Elitist Jerks MoP beta discussion

 09/06/12, 2:07 PM #151 Ninahagen Von Kaiser     Ninahagen Undead Priest   Throk'Feroth (EU) When estimating the shifting point, mana returns match (solace equates bender in term of mana returns = shifting point). Thus you cast exactly the same healing spells and spend the same time healing (but of course, you need some additionnal free time to build mana whith Solace, this is part of the conditions of the shifting point). There is no (yet) "I need extra time to cast PoH" in this case. Of course, if Solace were to give more mana than Mindbender in some combat, with obviously alot of free time, you'd need extra free GCD (on top of what's necessary to have the extra mana) in order to make use of the supplemental mana you got. But even if you do not have this extra time, Solace remains better (not really, I'll explain why, just get my point), because while the throughput is the same (you do not have the leisure to cast another extra spell), you have more (useless) mana. You stated "this" changes alot the results, but I'm unconvinced. Thinking as you do should not change anything much, and does not hinder Solace more than the "simple" method does already. Now, what's obvious is the fact that the more we'll have spirit (and regen stats), the more we'll use mana and heal, the less we'll have time to cast Solace. So Solace won't really be a growing mechanic. Also, there is an obvious downside with Solace spam : you may lose reaction. I'm unsure about it, but I think spamming Solace might clog the universal cooldown (even if you cancel one Solace because you have to react, universal cooldown could slow you down). This is why I think when being "only" near the shifting point, we should stick with Mind Bender or the other talent, and not Solace. Solace's advantages must be strong enough (maybe the damage component?).
09/06/12, 3:51 PM   #152
Havoc12
King Hippo

Night Elf Priest

Silvermoon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Ninahagen When estimating the shifting point, mana returns match (solace equates bender in term of mana returns = shifting point). Thus you cast exactly the same healing spells and spend the same time healing (but of course, you need some additionnal free time to build mana whith Solace, this is part of the conditions of the shifting point). There is no (yet) "I need extra time to cast PoH" in this case. Of course, if Solace were to give more mana than Mindbender in some combat, with obviously alot of free time, you'd need extra free GCD (on top of what's necessary to have the extra mana) in order to make use of the supplemental mana you got. But even if you do not have this extra time, Solace remains better (not really, I'll explain why, just get my point), because while the throughput is the same (you do not have the leisure to cast another extra spell), you have more (useless) mana. You stated "this" changes alot the results, but I'm unconvinced. Thinking as you do should not change anything much, and does not hinder Solace more than the "simple" method does already. Now, what's obvious is the fact that the more we'll have spirit (and regen stats), the more we'll use mana and heal, the less we'll have time to cast Solace. So Solace won't really be a growing mechanic. Also, there is an obvious downside with Solace spam : you may lose reaction. I'm unsure about it, but I think spamming Solace might clog the universal cooldown (even if you cancel one Solace because you have to react, universal cooldown could slow you down). This is why I think when being "only" near the shifting point, we should stick with Mind Bender or the other talent, and not Solace. Solace's advantages must be strong enough (maybe the damage component?).
You are making a mistake: Mindbender gives you extra spells compared with shadowfiend. So you cant just compare the mana return. When you have solace you have shadowfiend not mindbender and in order for solace to be equal to mindbender you need to be able to cast extra spells. Thus you always need to factor in the amount of extra time taken to use up the mana you get from solace.

What you are saying is only valid if you looking only at the free time that you have when you are using mindbender, but then that does not provide a good quantitative comparison. On page 9 I derived an approximate formula that takes all this into account:

$N < \frac{60*(1+haste)-(2.143+T/M)*4.833}{T}$

N is the maximum number of casts per minute that you are able to cast with just the standard shadowfiend. T is the average cast time of your spells and M is the average mana cost.

Basically there is not one breakpoint. It all depends on what you are casting. Fast and expensive favours solace. Slow and cheap favours mindbender. E.g. If your job was to spam as much flash heal as possible you have to pick solace over mindbender (actually you would take FDCL, but you get my point). That is why just comparing the mana return does not give a good idea of the relative values of the talents. It does not take into account that the relationship is affected by what you are casting.

A good example is PoH without haste. The break point is at N < 18 PoH per minute or 1 PoH every 3.19seconds. That 0.69 free seconds every 3.19 so 1 free GCD every 6.9s, which is very different from what you calculated. Basically if to chain cast you need 1 solace every 6.9s you get no benefit over mindbender.

So you *MUST* take into account the time taken to use up the mana generated by solace.

