I have the T13 4piece and I am curious what the haste breakpoints are (if any worthwhile) above 2200 haste with Dark Intent.
I have 2893 haste at current and have DI in every raid. So my question is with the 4piece bonus from T13 is what are the breakpoints between 2200 - 3000 haste.
From the testing I have done thus far just watching World of Logs attempts on heroic Ultraxion 25man with my current gear setup/reforge setup , doing the normal rotation or going mindspike-mindblast-applydots during each shadowfiend uptime it seems to essentially just be a wash in terms of damage output. Neither really comes out ahead.
So taking the current information if I met the significant breakpoints with haste around the level I am current, would dropping 3-4-500 haste increase the shadowfiend(mindspike/mindblast) cooldown timing enough to warrant that big of a change.
Simcraft with my current gear profile places mastery above haste which isn't unexpected. My question is how much can I drop my haste aka to what breakpoint for the shadowfiend-mindspike-mindblast rotation before it becomes counterproductive. OR if considering this is even worth the effort.
Only IDP breakpoint - 3202 haste. Others are unachievable.
I have seen that chart but it wasnt clear if the chart was taking full raid buffs into consideration before mentioning DI etc.
If that chart was taking full raid buffs into consideration before the mentioning of DI / goblin. I would be able to reforge all the way down to 2284 haste without the concern of missing any haste breakpoints as IDP isnt a breakpoint, though I am not near the 3202 haste mark anyway.
I have seen that chart but it wasnt clear if the chart was taking full raid buffs into consideration before mentioning DI etc.
If that chart was taking full raid buffs into consideration before the mentioning of DI / goblin. I would be able to reforge all the way down to 2284 haste without the concern of missing any haste breakpoints as IDP isnt a breakpoint, though I am not near the 3202 haste mark anyway.
Only haste buff Shadowpriest gives himself omg! (Except DI ofc, which mention at this chart)
And there is a talent Darkness. Which is not optional really.
Reaching haste breakpoint reset its duration to bigger value - so you need recast it less.
Its not very big dps increase.
Last time I checked it was something like ~100-150 in BiS gear.
I just recently started playing spriest again, so I'm not entirely sure on how this new dot clipping mechanic works, it would be great if a thorough explanation was added to the first post. From what I collected by searching internets, looks like it adds the new full duration after the next tick, so if you're just before a haste breakpoint you'll effectively have a shorter lasting dot?
Also, does this mean that when I simply apply the dot, its duration will depend on my haste? Or will it always show the full 15 sec or whatever, but the last second or so will do no damage?
Also, now that I finally got my 4pc, it seems that mastery stacking might be viable for fights where short burst is needed? E.g. spine, hagara? Also, from what I'm seing, the choice of whether to use spike/blast during sf/archangel depends mostly on the amount of mastery, no? Mine is pretty low and I'm not seing any dps increase from doing that. I just tried it on LFR deathwing, using fiend for when cataclysm starts, as a result mind spike was #1 overall, until 2nd phase.
I'm not entirely sure on how this new dot clipping mechanic works
There are basically 4 rules to how DoTs works:
Each DoT ticks once every 3/OverallHasteMultiplier seconds (so if your overall haste is 10%, it'll tick once every 2.73 seconds)
The duration of a DoT is however many ticks is closest to the original cast time (so for Vampiric Embrace, the number of ticks is 15/TickTime = 15/(3/OverallHasteMultiplier) = 5*OverallHasteMultiplier rounded to the nearest integer. So once OverallHasteMultiplier is more than 1.1 (i.e. 10% haste), you'll be above 5.5 ticks expected, and the DoT duration will be for 6 ticks (16.36 seconds). The next haste breakpoint is at 30% haste, etc.
A DoT refreshed before the previous DoT falls off adds first drops any ticks except the next tick off of the existing DoT, then applies its full duration to the existing DoT, and recalculates the damage per tick and the "schedule" of ticks based on effects the player has on them. So if you're just above the 6 tick breakpoint for VT, and you recast it just as the second to last tick of the current DoT is occurring, the DoT will be up for 19.09 seconds before finally falling off.
The damage per tick of a DoT has no relation to the number of ticks of the DoT (so the DPM of VT stays constant with respect to haste, until you reach a haste breakpoint, where it jumps by 20%, then 16.7%, then 12.5%, etc.)
Thanks for the explanation, I kinda figured everything except the rounding part - good to know blizzard doesn't always round stuff down.
More random thoughts on 4pc and ms/mb spam:
- Any addon that shows pet swing timer? Like quartz does, but for pets.
