Very interresting !
i understand now, why some gcd are lost.
Nevertheless, Shadowcrawl is instant but use 1 gcd. that means that attack is delayed of 2 gcd from the previous one. So, it is not 1.5sec normally. don't you think ?
edit : hum... automatic melee attacks is not folowed the gcd, i think...
Just 2 confirmations :
- With Haste at 60%, attacks is every 0.9375seconds means that 17 attacks are possible in 15 sec because of instant attack as soon as the pet is casted.
If we have only 16 times of mana return that means that the last one is lost because the pet has disapeared before the proc of mana return ?
if yes, the haste breakdown must be estimated with the delay existing between the attack and the tic of mana return.
- To optimize the number of tic, it is necessary to remove shadowcrawl attacks.
i have not tested yet but do you think it is possible to disable this attack when we cast the pet ?
it is perhaps possible to remove it by a macro done with the cast of the pet (but maybe necessary to activate the macro 2 times)
edit : maybe, it is necessary to post a bug report if it is not possible to cancel the shadowcrawl ?
Last edited by Polopretress : 09/23/12 at 6:49 PM.
I can't reproduce the "shadowcrawl slows down the swing timer" phenomenon. I am seeing that there is a delay between the swing and the mana gain, and I don't seem to get the mana from the last swing, either (consistently at my gear level, need to try to see if there are breakpoints for this).
Most runs were done with a 1.23 sec gcd (the ones where I had darkness are indistinguishable from the ones where I didn't), except for the second to last run, which also had heroism cast partway, and the last run, where I had no gear on. I'll do more experimenting when I get a chance. Either Blizzard is messing with us, or there's something going on that we're missing, I think.
Edit: I ran a bunch of different haste levels through. Basically at every level except 904 haste rating, I received 1 more melee swing than mana returns. I'm not entirely sure why.
I take back the 3 examples i have linked and made calculation of time betwwen swing, mana regen.
I do not notice also any influence of shadowcrawl.
Roughly, i find :
Time between swing attacks ~ gcd
Time between mana regen instable (can be from 1.1sec to 1.6 sec , not in relation with the cast of shadowcrawl)
Time between swing attacks and Mana regen from 0.8sec to 1.2sec
Time of the last tic of mana regen can be more than 15sec. after the cast of pet (i see 15.36 sec) but never above.
If the last swing attack is more than 14.6 sec, I lost tic of mana regen.
So, it seems to be impossible to do exact estimation of the number of tic with a given level of haste....
Not everyone has FDCL of course, though personally I find it one of the most fun things about the new system. It really adds additional depth and skill to a previously quite repetitive routine. Also note that you MF a lot less than before, and most likely clip it frequently.
So far the most challenging thing for me has been placing FDCL procs properly. There is a lot of things to consider like imminent buff-procs, when MB comes off CD, chance of wasted stacks etc. It gets especially hectic in a multi-dot scenario, but that makes it only more fun! For now I'm running with ToF over DI, but I'm not sure how good that is. That would be even more procs then!
Been wondering, with how good shadow orbs now, is the SW glyph possibly worthwhile (SW over 20% health, but do 1 quarter damage and eat some backlash... basically shit damage but orb generation.)
My gut instinct says no, leave that for pvp or other fringe situations where you want to generate orbs as fast as possible for a burst scenario, but that it's not good
I'm also really liking FDCL, especially while leveling - it makes me a lot less annoyed about the very common scenario where you're dotting up 2-3 targets at once, but mind sear kinda sucking for aoe.
I idly wonder though, if taking mindbender for DPS might be better or similar dps with a less complex rotation on a single target? And didn't they buff SW:Insanity? That one looks cool too...
You should probably read the glyph again. Glyphed SW: Death does *not* generate *any* Orbs. It would definitely be in our rotation otherwise, but that way, it's not. The glyph is pretty much useless for PvE.
So far FDCL has been consistently simming as the highest DPS talent. As for how wide the margins are, that is up for debate. More data will be forthcoming as proper, live raiding goes underway.
I posted this on the blizzard forum. It is possible that it was fixed. I replicated many times when I tried it, so I know it was correct. You should all be using a haste tirnket to get your haste to a very high level and see how many attacks you get. Try to hit the same value as I did.
It is possible that one attack is lost now due to lag if the delay between the swing and the mana leech after the last attack is too long. The leech is applied on the shadowfiend, so if the shadowfiend expires before the leech is applied, I think it is highly likely that the script will fail to run.