Even if the return is the same there is still a niche for mindbender. For example if you have gimmicks during the encounter that screw up mindbender timing, or if you have enforced stops that are interspersed with periods of extremely heavy mana expenditure (i.e. artificially reducing your casts per minute). DPS races are always going to favour mindbender, since it does feckloads of damage.
.

Last edited by Havoc12 : 09/06/12 at 5:00 PM.

09/06/12, 7:07 PM   #153
Ninahagen
Von Kaiser

Throk'Feroth (EU)
 You are making a mistake: Mindbender gives you extra spells compared with shadowfiend. So you cant just compare the mana return. When you have solace you have shadowfiend not mindbender and in order for solace to be equal to mindbender you need to be able to cast extra spells. Thus you always need to factor in the amount of extra time taken to use up the mana you get from solace.
No.
I'm not comparing Mindbender and Shadowfiend. I'm comparing Minbender vs Shadowfiend + Solace. Nobody is going to play with no talent.
I understand when you say Mindbender gives more mana than Shadowfiend, and thus "extra spells" (that's not always true, depends your mana regeneration, but that's extreme and I disgress). What I'm "comparing" is 'when do mindbender and shadowfiend+solace give the same mana, and how much free time is required for Solace in order to perform equally?'.

If my mana regeneration already allows me to chain cast, I don't need mana, and I can't even cast Solace anyway (better chain heal). If some fight forces me to perma run, I can't cast solace. If my mana regeneration allows me to cast heals most of the time, Solace is next to useless. If my mana regeneration is SO BAD that I have plenty of free time (always OOM), Solace is kinda good.

Your formula assumes knowing what is the average cast time and average mana cost. This is fine, but a bit weird. You formula assumes also that all the time spent 'not casting' equals free time, which may be used for Solace, which is untrue. This is not fine. You don't know the amount of free time just by knowing the spell that have been cast during the fight. The N you find is just a theorical number, assuming maximum free time available.

 A good example is PoH without haste. The break point is at N < 18 PoH per minute or 1 PoH every 3.19seconds. That 0.69 free seconds every 3.19 so 1 free GCD every 6.9s, which is very different from what you calculated. Basically if to chain cast you need 1 solace every 6.9s you get no benefit over mindbender.
Your formula just states that in a PoH spam gameplay (with fixed haste), when you spam 1 PoH every 3.19 seconds and 1 Solace every 6.9 sec, and all this whithout ever moving, then Solace is as good as Mind Bender.
It's not very useful, pratical, to know that. You don't know if your mana regen allows you to spam PoH like that, you don't know if you'll have the opportunity to cast all Solaces needed.

09/07/12, 4:58 PM   #154
Havoc12
King Hippo

Night Elf Priest

Silvermoon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Ninahagen No. I'm not comparing Mindbender and Shadowfiend. I'm comparing Minbender vs Shadowfiend + Solace. Nobody is going to play with no talent. I understand when you say Mindbender gives more mana than Shadowfiend, and thus "extra spells" (that's not always true, depends your mana regeneration, but that's extreme and I disgress). What I'm "comparing" is 'when do mindbender and shadowfiend+solace give the same mana, and how much free time is required for Solace in order to perform equally?'. If my mana regeneration already allows me to chain cast, I don't need mana, and I can't even cast Solace anyway (better chain heal). If some fight forces me to perma run, I can't cast solace. If my mana regeneration allows me to cast heals most of the time, Solace is next to useless. If my mana regeneration is SO BAD that I have plenty of free time (always OOM), Solace is kinda good. Your formula assumes knowing what is the average cast time and average mana cost. This is fine, but a bit weird. You formula assumes also that all the time spent 'not casting' equals free time, which may be used for Solace, which is untrue. This is not fine. You don't know the amount of free time just by knowing the spell that have been cast during the fight. The N you find is just a theorical number, assuming maximum free time available. Your formula just states that in a PoH spam gameplay (with fixed haste), when you spam 1 PoH every 3.19 seconds and 1 Solace every 6.9 sec, and all this whithout ever moving, then Solace is as good as Mind Bender. It's not very useful, pratical, to know that. You don't know if your mana regen allows you to spam PoH like that, you don't know if you'll have the opportunity to cast all Solaces needed.
The calculation that you have done can only be interpreted in one way. If you have mindbender and you can have 1GCD free every 8s due to being oom and you are still equal with solace. That on its own is an unusable criterion. You either need to look at the logs or you need to factor in spell costs and your overall mana regen. The only thing that you can take from the log is how many solaces you have to cast to keep casting, but in that case your calculation cannot use that number. Your calculation is only valid when the number (and type) of casts between mindbender and solace are the same, i.e. you have to determine how much free time you have when using mindbender to see if that free time can accomodate enough solace. this cannot be decided from the logs, because not all time spent not casting is free time. Unfortunately a solace user cannot audit himself and decide if he is better off with mindbender.