- Would /cancelaura Mind Melt be useful for making sure you don't lose GCDs? I guess there's no point macroing it to spike or blast, though.
- This sounds like a pretty hard thing to implement in simcraft action list, mostly due to pet swing timer. Any ideas?
- I read through most of the discussion, but didn't see any definitive answer to when this would yield a dps increase. My guess is that it's mostly dependant on mastery, so if I could get simcraft to sim it, I could get some nice graphs. Or, idk, perhaps write a small program that would run the rotation.
Obviously any time we need some burst damage, the 4piece mindspike/blast shines. Think Burning Tendons on Spine, Oozes on Yor'sahj. I personally am not getting DPS gains by using it in the regular rotation, the DPS definitely spikes a little but it evens back out due to ramping up the dots again.
My question to everyone is this, would it be advantageous to use this at the start of pulls? Think in terms of Ultraxion, where most guilds are popping lust at the start. We can easily get lust on our Shadow Fiend. Should we be Mind flaying to get Evangalism built up, and then popping AA and Fiend and going with the MS/MB spam? Since we would have had to ramp our dots up at the start regardless, would this be our new optimal opener? So far my dummy play indicates that DPS starts higher.
- Would /cancelaura Mind Melt be useful for making sure you don't lose GCDs? I guess there's no point macroing it to spike or blast, though.
How would cancelaura on Mind Melt stop you from losing GCDs? Mind Melt at 2 stacks makes your Mind Blast instant, so it reduces the cast time to your base GCD.
How would cancelaura on Mind Melt stop you from losing GCDs? Mind Melt at 2 stacks makes your Mind Blast instant, so it reduces the cast time to your base GCD.
Mind Melt causes a Mind Blast cast right after a Mind Spike to come immediately. As a result, it's guaranteed to be a 0 orb mind blast, instead of the more likely 3 orb mind blast if the fiend could get a swing in. As a result, it's advantageous to cancelaura Mind Melt to increase DPS in such a rotation.
Mind Melt causes a Mind Blast cast right after a Mind Spike to come immediately. As a result, it's guaranteed to be a 0 orb mind blast, instead of the more likely 3 orb mind blast if the fiend could get a swing in. As a result, it's advantageous to cancelaura Mind Melt to increase DPS in such a rotation.
Ahh, hadn't thought of pushing the GCD up by casting mind blast - I had simply been holding my mind blast until I got 3 orbs. This makes sense, and might help squeeze an extra mind spike during the fiend duration.
Some testing with simulationcraft yielded me the following results (all using simc 430-4, BiS t13h profile, patchwerk fight 450s(+/-20%), elite player skill, 10k iterations):
0) For reference, default action list gave 46570 dps.
1) Default actions have the character open up with a (0 orb) mind blast, then apply dots, then use fiend. Tweaking things so it starts with fiend (so the first blast should have 3 orbs, and put up Empowered Shadow before the dots are first applied) gave a ~360 dps increase.
2) Using mind spike while shadowfiend is active (lower priority than mind blast, higher priority than dots) gave a further dps increase of ~1990 (if the mind melt buff was cancelled. Without cancelling, dps was increased by ~1480).
3) Shadow Word: Death (sub 25%) does more damage than mind spike, even with 3 orbs. Including it was another ~210dps increase.
4) Shadowfiend had a shorter average cooldown than archangel (thanks to Sin & Punishment). Synchronising them (by delaying shadowfiend until archangel was available) was a ~800 dps loss.
5) It's also worth noting that when I tried these changes with an older simc (430-2), it showed that using mind spike was a small dps loss, rather than a dps gain. So hopefully this later version is more accurate there and not less
This was my final actions list (additions to the default list are in red, nothing was removed). Total dps increase from default: 2560. The extra actions should only fire for characters with t13 4pc, so there will be nochange for profiles without it. It may be cleaner to add if=!pet.shadow_fiend.active to the dot casts and move mind spike down, rather than duplicate the sw: d / movement actions, but this works.
4) Shadowfiend had a shorter average cooldown than archangel (thanks to Sin & Punishment). Synchronising them (by delaying shadowfiend until archangel was available) was a ~800 dps loss.
Could you post the line you used?
If I remember correctly the average interval for SF was 91.3s using T12H without the 2pc bonus active, I can see it being less than 90s with higher haste and crit from T13 gear, but it's still a probability distribution and assuming a gaussian distribution (reasonable assumption) then archangel would be ready before SF about 50% of the time, I'm guessing your line would make the simulation delay SF cast until the next archangel if archangel was cast before SF.
With the actions listed in my previous post (and the T13H profile), shadowfiend has an average time between uses of 78.9s (and archangel had 92.7s).
