As ppls said, manacost raise with level (btw, I think this is nonsense), so PWS will cost around 10k mana @90lvl. To make it free you need around 6k spirit.

For example from last BK (t6) tier to last WotLK tier (t10) attributes doubles. From last Wotlk (t10) to last Cata tier (t13) attributes triples.
If we even assume that from last Cata tier to last MoP tier we quadruples we will have around 12k spirit.
And around 50k spirit for expansion after MoP lol =)

But for now, if prepatch hits live - disc mana regen will be destroyed. 150% spirit for rapture may be fine for gigantic MoP numbers, but for Cata numbers all it can - make PWS cheaper. Eventualy.

From what I've read in the EN Forum FDCL outperforms Mindbender at roughly one PPM. In addition I've never been a huge Fan of HoH+Fiend especially not with 4 Minute Fiend CD and the higher output since you will have to spend much more mana and time in order to fully benefit from the mana gains, thus reducing the potential number of SF Casts per fight.

Only for instant Spells and Penance. If you want to maximize Rapture returns it's rather unlikely you'll have penance ready that second. So that leaves us with Renew to potentially benefit...

10% SP on all of our Spells compared with reduced costs for PW:S, Renew and PoM isn't really worth the tradeoff imho. Especially since I've never felt the need to use Renew as a Disc and will even less, once Heal is correctly benefitting from Grace. So It's basically using IW just for the sake of having a cheaper PW:S. And, well at best once in 10 Seconds a PoM, much likely way less - and PoM already is a rather cheap spell.

Can't confirm that unless stacking mastery. FH gives me more HpS at better HpM. And again FH is the most expensive Alternative. A lot of the times a Heal/Penance would do the job as well and then again I'm stuck with PW:S just to get Rapture. During low incoming DPS this is a killer for Manareg.

How would that happen without rupture?

PWS costs 6% of your base mana pool, like SpS and flash and that increases as you go up in level. At level 87 it costs 9600 mana. At level 90 it will probably cost 13-14k, by the looks of things.

At the moment on live I have 2578 spirit base, but I am not stacking spirit I am stacking int, haste and mastery. However the spine tirnket is worth 880 spirit, so that raises to 3458 spirit. If I get the hc spine version it will be even more and I can equip my DM:Tsunami card for another 500 spirit so I can run with 3958 spirit (up to 4458 with my cloak proc). I can also reforge and regen for another 300 or so spirit at the very least which takes us to roughly 4300. With the 5% buff that can go up to 4500 and with the cloak proc it can reach 5000. A rapture proc would then return 6750-7500 mana, which is more than PWS costs at level 85. Even more so if I am in inner will.

If the patch was rolled in today, I can do almost all encounters pretty much the same way as before. I would just spam PoH/PWS like I did before and have mindbender for double sfiend return on top of 25% archangel that I can stack quickly instantly using penance. I think I will be alright pretty much. The only problem is that I would simply not be able to single target heal anything. So I would not bother tank healing at all. Just help a tank healer by using my PWS on the tank.

At level 87 mana becomes tigher but that is because my mostly 410 gear is begining to lag behind.


2% of base mana is roughly 1/3 the cost of a flash heal/SpS/PWS per 5 seconds. So it adds an additional spell every 15 seconds or 4 spells per minute. Its not as groundbreaking as it sounds.

Also what are you referring to. Dungeons at level 87 is quite different to soloing at level 87 and very different from both dungeons and questing at level 85. Although spell costs and mana pool based regen scale up. Spirit regen stays the same if you have lvl 85 410 gear.

At level 87 mana is tight for disc since the removal of greater heal. A big problem is that with the mastery buff my PWS absorbs 55k and iver 110k if I get a 4set proc. Because fo the 15s timer on PWS sometimes it does not get used up on the tank, especially when the 4 set procs. The result is I lose a 10k rapture mana return, which is not nice. Aside from that if ppl don't suck I am can get by unless I have to flash heal people. The lack of greater heal makes it an absolute pain though when ppl other than the tank take a lot of damage.