It seems that you missed the point of my calculation. Even if you can't chain cast heals, solace might still not be as good as mindbender. It all depends on how many spells you can cast and how much they cost, i.e. what is the maximum number of spells you can cast. My calculation allows us to compare quantitatively any spell combination without even looking at the fight. If your mana regen is enough to allow you to cast a certain number of spells then solace can never be better than mindbender. If you are below this limit then there will eventually be some fight where solace is better than mindbender. The maximum number of spells is easy to calculate theoretically for a certain combination of spells and a good estimate of the total mana we have available.

My model allows us to get a good idea of how much better one talent is compared to the other and that is crucial in determining what spell to take. Your calculation does not allow you to make an educated guess, it just provides a yes or no answer, but expends roughly the same computational effort.

If you can cast at least 1 PoH every 3.19 seconds then shadowfiend is automatically better, no matter what the fight is like and what you do in it. You can accurately calculate how much mana is available to you for a given fight length, or you can obtain an even more accurate estimate from the logs. I.e. you can tell exactly what is the maximum number of PoHs that you can cast per minute. Movement and fight gimmicks only matter when solace turns out to be better and then my model allows for a quantitative comparison, while yours doesn't.

Last edited by Havoc12 : 09/07/12 at 5:05 PM.

09/07/12, 6:06 PM   #155
Ninahagen
Von Kaiser

Throk'Feroth (EU)
 Originally Posted by Havoc12 My model allows us to get a good idea of how much better one talent is compared to the other and that is crucial in determining what spell to take. Your calculation does not allow you to make an educated guess, it just provides a yes or no answer, but expends roughly the same computational effort. If you can cast at least 1 PoH every 3.19 seconds then shadowfiend is automatically better, no matter what the fight is like and what you do in it. You can accurately calculate how much mana is available to you for a given fight length, or you can obtain an even more accurate estimate from the logs. I.e. you can tell exactly what is the maximum number of PoHs that you can cast per minute. Movement and fight gimmicks only matter when solace turns out to be better and then my model allows for a quantitative comparison, while yours doesn't.
If 3.19 is the sweet spot, aka when your regeneration allows you to spam PoH every 3.19, what should be concluded when we cannot spam PoH like that?

We see the sweet spot, we do not attain it. What to think? Solace or Mindbender?
It would be nice if you could provide the logical steps I should follow with your formula.

Sweet spot ?
yes > ...
no > ...

09/08/12, 1:03 AM   #156
Havoc12
King Hippo

Night Elf Priest

Silvermoon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Ninahagen If 3.19 is the sweet spot, aka when your regeneration allows you to spam PoH every 3.19, what should be concluded when we cannot spam PoH like that? We see the sweet spot, we do not attain it. What to think? Solace or Mindbender? It would be nice if you could provide the logical steps I should follow with your formula. Sweet spot ? yes > ... no > ... Thank you for your input.
If you can't hit the sweet spot then first you determine how many spells you can cast. Then

Number of extra casts per minute with solace: $\frac{60*(1+haste)-N*T}{(2.143M+T)}$

Number of extra casts per minute with mindbender: 4.833/M

With this you can decide for youself whether hte difference is large enough to warrant using solace

 09/08/12, 5:47 AM #157 Ninahagen Von Kaiser     Ninahagen Undead Priest   Throk'Feroth (EU) Okay, let's say I have 3 extra cast per minute with Solace (I'm just mading it up), and 1 with Mind bender. The number I get for Solace, with your method, would be the maximum of extra casts I could achieve, in other words it assumes I may spam Solace all the time, and never have to move (or cast dispell or whatever). So, what to think then? Would the decision not be greatly based on the estimated real free time available relatively to the maximum free time assumed in the formula? If yes, what's the point of your formula, estimating average mana cost, estimating average cast time, estimating average haste, etc... all that to ultimately have to estimate the real free time available, which is the only assumption I use myself?
09/08/12, 6:05 AM   #158
Havoc12
King Hippo

Night Elf Priest

Silvermoon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Ninahagen Okay, let's say I have 3 extra cast per minute with Solace (I'm just mading it up), and 1 with Mind bender. The number I get for Solace, with your method, would be the maximum of extra casts I could achieve, in other words it assumes I may spam Solace all the time, and never have to move (or cast dispell or whatever). So, what to think then? Would the decision not be greatly based on the estimated real free time available relatively to the maximum free time assumed in the formula? If yes, what's the point of your formula, estimating average mana cost, estimating average cast time, estimating average haste, etc... all that to ultimately have to estimate the real free time available, which is the only assumption I use myself?
I am afraid you are wrong. You can't estimate free time accurately from the logs (you can estimate average cost of spells from the logs though). You have to calculate it by knowing what spells you use and what the mana available to you is with mindbender. The computational effort involved is no different from what I am doing. The only difference is that you are only using it to get a more or less useless yes or no answer

