4.3 Discipline Priest Compendium - Page 7

UnholY_Prince · 01/19/12, 4:32 PM

Sure you can do it, but on those fights there's really very little reason to. Morchock has no enrage. Yorsahj can easily be killed before the Enrage with 6 DPS. Hagara you could make an argument for sure, but again there's very little reason to play it so risky. Ultraxion and Warmaster are the only 2 fights you NEED to drop a healer for DPS to make Enrages.

Szeretlek · 01/20/12, 5:58 AM

Originally Posted by UnholY_Prince

Sure you can do it, but on those fights there's really very little reason to. Morchock has no enrage. Yorsahj can easily be killed before the Enrage with 6 DPS. Hagara you could make an argument for sure, but again there's very little reason to play it so risky. Ultraxion and Warmaster are the only 2 fights you NEED to drop a healer for DPS to make Enrages.

There is another point of view.
If you can take less healers, why do it other way? More DPS always better.
But if you HAVE to bring more healers, you should consider it.

And about Ultraxion10hm - it will be easy to deal with enrage even with 3 healers (Our last fight with one ppl stupid death at the middle of the fight was 5:00 long). But there is nothing to do for him =( I really think, with enough gear HPal can solo heal it soon.

Feralminded · 01/20/12, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by UnholY_Prince

Yorsahj can easily be killed before the Enrage with 6 DPS.

This may be true on 10 man but on 25 the fight is actually pretty tightly tuned. Our first 25 man kill was a nail biter with 6 healers/2 tanks (had plenty of 5% wipes) so we had to seriously consider dropping to 5 healers which makes it pretty rough during Red/Black/Yellow (fine all other combo's though with proper CD use). Now we out-gear it and have time to spare but it's a weird fight in that more healers doesn't make it easier outside of that one color combination. It's the one fight in here that you can't easily out-gear in total since the healing "trick" is not really HPS based. Yes it helps somewhat but its usually not throughput that causes the wipe, it's a single mistake by a healer or accident.

UnholY_Prince · 01/20/12, 7:46 PM

Originally Posted by Feralminded

This may be true on 10 man but on 25 the fight is actually pretty tightly tuned. Our first 25 man kill was a nail biter with 6 healers/2 tanks (had plenty of 5% wipes) so we had to seriously consider dropping to 5 healers which makes it pretty rough during Red/Black/Yellow (fine all other combo's though with proper CD use). Now we out-gear it and have time to spare but it's a weird fight in that more healers doesn't make it easier outside of that one color combination. It's the one fight in here that you can't easily out-gear in total since the healing "trick" is not really HPS based. Yes it helps somewhat but its usually not throughput that causes the wipe, it's a single mistake by a healer or accident.

How is this relevant to the discussion about 10m healing raid compositions? The OP was talking about his 10m guild leader refusing to use more than 2 healers on fights they didn't need to.

littlejim · 01/21/12, 4:00 PM

We also have always preferred 2 healers on Yorsahj heroic. The extra dps actually makes the healing easier by killing mana voids and fixate adds more quickly. The additional healer rarely improves the chance of keeping players alive, because of how often purple is kept alive (you're holding back rather than spamming). The only time the third healer actually helps is on yellow/black/red/green (killing yellow ofc) and we just explode the adds with the extra dps and cover the damage with cds or hero if needed.

Szeretlek · 01/22/12, 5:00 AM

The only time the third healer actually helps is on yellow/black/red/green (killing yellow ofc) and we just explode the adds with the extra dps and cover the damage with cds or hero if needed.