DI also fails at the moment since it does not ignore weakened soul like its supposed to and SpS is rubbish bad so I end up not casting it. It drains my mana fast a lot of it doesn't get absorbed and the healing on the tank goes to overheal, because PWS and the occasional penance/holy fire are more than enough for keeping the tank alive. Most of my mana goes to heal the rest of the group, which is actually quite difficult with the tools available to me.

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I am interested in the holy version of DI. It appears that PoM cast under DI will heal the target instantly, jump to another target and heal it instantly, jump again and heal instantly so so on. Is that how it works? If it does its absoludely awesome. Coupled with FDCL and free flashes, I would say that holy is in a damn good place right now for both single target healing and aoe healing.

I've tried it but the biggest problem is tracking the proc. So can't really tell you how fast it jumps. Maybe I'll give it another shot.

As of Disc tank healing I think using Penance/HF on the Boss and filling with Heal to stack SoL might be a fairly good mana-saver at the moment. Using that strategy it might be worth Glyphing PW:S since the Heal can both crit, profit from grace and Reduce the shield itself, thus making in more likely to proc Rapture. I will have to test that. DI is off the table for me (even if it would be working) since I don't use SpS and first and foremost the change to PI (costing no mana with the next patch) making it way more appealing.

That depends on a lot of things. You can use mindbender twice in a 5 minute fight no problem as disc and as disc you also have penance and renew to cast and you can't really spam flash even with FDCL. In an AoE fight where you are casting AoE heals mostly lot FDCL is terrible for disc. I have tried both now as disc and I can confidently say that whoever said FDCL is better needs to rethink. Its silly to say that HoH+fiend automatically reduces your number of SF casts per fight. It all depends on the fight duration. In a 6 minute fight you will HoH+fiend on the 2nd use of fiend, not on the first and you will as early as you would without HoH. Chaining HoH with fiend is an absolute no brainer and if you do it the smart way you lose nothing at all. In a 3minute fight you can only cast fiend once anyway and mind bender will give you a nearly full mana bar with HoH.

Even without grace renew has the same HPM as heal in inner will only its instant. Renew in inner will out perform heal in inner fire, so it makes sense to go inner will and use it, unless you have FDCL. For disc I would take mindbender instead. FDCL is too reliant on SpS and heal for disc which is rubbish. If you have to cast other spells, and you do have to do that a lot as disc, then you lose a ton of value from it. For holy FDCL is incredibly good value due to serendipity, but for disc its quite a lot less. If you have to PoH spam at some point, you won't be getting free flashes, but mindbender will give you the same return.


You forgot PoM. Also assuming that you can't have penance up is really odd. You can cast renew and PoM if you need to do and delay casting up to 2.7seconds and you will still be able to chain penance+a cast. So that can be total of 4 spells with 15% haste. I do so quite regularly on live if I am tank healing. It makes perfect sense to get a renew up.

10% spell power is not 10% more healing, its below 5%. Try it for yourself if you don't believe me. Then you have overheal and the value of IF evaporates faster than a drop of water in the desert. When single target healing IW is superior.

FH gives you more HpS at better HpM, when you dont consider everything. This requires that you have grace on the target which is not a given first of all. Second it requires that you are in inner fire, which as I have explained before is not a great idea, unless HPM does not matter. Third it does not take into account overheal, which for PWS on the tank should be zero, under challenging circumstances, but for FH it wont be even if you are solo healing. Fourth it ignores the buff balance. @lvl 87 the mastery buff gives you 2.2k mastery and the 10% spellpower buff boosts both spells equally. The only thing that helps flash is crit, but crit is a very poor stat for disc, you will be avoiding it. As our mastery stacks higher and higher FH will lag behind PWS quite quickly. It already lags behind in inner will, but soon it will also lag behind even in inner fire.