Decision is purely number of casts and not free time. At 3 casts per minute solace is almost certainly going to be better. At 1 or 0.5 casts per minute its unlikely to be so. Your method can't really tell these apart.

casting dispel also spends mana so its factored in into the spell selection. The only dead time, which boosts mindbender is beiing unable to cast like piloting the construct on ambershaper, or if there is cutscene or the raid is taking no dmg during a transition (you can casts instants while moving especially as holy).

Free time can be instantly calculated from the formula as well. It is just the nominator in the equation. The only defference between our methods is that I convert that to actual spells and that is critical because free time has a very different value depending on your spell selection.

Last edited by Havoc12 : 09/08/12 at 6:35 AM.

 09/08/12, 4:52 PM #159 Ninahagen Von Kaiser     Ninahagen Undead Priest   Throk'Feroth (EU) You did not answer my question. Let's say I have 3 extra cast per minute with Solace (I'm just mading it up), and 1 with Mind bender, using your formulas. Note that, since your formula assumes that "free time" is just the time spent not casting, which could be time spent moving or time stunned, or whatever, those "3" extra cast minutes are in reality 3 maximum extra cast per minute (because that's the maximum I ould get by spamming Solace, not considering you may not be able to cast solace all this time). What are the logical steps I should use from now on? After seeing those numbers, 3 and 1, what should I conclude? Is solace better? Is mind bender better? Do I need additionnal parameters? Thank you for your input.
09/08/12, 5:06 PM   #160
Havoc12
King Hippo

Night Elf Priest

Silvermoon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Ninahagen You did not answer my question. Let's say I have 3 extra cast per minute with Solace (I'm just mading it up), and 1 with Mind bender, using your formulas. Note that, since your formula assumes that "free time" is just the time spent not casting, which could be time spent moving or time stunned, or whatever, those "3" extra cast minutes are in reality 3 maximum extra cast per minute (because that's the maximum I ould get by spamming Solace, not considering you may not be able to cast solace all this time). What are the logical steps I should use from now on? After seeing those numbers, 3 and 1, what should I conclude? Is solace better? Is mind bender better? Do I need additionnal parameters? Thank you for your input.

Not for 3 casts per minute. 3 casts per minute means you will almost certainly come on top with solace. No fight that I have seen so far up to and including the heart of fear has enough dead time to allow mindbender to beat a 3 casts per minute deficit. Moving does not mean you can't cast. PWS+Glyphed renew+PoM+cascade+glyphed holy fire/penance, means disc can spend a good chunk of time on the move healing. For holy moving is a minor inconvenience. The fact that you can't cast solace while moving is immaterial. You can cast several solaces at once when you get the chance.

At less than 1 cast per minute I would choose mindbender automatically. Even if solace comes out on top it will be a small advantage and mindbender is less of a hassle to use.

At 2 casts per minute its hard to say, solace is probably better, but it could go either way depending on the fight.

Basically anything above 3 casts per minute --> solace
Anything below 1 cast per minute --> mindbender

That however is a bit of a personal choice. 18 spells over 6 minutes can add up to well over 1 million healing. PoH heals for 140k almost, cascade for over 200k. When the average healer share in a 6 minute fight is about 20m. You can see that each cast per minute advantage is practically 1.5%-2% extra healing.

