[Priests 5.0.4] I Get Misty - Page 2

Szeretlek · 09/03/12, 11:20 AM

spreadsheet was much more powerful =( Custom spell usage/rotation was such a great tool.
With little improvment (I added overheal % at each spell which I took from WoL data) that tool can give you REAL stat weight for real fights.

I hope some of that will be in a new tool.

♦ arison · 09/03/12, 12:44 PM

The intention is to support everything the old spreadsheet did, and more. It is, of course, a work in progress, and patches are welcome

That said, even what you describe is still very much an approximation -- there isn't such a thing as "real" stat weights for priests (and healers in general). This is somewhat subjective, of course, but weights just tell us what the optimal tradeoffs are at a certain gear level for certain spells, not a perfect measurement of a specific full encounter. Even taking the overheal from a specific fight doesn't tell you that much because the next time you do the fight, things may be completely different (say you have different healers with you, or a mistake is made that you have to cover for, etc).

But yes, I do plan on having the same functionality. Probably something where you define a real priority system and actual spell cooldown and haste effects are taken into account rather than an "X casts per minute" mode the old spreadsheet had.

If someone wants to continue working on the spreadsheet, that's totally cool; I just think overall the results will be better with this approach in terms of accuracy, maintainability, and usability.

Omanko · 09/04/12, 6:34 AM

As before, there's not much of a "rotation" but the usual priorities:

DPx3 > MB > SW: D (sub 20%) > SF/MBen > FDCL > SW:P > VT > MF

Not everyone has FDCL of course, though personally I find it one of the most fun things about the new system. It really adds additional depth and skill to a previously quite repetitive routine. Also note that you MF a lot less than before, and most likely clip it frequently.

So far the most challenging thing for me has been placing FDCL procs properly. There is a lot of things to consider like imminent buff-procs, when MB comes off CD, chance of wasted stacks etc. It gets especially hectic in a multi-dot scenario, but that makes it only more fun!

For now I'm running with ToF over DI, but I'm not sure how good that is. That would be even more procs then!

Thalimet · 09/04/12, 7:50 AM

I've generally followed that priority (where applicable), the one though that surprises me is VT > MF, I've only used VT over MF when I'm low on mana, since it does so much less damage. Is there something I'm missing with that?

Omanko · 09/04/12, 2:15 PM

You're missing the fact that you don't need to keep casting VT for it to do damage. Its DPCT is much higher than MF, even if its DPS might be lower. Also, VT procs FDCL and we all know how supercool that is >_>

serrif · 09/04/12, 2:41 PM

Keep in mind that if neither MB nor SWD is about to come off cooldown, then DP is lower priority (other than MF) until you can cast MB or SWD on the next GCD after the DP.

Izichial · 09/05/12, 7:22 PM

It's probably worth pointing out that Spirit Shell is (currently) not affected by Archangel.

Balkoth · 09/09/12, 11:59 AM

To expand on what Serrif said...

Originally Posted by Omanko

MB > SW: D (sub 20%) > SF/MBen > FDCL > SW:P > VT > DPx3 > MF

This is more accurate. DPx3 should replace Mind Flay casting time, since once you have the orbs you don't actually *need* to unload them until the next MB/SW:D is coming up. In fact, if you delay SF/MBen/SW:P/VT for a DPx3, you'll actually lose overall DPS (unless you've put yourself in a situation where MB/SW:D will be ready in a second so you only have time to cast one spell...which would have to be DPx3 in that case).

Omanko · 09/09/12, 12:47 PM

As I posted here, any such priority-list needs to be read with the theory behind it in mind. You are of course correct in what you say; we only differ in the representation of the facts. Whichever way you choose, there is a potential to read it incorrectly if you don't know the details.

keikun332 · 09/11/12, 5:39 PM

Talent Choices For a Disc Priest

From Darkness, Comes Light:

The interesting thing I take from this talent is that not only does it save you mana by making a flash heal free, but it also give you an emergency button that you can hold on to for 15 seconds. In terms of raw mana conservation, the only way I can see placing an "Mp5" amount on it is to determine how often the talent will proc dependent on your play style.