SpS flash and heal are the alternatives to PWS not penance and renew, which is a spell on CD and renew a spell you can't cast all the time. You won't be replacing penance and renew casts with PWS, but SpS flash and heal casts. Heal and SpS have a bit better HPM than PWS, but drastically lower HPS and the HPM different is so small in inner will, that it's not worth bothering when it comes to calculating the return from rapture. Basically even without rapture it would make sense to cast PWS if you could afford it. For emergency use PWS is already much better than flash if the target takes enough damage to use it up and it will become even better than flash heal for HPS. For HPM they are fairly close at the moment, but only in inner fire and with haste stacked level 85 gear. Stack mastery and spirit as you should for dungeons and the slight advantage flash has in inner fire is going to disappear.

All in all, the returns from rapture are not affected significantly by the decrease in HPM that comes from using PWS frequently, UNLESS you have FDCL, which is not necessarily the best way. Also if you are mostly single target healing it's a no brainer to be in inner will and use PWS frequently at the moment. In inner fire it is also a great idea to use renew especially on grace stacked targets.

(First of all and on the risk of getting a warning or infraction for simply writing that: I really enjoy this discussion with you even though we have extremely contradicting views on almost all of the spells and talents of a disc, so please take no offense on my replys to you)

Well "twice in a 5 minute fight" assumes that you'll burn enough Mana in the first minute for mindbender to fully take effect which isn't a given. Renew isn't a given as well since I assume you're talking renew5 and I'm not yet sure we'll have sufficient haste@90.

Did not yet play in a Raid in MoP so I'm happy to hear your thoughts since in the new 5 mans FDCL is an outright nobrainer.

Well it isn't really a no brainer since you're assuming you will cast fiend w/o HoH and then have enough mana (and nobody else needing your HoH) to not use HoH in the next 4 minutes. On the other Hand we're talking about one ppm to even out the mana gains and giving you a stacking instant heal with a relatively long window to use up.

Then again so far I have no reason to believe I will be using Inner Will. Renew 4 Ticks for 5003 for me 3120 Mana. "Heal" heals for 19785 @2.400 Mana. So Renew has 6,41HpM and Heal has 8.23 HpM Heal HpS is Higher, Renew HpCT is higher but overheal is way higher. Heal will proc and refresh Grace, Renew won't and Heal will proc FDCL while Renew won't. And since the SpS's healing component now correctly benefits from Grace, evel SpS outperforms Renews HpM and HpCT (plus is assumed to stack and renew grace and proc FDCL). I can't see a scenario where I'd go Inner Will just for the sake of a spell that I have good backups for instead. Unless of course a fight with permanent movement.

Well let's take a look at our heals. Penance, HF, PoM, PoH and Renew don't Proc. PoH is the only one of those we will be casting w/o cooldown/duration restriction. So we have Heal, Smite, SpS and FH which will proc FDCL and have no restrictions plus not only they will proc FDCL, they will either stack and/or renew Grace or reduce the penance CD and stack/or refresh Evangalism synergize with DI if skilled. So far I can't picture a general scenario where FDCL would underperform Mindbender by that much that I would a) forfeit FDCL and b) would usw Inner Will to boost PW:S and Renew.

That would mean delaying Penance in order to get it to profit from BT. Since Penance now (assuming the tank has 3Grace) is best used on a hostile target on CD AND PW:S has a Cooldown it's rather likely that I won't have Penance aligned with PW:S. unless I want to give up a lot of Penance Throughput. Same for PoM. Why would I align that with BT? It is only worth it's money the more jumps it has. Even losing one jump does not dignify recasting it just for the sake of BT. So that would leave me with Renew - that doesn't align with BT either and (as stated above) is really not a "must have". So we're at 1 heal plus maybe one instant heal.