Before this we were not missing one attack. We were missing up to 4 attacks, if you see my original example and I repeatedly got more attacks when I removed shadowcrawl.
i havent noticed any mentioned on it here and havent found much on it but a priest in my raid group has been running into problems with his guardian spirit both now in mv and dating back to ds. Its seems like the "cheat death" part of guardian spirit is not working. And i have checked it out in the combat log when he has cast uardian spirit on me (im tanking) and i get the cast on me and get the killing blow on me where the guardian should kick in and not kill me and heal me but that part doesnt seem to work. Anyone else here been running into some problems with guardian spirit ?
There are two cases I've seen where guardian spirit fails to save someone. Firstly, the race condition, when I cast it *just* before the killing blow, it goes on cooldown, but the target dies anyway (Solution: cast earlier). Secondly, when the killing blow is too large (since patch 4.0.6, Guardian Spirit has had a cap on the amount of damage it will absorb (of 200% of the target's max health), so a single hit bigger than that will still kill a target with GS on them). If you're trying to use Guardian Spirit to ignore some fight mechanics, you may have to layer on other cooldowns to reduce the big hit (or just change your strategy).
But my feeling all along has been the former o your suggestions that the cast is just a little too late and possible the servers read the cast sequence in just a little bit different order then they are cast in, so eventhough the gs is cast before the real kiling blow then the killing blow maybe is read before the gs on the one taking the hit and therefor it might not get properly activated.
So the solution is most likely just to get the cast in earlier, as rarely if ever i or the other tank is taking a hit in excess of 200% of max health.
Again thank you and i will forward this to my, quite frustrated by the failure of his gs, priest healer.
I'm wondering what talentchoices other people maken on the different fights. Espacially the level 90 talents. I am referring to people that play holy.
In the first tier I don't believe their is much use of these talents except for Void tendrils during Elegon.
In the second tier however their is the choice of using Body and Soul and Angelic feather. I myself am more fond of Body and Soul. I don't need to put down feathers and have people walk through them. With B&S I can just instantly give someone a boost. It does however requires mana to give people that boost.
The third tier starts getting interesting. FDCL has been a favorite of mine during cataclysm, but it has little use on big AoE fights, since it doesn't proc on our AoE abilities. Mindbender is my more preferred talentchoice, since it has only a 1 min CD. The 0,7% of Solace really isn't worth it in my opinion. That's only 2100 mana. It can be argued that you also regain mana since you are not casting. But I can also simply not cast. I will still regain that mana regardless.
In the fourth tier I'm still torn between Desperate Prayer and Angelic Bulwark. Allthough AB requires no effort on my part, it can proc on moments you really don't need the shield. A shield however mitgates the damage and is instantly up. With desperate prayer you only regain health and you will still need to press the heal. With DP I have the luxury of using it whenever I want. I'm leaning towards AB at the moment for all the fights.
In the fifth tier I have found twist of fate being a great addition during Garajal, Kings and Elegon, since there are several moments where you can proc that talent due to several bosses or adds during that fight. On Stoneguard and Feng I lean more towards Power Infusion. PI gives the boost that is handy on the moments it is needed.
The final tier is the tier I switch around most, which I'm sure most of the raiders do.
On Stoneguard I prefer Halo, since most people are spread anyways over about the range halo is most effective.
On Feng I usually go with Divine star. Ranged and melee should be away from eachother about the range of DS. It has a short CD and can help out during the entire fight when there are low damage phases.
On Gara'jal I tend to use DS also. Everyone is always stacked up. I have not tested using halo on this fight. Arguably if you just get yourself in the perfect position you should get enourmous heals, but I prefer to stand still most of the fight.
On spirit kings I find DS nice to have during the Maddening shout. During the way forward it damages and on its way back it heals. Halo however has some decent use as well because of the way the fight works. The spread fases are most of the time the more damaging fases. The fight is also a very mobile fight so during stack fases it's not hard to get some distance between you and your raid for perfect halo usage.
On Elegon I find Cascade to be most effective because you can reach out of range players on the other side of the platform. I don't see DS having any kind of use. Halo just can't keep up with cascade.
I just switched to Holy with the start of MoP raiding, was practically Disc since Ulduar, and I'm quite liking it.
As you mentioned the first tier isn't all that important, I mostly have Tendrils for some occasional uses like Emperors Rage and the likes.