Smite: 1.5 Sec Cast, 15% chance, 40 casts = 6 procs = 1 minute = 30,000 Mana Saved = 2000 Mp5
Heal/G.Heal: 2.5 Sec Cast, 15% chance, 24 casts = 3.6 procs = 1 minute = 1500 Mp5

So obviously, an atonement healer will benefit greatly from this talent, as you will see the contemporary atonement priest smite spam at least 75% of the time.

Now, something to keep in mind: is this is not mana gained via regeneration, but more mana saved by pressing an instant cast, free, emergency heal. What reinforces this style is that fact that you can hold up to 2 charges of this talent, which allows you to hold off on using your flash heal till someone takes a big hit, or when you accumulate a second charge (so you do not waste charges)

MindBender:

In order to fully calculate the mana gained by taking this talent, one must compare this talent to the built in ability shadow fiend.

Both hit about 12 times

The Mindbender will give 1.3% mana back per strike, and usually about 1 - 2 hits will miss, so lets use 10 hits total, making mindbender give 13% mana back per minute, which is 1083 MP5

The Shadowfiend gives 3% back, resulting in 30% mana back per 3 minutes, which is 10% mana back per minute, which is 833 Mp5

So in essence, taking this talent will give you 250 Mp5

On the positive side, lets say a fight last an amount of time where you can fit in 1 fiend/5 benders, 2 fiends/8 benders etc: then you will have an increase in potential MP5. So this can be taken into consideration if you are consistent on the usage of said abilities.

So in terms of equality: Mindbender works out to be just about equal to FDCL (~1500 Mp5) , but does not give the utility that FDCL provides.

Power Word: Solace

So in order for PW:So to be viable as a regeneration talent, it will have to give 1500 Mp5 in a semi comfortable fashion. That is, without sacrificing much of your healing potential because this is the only button that stops your healing for increased mana regeneration. Every cast will restore 700 mana. at about 3.33 casts per 5 seconds which comes out to 2331 Mp5. Much more Mp5 than any of the above mentioned abilities.

But this is only when the spell is utilized, so how can we keep the Mp5 up? Over the course of 1 minute, Mindbender will give 13000 mana. To equal this amount, we will have to cast PW:So 19 times per minute, which will occupy 28.5 seconds per minute. Almost a 50% up time...

So generally speaking, the Maximum Mp5 will not equal it's average Mp5. With about a 25% up time (that is, about once every 4 seconds) you will have an Mp5 output of about 1200. This also comes with a reduced healing output.

So in general, I feel that the choice is not quite totally cut and dry, with PW:So being at the bottom due to having to reduce overall healing output for a regeneration that may come in some fights and may not in others. (As disc, I just start tossing out PoH to keep bubbles refreshed and growing)

Now here is another thing to note for FDCL: If you find yourself not casting GH very often, then the odds of getting your proc obviously goes down. But unless that amount of Mp5 you wind up with is greater than 250, FDCL still comes out on top in terms of total healed while using less amounts of mana over the fight duration, which in a sense, is a period of time that you will gain more mana because you spent no mana doing a heal that you will have to eventually do or risk that player dying. This is also important to note when dealing with PW:So, as the amount of time you do not spend actively healing/shielding means that the full amount of DTPS will be applied to your healing load, which you will then have to expend Flash heals if you let too many players drop below 50%. Remember: You need to cast PW:So at least once every 4 seconds in order to be competitive. Thats about 2 spells between each PW:So. So in instances where you cannot simply cast 2 spells then a PW:So, you will have to remind yourself that you "Lost" Mp5 because you had to cast more than 2 heals between each PW:So.

Moments of Lulls can and will make up for this, but you also lose a valuable asset in keeping Divine Aegis up as a Disc Priest. If you are a holy priest, Then I guess you could go ham hocks and spam to your hearts content.

And I would like to say right now, that in the end, Disc Priests will gain Stam as a stat for throughput. Why?

Shell Shield.