But what would we need IW for? PoM Accounts for at best 5-7% overall healing (last time I checked and that time still with the 60% bonus 5 charges glyph). And that 7% if we're willing to forfeit it's HpM by recasting it when everybody's full just for having some AoE Buffer. So that leaves us with PW:S and Renew. Renew can by all means be replayed by SpS or Heal. So that leaves us mainly with PW:S at best once in 6 Secs. Don't really see that outshining IF.

True that. But it's not even remotely given PW:S is off of CD. Plus IF you use it as an emergency heal aka non tank (since the tank will very likely be having grace) you can do this once every 6 seconds.

Let's just say HpS does not matter and IF gives 5% more healing. So even ignoring the HpS gain you'd need more than 1/3 of your healing coming from instant heals to use IW to save mana. With a 6 Second CD on PW:S and gaining no mana if you recast PoM with charges left I don't see how this would happen.

While this is indeed a valid point for PW:S compared with FH (again, I only used FH to show the most mana inefficient alternative we have - and in low damage phases it would not be the FH but rather heal or SpS) this does again make a point for SpS replacing any renew, thus making Inner Will obsolete.

I beg to differ. When tank healing it's a no brainer to not only spec FDCL but be in inner Fire since you'll AT best be using PW:S once in 15 Seconds and even if you WOULD keep Renew up (and there is really no need to, since SpS and Heal outshine it in HpS and HpM AND will proc FDCL.) it would not dignify being in IW.

FDCL also procs from smite - which still reduces the cd of penance via ToT afaik. I agree its a talent that seems more suitable for 5 mans, but atm I'm running the available dungeons on atonement heals, the occasional shield and free flash procs. I had to use poh quite little, as for spirit shell, I just cant find its place yet. The free flashes are nice for stacking grace too, especially if I choose to use penance for evangelism stacks.

We do have sufficient haste for renew 5 thanks to borrowed time. I cast a bunch of renews when I get borrowed time. Even renew 4 outperforms heal both in HPCT and in HPM in inner will right now (3.5k mana compared with 3.2k mana, but heal does not benefit from grace).

FDCL just makes healer easier in 5 mans. Its an absolute non-brainer for holy due to the synergy with greater heal, but for disc it actually underperforms in my hands. Its return is far lower than calculated.

Your making the usual theorycrafter mistake when thinking about tank healing, which is ignoring overheal. Even if you cast nothing but 1 PWS every 15seconds, which is not the case due to the divine insight. Every heal except PWS is highly likely to overheal. SpS much more so due to its 8s duration. Heal you will mostly be casting when the tank is full after SpS and the majority of them will overheal partially or completely. For the same reason a lot of the FDCL procs overheal. Looking at disc tank healing on live you are looking at least 20-30% OH and well over half your casts overheal. If there is two healers on the tank even more so. Thus the spellpower bonus from IF is almost completely wasted. Tank healing with inner will means that casting 1 PWS every 15 seconds is equivalent to 480mp5, with completely negligible loss in HPS. Actually IF right now makes things a lot worse, because it makes it slightly harder to absorb a PWS. Try it out and you will see, you will end up with a ton more mana at the end of the fight.

In the finished product DI is likely to be functional so we will probably be able to cast PWS more frequently, since it boosts HPS, while the HPS benefit of just being in inner will over IW is so small that its tough to observe on logs. I used to switch back and forth between IW and IF on live when tank healing so I would use my mana, until I checked the logs. There was no observable difference between being in IF and IW.

SpS does not perform better than heal and renew, except on paper. In real terms it is terribad. It absorbs so much that it invariably expires partly unused and with tank self healing, pom jumps, renew ticking and PWS which takes at least 10s to go, the heal is almost complete overheal. I rarely cast it and most of the time its a non tank target and cursing my luck because renew is too risky and penance on CD.