 09/08/12, 5:55 PM #161 Ninahagen Von Kaiser     Ninahagen Undead Priest   Throk'Feroth (EU) Your answer does not make much sense to me right now (it's not aggressive, I'll explain). Let's take 2 and 1, since you are not at ease with unseen made up examples. You said I'd have to calculate N for mind bender and solace, in the case I'm not able to attain the mana regeneration needed to spam PoH (which should be likely). So here they are : I gain 1 extra PoH per minute with Mind bender, and 2 with Solace (if you are able to spam it all 'not casting healing spell' time). Notice that you say it's not annoying to move, because you can insta cast. But we are examining a (probable) situation where you are not able to sustain spamming PoH every 3.19 seconds (which is why we are calculating N for mind bender and Solace). Thus mana is an issue, thus you are not spamming whenever you have the time : you are trying to manage your mana. Notice also you said that you'd choose Mind bender over Solace if Solace was just only 1 maximum extra cast per minute, or less, and were saying "Even if solace comes out on top it will be a small advantage and mindbender is less of a hassle to use". Since Mind bender is providing 1 extra cast per minute, and Solace could provide only maximum 1 (in the best scenario ever), how can you envision the hypothesis that "solace might come out on top"? I'll assume it's just miscommunication. Anyway, back to my sheep : 1 extra PoH / minute with Mind bender, 2 extra with Solace IF I'm able to use Solace at all (which I don't know yet in your formula alone). You seem to say that in non extreme cases (extreme mana regeneration allowing us to spam PoH, or extremely poor mana regeneration that gives us "much" time to spam solace, thoses cases your complicated formula covers easily), your formula is not sufficient, and it "depends" on the fights. Fair enough. If you formula is not enough, and we must examine the fights, what factor must we examine? How do we conclude if Solace is better or not? Is it by guessing the real free time we could spend spamming Solace in any given fight? Last edited by Ninahagen : 09/08/12 at 6:12 PM.
09/09/12, 1:00 PM   #162
Havoc12
King Hippo

Night Elf Priest

Silvermoon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Ninahagen Your answer does not make much sense to me right now.... If you formula is not enough, and we must examine the fights, what factor must we examine? How do we conclude if Solace is better or not? Is it by guessing the real free time we could spend spamming Solace in any given fight?
I would choose mindbender if solace provided 1 more cast per minute than mindbender does or less. I.e. if solace gives 2 casts per minute and mindbender 1 I would take mindbender. If solace gives 4 casts per minute and mindbender 1 cast per minute I would definately take solace.

Its not just extreme cases, its most cases. Unfortunately there is a narrow range between +1 and +3 casts where its just not clear cut and it will never be clear cut. The only way to find out which is better is to try both in the fight and see.

Just looking at PoH casts is a bit academic. No one spams one spell only. You make a best guess estimate of what your spell usage is and you input it in the formula, which is not complicated at all and it gives you a mostly easy to interpret answer. There is a narrow range where it sorta fails.

It is impossible to estimate our real free time.

09/09/12, 5:38 PM   #163
Ninahagen
Von Kaiser

Throk'Feroth (EU)
 I would choose mindbender if solace provided 1 more cast per minute than mindbender does or less. I.e. if solace gives 2 casts per minute and mindbender 1 I would take mindbender. If solace gives 4 casts per minute and mindbender 1 cast per minute I would definately take solace.
I thought you were meaning 1 more cast per minute, that's why I mentionned miscommunication ^^

Less than 1 cast per minute and more than 3 casts per minute are the "extremes" (the extrema) cases. Even if one of them may be the one we commonly see (in that case the extreme case is the common one). That's what I meant by extreme, but I guess it is misleading.

It is not impossible to estimate real free time.

Personally, I won't use your formula. Maybe a cool alternate (for me, and for you it's the main) formula. All in all, too much assumptions and yet, still poor precision (you said you'd take Mindbender over Solace even in a 2 v 1 scenario, aka even if Solace is 100% better than Mind Bender, so the results apparently are to be greatly interpreted). The +1 +3 range is the intermediate one, and is not well covered by your formulation. I'd even say the +0 +3 range is the intermediate one, since you'd take Mind Bender over Solace even between +0 and +1, but for personnal reasons. You are not bothered by this, and maybe for good reasons. I'm bothered.

Nice chat though, have fun and good day.

09/09/12, 5:49 PM   #164
Havoc12
King Hippo

Night Elf Priest

Silvermoon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Ninahagen It is not impossible to estimate real free time
How would you do this.

 09/09/12, 6:29 PM #165 Ninahagen Von Kaiser     Ninahagen Undead Priest   Throk'Feroth (EU) By parsing the scripted events? Being stun, being MC, boss being in transition phase, teleportation, debuff on you preventing you from healing, any technique requiring you to move, any phase requiring burst dps from everyone -so you can use solace instead of smite for instance-, all this is in the logs? Or by watching your own videos? Or by simply playing? If you know you have to cast one Solace every 8.5 seconds in average, or 3 Solaces every 25 seconds, or 7 every minute, in order for Solace to just compete, and you are discovering a new fight, you know if you are idle or not, and how much? Or even by testing a little bit Solace in a fight you are "learning"? Just by counting them at the end of the fight, you discover instantly if it's good enough or is to be ditched. You don't need to compute anything, you don't need to evaluate "average cost", "average cast time", you don't need to evaluate your overall mana regeneration. Just read the fight duration and the number of solaces you casted, divide one by the other, end of the story. The "yes or no" formula is excellent in those cases.

 Elitist Jerks MoP beta discussion