I thought it isnt possible to survive red+green in hard mode. Are you sure you kill yellow when red+green+black+yellow come?
We always kill green in that case, gather close to each other as possible, pop up bloodlust and heal through double red damage, blow up first wave of adds and just forget about second wave of adds (dots + aoe after smashing one of next slimes)

littlejim · 01/22/12, 5:44 AM

Originally Posted by Szeretlek

I thought it isnt possible to survive red+green in hard mode. Are you sure you kill yellow when red+green+black+yellow come?
We always kill green in that case, gather close to each other as possible, pop up bloodlust and heal through double red damage, blow up first wave of adds and just forget about second wave of adds (dots + aoe after smashing one of next slimes)

Yep, we always kill yellow no matter what. On this combination we just position early, hugging the boss as tightly as possible in a circle without splashing green and cover the red/black damage with hero/healing cds, etc. Spike damage on single players can be high, but we've been doing it this way since week one of heroic modes and it works for us I guess. Anyone who is really getting nuked (red + fixate) is expected to just use a healthstone or a defensive cd (i usually call it out on ts). And yea, as soon as the adds are dead it's very stable. Last week we even survived this combination with no deaths and no heroism, because someone screwed up and called for hero earlier in the fight...

As for 2 - healing Spine heroic, agreed it can probably be done once mana is no longer an issue. We tried it a few times when we were first progressing on the fight and we were just running oom around the 8 min. mark. The tank damage might be too high at the end for two healers, but I guess that varies from tactic to tactic.

And yea the Silent kill of Madness Heroic with 2 healers was definitely bugged at the end.
I think I saw another guild that killed it with 2 healers 2 tanks, although I can't remember where I saw the log. I'll try look for it if I get time today. If I remember correctly, this mystery guild was able to do it by using res elixirs and 2 shadow priests for passive healing, although they may have also gotten a bug at the end of the fight (I never checked).

*EDIT* Here we are, found it (Hordlinge). It doesn't seem like they bugged it considering everyone dies at the end

and I can't confirm that they used res elixirs, that was just an assumption that I made earlier:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Genzen · 01/27/12, 2:03 PM

Soximus asked about the value of 403 [Maw of the Dragonlord] vs 397 [Scalpel of Unrelenting Agony], and Maw was clearly recommended. My question would be how does the raid finder version (384) of [Maw of the Dragonlord] compare to the normal versions (397) of [Scalpel of Unrelenting Agony] and [Vagaries of Time]?

Will the lower item level of the LFR Maw leave it disadvantaged over the others, due to less spell power (though it does actually still have +7 Into over the 397 weapons, discounting sockets), or will its proc still be too powerful?

teiglin · 01/27/12, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by Genzen

Soximus asked about the value of 403 [Maw of the Dragonlord] vs 397 [Scalpel of Unrelenting Agony], and Maw was clearly recommended. My question would be how does the raid finder version (384) of [Maw of the Dragonlord] compare to the normal versions (397) of [Scalpel of Unrelenting Agony] and [Vagaries of Time]?

Will the lower item level of the LFR Maw leave it disadvantaged over the others, due to less spell power (though it does actually still have +7 Into over the 397 weapons, discounting sockets), or will its proc still be too powerful?

I have essentially this same problem, using 403 maw vs. 410 vagaries. I've essentially concluded that fights where the maw proc is at least decent (zon'ozz, yor'sahj, ultraxion, and madness), maw has a clear advantage, usually making up 5-10% of my healing done on those fights. Elsewhere, I subjectively find the higher stats from vagaries outweigh the value of the proc from maw. I should note that I do 10mans, so maw probably has even higher value in 25s--probably enough to use for morchok.

I would never use scalpel compared to any of those other options; I think it's been mentioned recently, but scalpel is underbudget by 50-60 int because of its missing red socket.

Perkeyone · 01/31/12, 6:25 PM

Could someone explain to me why you guys consider haste such a valuable stat?
I understand why it is valued over mastery, but after crunching the numbers, Ive found crit to be a much more attractive stat.

A 1% increase in haste, which takes 128.06 rating points to achieve, constitutes a 1% increase in healing per second for any spell with a cast time... right? There doesnt appear to be any synergy between haste and any other rating.
1%/128.06=.007809

A 1% increase in crit , which takes 179.28 rating points to achieve, does different things depending on the spell. Crit has synergy with mastery, so i will evaluate it at base mastery and at 12 mastery.