In my earlier tests (where I saw the 800dps loss), I tried to account for the possibility of either one coming off cooldown first, so was delaying both shadowfiend and archangel until the other was either ready or active. But in recreating these results today, I noticed two things.
Firstly, that I had made a mistake (due to the line that uses shadowfiend at the start of the fight), so that the first archangel was being delayed until the second shadowfiend was ready. And secondly, using the T13H profile, shadow fiend is always coming off cooldown before archangel (although, of course, that may not hold true for lesser-geared profiles).
So all that is necessary to sync them is to add a conditional to shadowfiend (if=buff.dark_archangel.up suffices for the T13H profile, but you'll probably want to use something like if=buff.dark_archangel.up|cooldown.archangel>30 for more general use, so if archangel does come up first you don't miss a fiend) and both show an interval between uses of 93.7s. And this shows a ~60dps loss compared to the unsynchronised case.
It seems there's a bug in 430-4. The uptime of the dots is much higher than it should be, SW:P got a 95% uptime even with MSp having a total cast time of more than 60s in a 450s fight.
If I use the option log=1 the uptime goes back to ~80% so I can't identify what is causing it, the 430-2 version has the expected uptimes.
Edit: I tried the aura_delay change suggested in the simcraft page and there was no difference in the simulation.
It seems there's a bug in 430-4. The uptime of the dots is much higher than it should be, SW:P got a 95% uptime even with MSp having a total cast time of more than 60s in a 450s fight.
If I use the option log=1 the uptime goes back to ~80% so I can't identify what is causing it, the 430-2 version has the expected uptimes.
Edit: I tried the aura_delay change suggested in the simcraft page and there was no difference in the simulation.
In-game it can be realised (without delaying) with macroing "/cancelaura Mind Melt /cast Mind Blast", but it doesnt work that way.
Let me explain. If you cast MS several times and get 2stacks of MM and then press that macro, you will lost 2x stacks of MM, then get 1x stack from the last MS and then cast MB with half the cast time (around 0.55sec). And you cant be sure that SF will land a hit in that interval. So that simcraft behaviour should be reworked I think.
There is another little issue with MS-spam.
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Let me explain. If you cast MS several times and get 2stacks of MM and then press that macro, you will lost 2x stacks of MM, then get 1x stack from the last MS and then cast MB with half the cast time (around 0.55sec). And you cant be sure that SF will land a hit in that interval. So that simcraft behaviour should be reworked I think.
That also happens to me, I thought it happened due to my latency since I haven't heard about it anywhere else. I usually play with 160-170ms.
If you delay your MB cast by about 0.1s you'll be able to cast it without any stack of mind melt, I think this is best in this case.
How's the T13 4pc testing coming? Any verdict on whether it's worth it to go into Spikes with every Fiend? It seems like an obvious choice on pull but from what I've gathered so far, opinions differ on mid-fight (disregarding fight-specific burst phases of course). Is there more data by now to corroborate either side?
Off the bat, of course, it's a good opener to get that "empowered shadow" buff rolling. I've always hated the moments where that first orb just won't proc. So far, I've been using it mid fight for killing a 2nd target, one that needs to die quickly, but as for single target fights, my question is essentially the same as yours, how long does a single target need to be alive before it's worth rolling dots instead of bursting? Should we just ignore the 3 free orbs every couple seconds and MB on CD while keeping up the dots? Or take the 7-8(ish) MS with the 2 free MB all at full orbs?
As for cancelling the MM stacks and erasing your free MB, I just don't get it, why would you do that? why not just wait a fraction of a second and instant MB with 3 orbs?
Alathor tested a while back and found Mind Spike spam during Sfiend to be a slight DPS loss compared to the normal rotation. Dig through this thread or the 4.2 one for his posts.
Off the bat, of course, it's a good opener to get that "empowered shadow" buff rolling. I've always hated the moments where that first orb JUST WON'T PROC lol. So far, I've been using it mid fight for killing a 2nd target, one that needs to die quickly, but as for single target fights, my question is essentially the same as yours, how long does a single target need to be alive before it's worth rolling dots instead of bursting? Should we just ignore the 3 free orbs every couple seconds and MB on CD while keeping up the dots? Or take the 7-8(ish) MS with the 2 free MB all at full orbs?
As for cancelling the MM stacks and erasing your free MB, I just don't get it, why would you do that? why not just wait a fraction of a second and instant MB with 3 orbs?