I also favor Body and Soul, probably because I always loved that aspect the most when healing some encounters as Holy, but there might be some uses where a tank is kiting on a preplanned route, so I see Angelic Feathers still having some usefulness.
On tier three I nearly always have Mindbender, because of two facts. It is a significant dps increase when used on cooldown (or close to anyways) and the mana income is smoother than with a normal shadowfiend but still feels less maintenancey than PW:Solace.
AB is my clear winner, mainly because I'm bad in those regards and forget to use healthstones and DP all the time but you are quite right that AB sometimes proccs when its not needed, some non lethal aoe which takes the raid low but wont kill it if done correctly and where you have "ages" to bring the raid back up...
Regarding tier 6 I should probably try to vary a bit more, seeing as you can procc ToF with some adds or on those non lethal aoes quite easily and PI yields very good on demand burst for something like Elegon HC final phase (even though it worked without). But I love DI as holy so much because the ProM can be used as a follow up after some large AoE and doesn't need constant ticking damage or anything to trigger and may even be used as a decent single target heal on a tank if there's a melee (or pet) nearby from whom it can bounce back and forth.
Lvl 90 Talents:
Stone Guards (HC): Cascade is my favorite here, especially when people are running around reactivating tiles.
Feng (HC): As you mentioned DS because we are grouped up nearly the whole fight or at least when the incoming dmg is high.
Gara: I wasn't in for our progress, haven't killed him so far.
Kings: For our few heroic attempts I found DS quite nice for Qiang but I guess Halo or Cascade should be better overall since after Qiang you'll be mostly spread out.
Elegon (HC): Cascade is a godsend on this encounter, especially for the second phase, picks up very many people on both sides every 2nd charge phase for very little mana, not quite as effective for the final phase but that does not last really long anyways.
Will: Cascade and Halo should both proof very good here depending on raid composition and tactic.
Zor'lok: I found Cascade really useful for the Force and Verve phases, DS hits too few targets and Halo may not hit everyone.
Mel'jarak: Nearly killed him yesterday and I think Cascade again was the most useful for Raining Blades. Extra care is needed if you pick Halo/DS to not accidentally break a CC.
Overall I feel that Cascade for spread out and DS for grouped up scenarios are the most useful, since Cascade has the advantage over Halo in regards to finding its targets and not needing very careful positioning/timing to be effective.
There are only 10 types of people... those who understand binary and those who don't.
First tier has no real use in raiding. I have void tendrils, but only use them when doing daily quests. (Before void shift was fixed to only work on players, they made great VS targets, but that doesn't work any more)
Second tier, I usually use feathers. They take some getting used to, but as holy I don't use shields, so even though it's easier to cast a shield on someone than to place a feather for them, it would cost mana that I usually don't have to spare. Feathers are free. Also, I can use 4 in a row (and then 1 per 10s), while B&S is 1 per 15s. The only fight I change this for is stone guards - because of the constant snare, phantasm works better for getting myself in to my chain buddy.
My choice for tier 3 depends on my healing role. If I'm assigned to tanks, I'll take FDCL; if not, mindbender (I've tried solace, but I'm not a fan).
I always use desperate prayer from tier 4. Angelic bulwark doesn't require a keypress, but also doesn't save you from being 1shot from 40%.
Tier 5, I usually take Twist of Fate. In addition to procs from healing people who are low on health, I try to keep my target set to whatever mob will be the next to die, and if I have 7800 mana and a GCD to spare when my power word: death button lights up, pushing it will boost my healing for 10s as well as helping dps. Divine Insight is also good, and I'll have to give it another try some time, but last time I used it I found it too easy to burn my mana too fast. Even though PoM is one of our most efficient heals, it's still not cheap on mana - when things get hectic and I'm spamming PoH as fast as I can, the extra healing from ToF is free, while divine insight means I run oom faster. When I go disc, I switch to Power Infusion (because ToF doesn't affect absorbs, but PI + spirit shell is a combo made in heaven).
Because I raid 25man, cascade is my go-to choice for the 6th tier. It works when the raid is spread out, or when we have a melee group and a ranged group; it lines up nicely with most boss abilities; and it doesn't do any damage (the number of times someone's halo wiped us on spirit kings...). The only time I change it is when our strategy calls for the whole raid to be stacked up together, as this is when cascade is weakest. Then, if I can run out (using either body & soul or feathers) and halo, I do that; otherwise I use the star.