Due to the cap of Shell Shield being directly linked to the amount of HP you have, and gemming for Spirit shares the same color as Stamina, swapping the two stats will be easy when it comes time to increase your throughput.

Now the important note: A GH will easily surpass the SS cap if you did not gem stamina. Lets concider that the tank somehow takes more DPS than one Shelled GH. Increasing your Int will do nothing, as the bubble cannot be any bigger. More Spirit will only give you regeneration, and I'm assuming at this point: you are comfortable with the amount of regeneration you have (since you are thinking of ways to increase your throughput)

So, in essence, by making your bubble bigger, you increase your overall absorbs. An option available to you when changing out spirit gems.

I can see GH spam in tank and spank encounters with SS up basically making the tank invincible for 15 seconds every minute. And if the shields from the GH is large enough, a few PoHs later and the group shares a similar amount of invulnerability.

serrif · 09/11/12, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by keikun332

The Mindbender will give 1.3% mana back per strike, and usually about 1 - 2 hits will miss, so lets use 10 hits total, making mindbender give 13% mana back per minute, which is 1083 MP5

The Shadowfiend gives 3% back, resulting in 30% mana back per 3 minutes, which is 10% mana back per minute, which is 833 Mp5

So in essence, taking this talent will give you 250 Mp5

Not quite. Shadowfiend only stays up for 12 seconds instead of 15, which costs it 2 swings, lowering the estimated mp5 of shadowfiend to 667 mp5, or a difference of 417 mp5.

Originally Posted by keikun332

Power Word: Solace

So in order for PW:So to be viable as a regeneration talent, it will have to give 1500 Mp5 in a semi comfortable fashion. That is, without sacrificing much of your healing potential because this is the only button that stops your healing for increased mana regeneration. Every cast will restore 700 mana. at about 3.33 casts per 5 seconds which comes out to 2331 Mp5. Much more Mp5 than any of the above mentioned abilities.

You need to compare Solace + fiend to Mindbender. Since you need to make up a 417 mp5 deficit, and you get 700 mana per cast, you need to cast a solace every 5 * 700 / 417 = 8.4 seconds for them to be equivalent assuming optimal mindbender and fiend usage and steady state. If you account for the additional GCDs that Mindbender uses over shadowfiend, Solace uses 1 GCD every 9.3 seconds to break even. If you can spare more, then solace is more regen. If you can't, then mindbender is better.

Originally Posted by keikun332

Now the important note: A GH will easily surpass the SS cap if you did not gem stamina. Lets concider that the tank somehow takes more DPS than one Shelled GH. Increasing your Int will do nothing, as the bubble cannot be any bigger. More Spirit will only give you regeneration, and I'm assuming at this point: you are comfortable with the amount of regeneration you have (since you are thinking of ways to increase your throughput)

How are you seeing this? At 150k hp which is where you should be at, a spirit shell max bubble is 90k. Since spirit shell heals average in crit instead of having a crit chance, 1 greater heal can't reach that threshold at heroic DS gear levels. 2 gheals might, though. Realistically, your highest HPS use of spirit shell is PoH by a long shot.

Szeretlek · 09/12/12, 1:41 AM

So, in essence, by making your bubble bigger, you increase your overall absorbs. An option available to you when changing out spirit gems.

Only in crazy world I will gem stamina as Disc instead of Mastery, Spirit or Int.

About FDCL.
I dont cast GH or FH often in that expansion. And with Penance Glyph and Holy Fire Glyph I throw away Smite from my bar. You just smash PoH button so many times, that needed to get your raid healed. And that is right way to do it.
If you find yourselve to benefiting from FDCL - try cast more PoH`s. It will be hps increase anyway.

About Solace.
I have lul moments only in progression raids, where mana is tight and you need play in conserve mode.
So if you are find yourselves benefiting from Solace - try cast more PoH`s!

About Mindbender.
It is great tool to keep mana flowing all the time. I cast 1st MB after 15'' and just keep it on cooldown. It is simply more convinient SF, which is ready when you need it.
If you find yourselves not benefiting from MB - try cast for 5 min in non-stop mode PoH`s and you will get how cool it is. You wont have lul phases for Solace and you will cast high hps and high hpm PoH instead of low hps and low hpm GH/FH so FDCL doesnt proc.