Because your Mind Blast cast time is the same as your GCD anyway, so it makes little difference. They are simply theorycrafting that if you add the /cancelaura, then you don't have to think about it. (The assumption there is that the Shadow Fiend will hit between the time it takes your Mind Blast to cast)
Because your Mind Blast cast time is the same as your GCD anyway, so it makes little difference. They are simply theorycrafting that if you add the /cancelaura, then you don't have to think about it. (The assumption there is that the Shadow Fiend will hit between the time it takes your Mind Blast to cast)
That's actually not the point. The point is that if you /cancelaura the buff, you can start the cast and GCD directly while still having the SF hit in between.
If you don't cancel the buff and wait for a shadowfiend hit (as suggested), the GCD won't start until you do so, so basically you lose time you could use for casting your next spell already.
This is a kill log from Heroic Spine. It features 3 spriest. We all had slightly different reforge and corruption responsibility:
Talents - Max Mast >= Haste >> Crit
Missionary - More hybrid but haste= crit> mast
Bamboulish - haste > crit>>mast
Now there has nvr been a question of if 4pc is worth it for spine or not but the data outlined shows that the ms/mb rotation to have a value of 1.1-1.4 mil per usage. Granted results will be slightly lower because Bottled Wishes inflates the damage a fair amount.
I honestly don't think SimC is ever going to provide conclusive evidence on the issue. We should be looking on a fight by fight basis to determine value of this 4pc. When looking at DS the only fights you " lose DPS cause of ramp up after" is Morchok/Ultra. Ultra is arguable though.
Yor'shaj - use 4pc either for or right after oozes
Warlord - after tenticle phase while he takes more damage.
Hagara - after ice or lightning phases
Ultra - time VT to fall of right after a twilight. When u come back in use the CDs. ( ramp now or later it's really the same)
Blackhorn - there are SO many target switches and opportunities the whole fight. After Goriana goes away in P2 open on Blackhorn with it.
Spine - every tendons
Madness - again with all the target swapping and necessity for things to die fast it's so strong.
Reality is all the fights present opportunities to use it very well. It's obvious that during it's time frame that it does way more damage than standard rotations. Use it well.
Also 2 minor side notes:
1-If you time it with VT falling the ramp up time after is only 4.33 GCDs for 5 ticks of MF and SWP cast
( IMP DP is a DPS gain and U need to cast VT anyway.)
2- time to wait for them to sync has a DPS value relative to fight length. Aka we are killing Ultra in ~5:45. No matter what I do I'm only getting 2 zerking casts and 4 AA. 4 AA cast on cd is about 4:35 so through out the fight I can delay it up to a total of (5:45-18)-4:35= 52 secs and still have max uptime. Same is true of fiend. Which will be much more random. With my spine mastery reforge I had to try-hard to get it up for every tendon and we were waiting for 2 min CDs. The real theroycrafting to be done is what combination of haste and crit do we need to force Fiend to consistently sync up with AA +/- 10 sec.
I have noticed an interesting trend regarding haste and mastery; while simcraft will show either ahead slightly based on small differences in gear (at least for the 10 or so sets I tested myself), people seem to have very disparate opinions on their respective value. Additionally, simcraft does not take into the account specific situations of some DS fights, further skewing the results.
Is there more to this? One could assume that with the t13 4pc mastery comes out ahead, since MSp/MB-spam doesn't seem to scale very well with haste. However, does this offset the general value of haste for DoTs? Is it fight-specific? I could imagine that some fights favor 4pc-burst (Warlord, Hagara, Spine) while one fight (Madness) provides a natural haste-buff that could potentially further decrease the value of haste.
My question now is this: ignoring fight-specific reforges, what is the best general direction? Get haste breakpoints and go for mastery after that? Just follow simcraft for the specific gear-set? Has there been more research done as to the interaction between 4pc and the value of haste/mastery?
I'm a little confused by the opening as well. Assuming its ultraxion, and assuming that DA/SF->MS/MB spam is a good idea.
I'm trying to do the following:
MF till 5 stacks -> pop DA/SF/trinket -> 3xMS MB -> 3xMS, MF to 5, MB -> apply dots and continue with normal rotation.
I'm using Bottled Wishes, so I'm trying to apply dots before it expires. This also assumes that hero/lust is used on pull. Also, this way VT will be reapplied next time when hero is about to fade.
Or maybe I'm completely wrong here and I should just stick to normal dot rotation.
Concerning reforging, I managed to get exactly to 1742 hit and 2737 haste (with 500ish crit and 1800 mastery) - is that again a bad idea and should I just stack haste instead (though in my gear I could only reforge like 150 haste to mastery).
Lastly, if mind flay follows dot mechanics, does it get a 4th tick with enough haste (hero/nozdormu) or is it always 3?
12/29/11, 6:20 AM
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