For greater heal, heal, flash heal, binding heal, etc, it increase the chance to land a heal for double the normal amount (more if using the meta gem), which in turn procs DA for 30% of the heal before mastery (base mastery is 8, so at a minimum, DA will be 36% of the heal.) However, for every crit you land, you are not landing a non-crit heal.
1%/179.28*(2*1.03*(1+.3*(1+(8*.025))-1)=.010049 (with base mastery)
1%/179.28*(2*1.03*(1+.3*(1+(12*.025))-1)=.010394 (with 12 mastery)

For atonement heals from smite and holy fire, the crit effect does not double the heal, it only adds an extra 50% (however the meta gem effect is applied twice, once on damage and again on heal.)
1%/179.28*(1.5*1.0609*(1+.3*(1+(8*.025))-1)=.006493 (with base mastery)
1%/179.28*(1.5*1.0609*(1+.3*(1+(12*.025))-1)=.006760 (with 12 mastery)

For POH, non-crit heals apply DA, and crit heals apply double dip in DA.
1%/179.28*(2*1.03*(1+.6*(1+(8*.025))-(1+.3*(1+(8*.025)))=.012177 (with base mastery)
1%/179.28*(2*1.03*(1+.6*(1+(12*.025))-(1+.3*(1+(12*.025)))=.012699 (with 12 mastery)

In short, crit seems to be stronger for healing spells (ie not smite and holy fire, since they only crit for 150%) than haste, and the value of crit increases as mastery increases. Crit and haste both increase HPS, but in addition to HPS, crit also increases HPM, procs inspiration, and affects POM.

I really don't follow the logic behind saying haste is the strongest stat for disc.

fandros · 02/01/12, 11:35 AM

Here is an oversimplified example to help explain how haste effects crit

spell cast time = 2 sec
crit rate = 75%
spam cast duration = 180 sec
total number of spell cast = 90
total number of spell crit = 67.5

spell cast time = 1.333 sec
crit rate = 50%
spam cast duration = 180 sec
total number of spell cast = 135
total number of spell crit = 67.5

Perkeyone · 02/01/12, 3:46 PM

Originally Posted by fandros

Here is an oversimplified example to help explain how haste effects crit

spell cast time = 2 sec
crit rate = 75%
spam cast duration = 180 sec
total number of spell cast = 90
total number of spell crit = 67.5

spell cast time = 1.333 sec
crit rate = 50%
spam cast duration = 180 sec
total number of spell cast = 135
total number of spell crit = 67.5

sorry, the fact that it is over simplified makes it inaccurate.
im comparing point-for-point increases, and since haste and crit scale at different rates (128.06 vs 179.28) you cant just trade 25% crit for 50% haste.
i want to see trading X crit rating for X haste rating.

Dontdotmeup · 02/01/12, 4:19 PM

It seems to me that alot of people forget one of the most important things about healing. Its not always just about stats or healing when you are testing them but also about the healing you can do in any given scenario. I have seen priests pull 40K hps in their test and then go into the DS raid and get us wiped because they dont know how to move out of the way of icewaves.... most important of all is to know what you are doing first. After that i would say to spec and glyph according to the specific fight you are trying to do. Gear is always important as well as gems and enchants/reforging ... but there is no "one size fits all" spec or set of stats... it can all vary with your playstyle as well as the encounter. Of course the stat conversions are different and we have to remember that, but dont stack all haste or all mastery just because someone else tells you to. I would recommend that people try reforging and regemming/ changing glyphs/ specs and figure out what works best for them.

Thomo15 · 02/01/12, 4:40 PM

Such a helpful guide, the math tbh isn't my thing, i'm not so good at it. hence i was wandering if you could prove the benefit of inner will vs inner fire? I've been speaking to disc priest in game, some say fire some say will. but was wandering what the proof is behind them.

Ayreon · 02/02/12, 3:08 AM

If you need the movement speed increase, use Inner Will. Otherwise, use Inner Fire.