I wish I can show you WoL records, but they all in Russian.

Havoc12 · 09/13/12, 11:45 AM

Spirit Shell ignores a lot of buffs: It ignores all temporary crit buffs and all effects which say increases your healing done by x%, except for grace. So ToF and archangel for example which increase healing do not affect PWS and spirit shell. That makes ToF a terrible talent for disc.

ToF procs from pain, so if you cast pain on a 15% health mob you get 15% increase in healing for 30s. ToF is strong (for holy) for those fights where you are constantly zerging adds down. A great example is tsulong. You can keep the buff up constantly during the day phase and you get 15% more HPS on tsulong. It also stacks with the 500% healing bonus from the breath. On the downside it is tricky to pull off. I personally don't like ToF as it is now, because it does not benefit your procing cast. So if you hit a group with low health they dont get any benefit from ToF and usually damage is healed quickly so your second cast overheals more, which kinda eliminates the bonus of ToF. In fights like spine where you have adds at <15% health for long periods of time though ToF is a semi-permanent 15% buff so its good, but still its really annoying to have to keep refreshing pain on an add.

The formula for fiend and mindbender is number of attacks = (1+duration/15). It is currently not modified by haste.

Mindbender attacks 11 times while shadowfiend attacks 9 times.

Contrary to what people think solace is best for those fights where you have heavy damage all the time and mindbender is best for those fights who have lots of downtime. There are several reasons for that:

Casting as much solace as you can and then lowering spirit for throughput stats is much much worse than maxing spirit and casting the minimum number of solaces required to get you to the end of the fight (though some people will disagree with me on this it can be demonstrated mathematically that this is the case).

Basically lots of ppl think that what you need to do is spam solace during the downtime and then have lots of mana available during the big spikes. However if the fight has a lot of down time than mana drain is low and with just mindbender you will have enough mana to both cast a few high HPM heals during the down time and all the mana you want to spam high throughput combos during the spikes. So with solace you are just wasting healing time getting mana you don't need during the downtime. You cant lower your spirit and get more throughput so that you can get more oomph during the spikes, because solace+throughput is much worse than spirit and less solace. With mindbender you can heal more than with solace during the down time and heal about the same during the burst.

However when there is tons of damage flying around, you will end up oom and because with solace you can cast solace when you are oom but with mindbender you have no choice but to sit around and wait for the CD to finish, solace ends up winning.

So it is the opposite of what you might expect:

Lots and lots of heavy damage --> take solace and spam it during the lowest points in the incoming damage. You will spend less time oom and more time healing than you would with bender

Very spikey fight with lots of down time --> get mindbender and heal conservatively during the downtime, you will still have as much mana as you need to heal hard during the spikes, but you will also get a good chunk of the healing during the downtime.

1 spirit is worth 0.6mp6 roughly without rapture.
425 haste rating is worth 1% haste

Thus if you trade 1000 spirit for 1000 haste rating you will end up with -600mp5 but 2.353% more haste. That is obviously no where near enough gain in casting time to allow you to get an extra 600mp5 from the extra solace. In effect you would just lose about 600mp5 and if mana is limiting you would just cast less spells and heal less overall.

In gems items and enchants intellect has twice the stat budget of spirit, so you have to trade 2 spirit for 1 int.

500 intellect is about 2% increase in healing as well I think. That means in order to break even you would need for that 600mp5 loss to reduce your overall number of casts by 1.9%. In a 6 minute fight 600mp5 is equal to 14.4% of your max mana. You would need that to be 1.9% of the total mana you have available i.e. you need to have 7.58 times your max mana available to you in a 6 minute fight. With a 300k starting pool that is equivalent to an overall mana regeneration of 27.4k mp5. Incidentally the mana drain of PoH is 30kmp5. If you had 27.4k mp5 then you would be able to spam PoH for about 10 minutes straight in combat. In MoP right now with 10k spirit in scaled gear I am looking at maximum 12k mp5 in combat.