For AoE healing on live I am permanently in inner will since 1:1 PWS/PoH is more HPS than straight PoH even with archangel on. Add to that the fact that a lot of PoHs are cast on groups which are either competely or partially full and PWS/PoH HPS is dramatically higher than straight PoH spam. Since inner will allows me to maintain a higher PWS to PoH ration I am in IW permanently. If I cast 2:1 PoH/PWS in MoP, I will also be in inner will for aoe healing.

Instead of arguing here I urge you to try my strat out in a dungeon (as disc ofc) and post your results.

Since PI has no mana costs... why on earth would I spec DI?


Why would FDCL procs overheal? They stack a 20s buff which refreshes. It's your choice to use it.

If SP is wasted, mana conserve is wasted as well...

Willing to try but how on earth would I end up with "a ton more mana" given that I sacrifice 5% Healing for 15%less mana, thus only gaining a raw 10% on instants, of which I only use one - and that just to get mana...

We would be - if we'd spam SpS a lot. But then again, at the current state: Why on earth would we want to cast PW:S often? And forfeit PI mana savings just to do so? (PI not only adds SF ticks, it costs nothing AND reduces mana costs by 20% - you'd seriously give that up for the off chance to get an additional shot on the most expensive heal in our arsenal?

Why would I ever skill Archangel at the moment?

Last time I tried I went out of every boss encouter with 80%+ Mana, still applying for Holy spec. (And I got 372 gear+ what I picked up during that runs) so that kind of test unfortunately won't help us at all

1) Because for tank healing it will probably be more HPS than PI and with inner will you will get enough mana back from rapture to sustain the extra mana drain. The situation was the same on live when firelands started

2) Classic mistake number2. If I sit on it I lose procs, because it only stacks to 2. Since I always use spells that proc it with strat 2, if I dont use the procs faster than I generate it I lose value dramatically.

3) Classic mistake number3. Absolutely not. Lets say the tank has deficit X. If casting a heal twice will top him to full whether you have IF or not then all ur extra spellpower is wasted but that does not mean you dont have to spam. If 5% SP can help you reduce the number of casts you need more than 1-2%, you will have serious trouble healing it and a high chance of failure.

4) IW reduces cost of instants by 15%. That means you save 1/6th of a cast every time. At level 87 over a 2-3minute fight you are looking at 10-20k extra mana.

5) Already answered. Because you get better return on rapture and extra BT procs. That is a lot more mana then 2.5% haste and 2.5% reduced spellcosts, contingent on using PI on CD (which is highly unlikely since you will end up wasting it). If you are aoe healing PI will be better, if you are tank healing DI will be better. ToF might be competitive in both senarios, depending on the fight specifics.

6) I was talking about live. Still archangel is likely to be strong if you are mostly spamming poh/pws and you need throughput.

7) Did you try at lvl 85 with holy? And how long was each fight? At 85 with a holy spec I had no problem in a 4minute sha of doubt fight, my mana was just not going down. Keeping renews on ppl permanently with heal/FDCL flash and HW:serenity, means I almost never cast anything with a big mana cost and when the time comes to hit a GH or PoH its usually 20% cheaper. Shadowfiend brings my bar back to full. At lvl 87 however its less easy because of the spellcost inflation. FDCL is an absolute no brainer for holy in 5mans, but its not at all the same for disc.

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PS for the sake of completeness, sfiend can squeeze 10 GCDs in 15s (11 attacks). The haste break points are 11.11%, 25%, 42.86%. According to my char tooltip I have I have 9.42% haste, 25.83% with borrowed time, 31.30% with PI, 51% with PI and BT. Yes, PI helps hit that 3rd breakpoint, but its not so easy to chain it with fiend, unless you are happy to waste the haste part of it and just use it for regen. (I know the values are surprising that is what the tooltip says though seems like haste stacks multiplicatively i.e. 9.42% and 15% --> 1.0942*1.15 = 1.258675).

I will check to see if this is a tooltip error later

I didn't see anyone respond to this so I will. This is most likely a bug. Void Tendrils should be on a 30-second cooldown.