it was already stated that with the changes to DoTs a while back that if you refresh a DoT without letting it fall off it simply continues to tick dmg normally therefore if you don't ever let a doT fall off then the more haste you have the quicker your DoTs will tick without any interruption.

Althor · 02/13/11, 8:07 PM

When you gain a new tick on a DoT it extends it also means that the DoT's duration is suddenly longer than it was before the extra tick was added. This means that you have a little bit longer before you have to recast the DoT which also means that you can cast more filler in between. This leads to a DPS increase.

Megabyte · 02/14/11, 5:40 PM

Has anyone been able to get reliable stat values out of the new (version 3) simcraft build? I've been reading reports that haste has been largely devalued which doesn't make sense (even considering the 10% Shadow Power nerf).

So if anyone has the latest stat values can you please post for comparison?

Edit: Also, Althor thank you for all the great work you have been putting in finding and fixing bugs in previous builds

revulva · 02/14/11, 7:41 PM

I have written an in-depth analysis of stat weights using the latest version of SimC (406-3). I think this is the best version of SimC so far as far as spriests go - the results look much more realistic and in-line with what I see in the game.

Mr. Robot - Shadow Priest Stat Weights Explained

Don't worry, I have a TLDR version at the top which sums it up if you don't care about the numbers as much.

I did see it devalue haste with certain sets of gear a few times, but in general the results looked to be what we would predict.

DrakeArconis · 02/15/11, 11:57 AM

has anyone else noticed that with the 2 ranks in the talent tree, Spirit on your gear gives you 0.01 more "hit" than adding straight hit for every 40pts of hit?

Arphastas · 02/15/11, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by DrakeArconis

has anyone else noticed that with the 2 ranks in the talent tree, Spirit on your gear gives you 0.01 more "hit" than adding straight hit for every 40pts of hit?

Yeah Spirit to Hit conversions have never been quite precise, but with mastery making a climb up I have been dropping hit slightly to get more burst.

Originally Posted by revulva

I have written an in-depth analysis of stat weights using the latest version of SimC (406-3). I think this is the best version of SimC so far as far as spriests go - the results look much more realistic and in-line with what I see in the game.

Mr. Robot - Shadow Priest Stat Weights Explained

Don't worry, I have a TLDR version at the top which sums it up if you don't care about the numbers as much.

I did see it devalue haste with certain sets of gear a few times, but in general the results looked to be what we would predict.

Well you would have to expect that eventually you would get so much haste that we would lose burst damage compared to gearing for mastery/crit. Personally the difference in haste from 2300+ is negligible.

ildon · 02/15/11, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by DrakeArconis

has anyone else noticed that with the 2 ranks in the talent tree, Spirit on your gear gives you 0.01 more "hit" than adding straight hit for every 40pts of hit?

That's the 3% from the human racial.

Sui-san · 02/15/11, 2:15 PM

Originally Posted by revulva

I have written an in-depth analysis of stat weights using the latest version of SimC (406-3). I think this is the best version of SimC so far as far as spriests go - the results look much more realistic and in-line with what I see in the game.

Mr. Robot - Shadow Priest Stat Weights Explained

Don't worry, I have a TLDR version at the top which sums it up if you don't care about the numbers as much.

I did see it devalue haste with certain sets of gear a few times, but in general the results looked to be what we would predict.

I have a question on the subject of your analysis on the Helter Skelter settings. You explain that Mastery sees a decrease in targets with high movement (which I agree with) and target switching (where my concern is placed) due to Mind Flay being cut during these situations.

My concern is that you neglected to take into account that in multi-target fights, it's likely that a spriest is going to throw up multiple incarnations of SWP, which also triggers Orbs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like this would possibly balance out, or even increase the efficiency of Mastery due to more chances at proccing Orbs (via more ticks of SWP). Any thoughts on this?

BW.Shadowmend · 02/15/11, 3:06 PM

Originally Posted by Sui-san

I have a question on the subject of your analysis on the Helter Skelter settings. You explain that Mastery sees a decrease in targets with high movement (which I agree with) and target switching (where my concern is placed) due to Mind Flay being cut during these situations.

My concern is that you neglected to take into account that in multi-target fights, it's likely that a spriest is going to throw up multiple incarnations of SWP, which also triggers Orbs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like this would possibly balance out, or even increase the efficiency of Mastery due to more chances at proccing Orbs (via more ticks of SWP). Any thoughts on this?

Hm, are you thinking of a fight like Heroic Maloriak? To be honest, I do not have much trouble keeping ES up during the all the target-switching, since, like you said, SWP is proc'ing orbs all over the place, and I just need to Mind Blast to keep it up as well as replenishment (nevermind the fact that I will often refresh a SWP on those adds with a MF).

In short, I share your concern.