In other words the only way to trade spirit for intellect is through buff food and flask/elixir. When gemming/enchanting/gearing you have to go for max spirit. , so the only way that you can trade spirit for intellect anyway is through food and flask/elixirs where int and spirit are 1:1. Even with the 1:1trade spirit is better until you get to roughly 13k spirit.

Ninahagen · 09/13/12, 1:17 PM

Most people think Solace shines better in irregulars fight because it is obvious, or it seems obvious.

You are mixing "regular / irregular damage" with "sustainable / unsustainable damage (mana-wise)".

You may have
1°) Regular and sustainable damage. In that case, you are constantly healing because your mana-regeneration is enough, and you don't have time to cast Solace. Solace is bad.
2°) Regular unsustainable damage. In that case, you have to manage mana, and you are not constantly casting. In that case, you have time for Solace, and Solace being good or not depends on how much Solaces you can cast while still keeping an optimized (and not dumb) gameplay (an optimized gameplay).
3°) Irregular sustainable damage. There are period of time where there's nothing to heal, or almost nothing to heal. During this time, you may cast Solace.
4°) Irregular unsustainable. There are period of time where there's nothing to heal, but you are not even able to sustain the time where there is heal to do. You have even more time during which you could spam Solace.

You are comparing Regular unsustainable and Irregular sustainable.

And I'm not convinced Mind Bender is always better for 3°), at least not theorically, nor that Solace is always better for 2°). It always depends on how much time you have available for casting Solace.

I share the point of view of those many ppl that tend to think Solace shines better in irregular fights, and that's because without thinking much, I can imagine the following example:

- I don't know how effective is spirit. I assume 1 spirit gives MP5_1SPIRIT, and it may be weak or strong, I don't care.
- I don't know how effective is solace. I assume one cast takes 1 GCD, and returns MANA_1SOLACE. It may be weak or strong, I don't care.

I imagine one fight with a giant ogre and his big stick.
He smacks my tank at the beginning of the fight, for heavy damages, then he's staring at the raid with fish eyes and does nothing during 1 GCD x MANA_MAX / MANA_1SOLACE (so if I spam Solace during all that time, I get back 100% of my mana).
After waiting that much, he smacks my tank again.
Each time he's done smacking my tank (beginning of the fight, and a bit later), I have to instantly spend 100% of my mana on one big healing nuke. The healing spell costs 100% of my mana, and is instant, and I don't really care how much heal it does.

In this example, it is clear to me that, since there's no damage to heal between 2 big stick smacking, spending my time with Solace seems kinda good (no drawback?), and will return 100% of my mana, whatever weak or strong each Solace is. And as follows, the mana I get from spirit is completely useless, no matter how strong spirit is.

So, better come with 0 (zero) spirit, and boost the damages of Solace and the healing of my big heal, with spellpower and critical strike.

I'd say that's an example I get from my weak mind, that explains to me quite quickly that irregular fights tend to favor Solace. It's not said that Solace is better in real fights, but it's a trend.

Havoc12 · 09/13/12, 7:26 PM

Having done all fights in the current tier, I have found no fight at all with extended periods of no damage. There is always healing to be done. Some fights are more bursty and the damage is not equaly spread out and in some fight there is constant damage which keeps ramping up and up as the encounter proceeds.

Thus there are effectively no irregular fights as such. There is always something to heal. As disc also there is never any downtime at all, since you need to stack aegis for the spikes.

In general terms and depending on your mana regen mindbender perfoms better in the spikey fights because the spell selection there allows you to cast continuously with just mindbender. The fights where there is constant ramping damage are those fights where you spend time being oom. These fights generally favour solace but some of them have a mana regen mechanic already (e.g. tsulong).

In fights with downtime, some of it is always best used with potions of concenation

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Lei shi and the sha of fear on LFR are heavy tank healing fights, which favour FDCL. Spamming PoH in these fights produced weak results for me. The other great fight for FDCL is gajarat the spirit binder.

Links to WoL records are great even if its in russian.