Disc Priest - Mists of Pandaria - Page 12

Szeretlek · 01/18/13, 2:36 AM

deleted, see below

Perkeyone · 01/18/13, 2:38 AM

4.0
Atonement introduced, smite only
PoH gets DA double dip on crits
(PW:S - mastery)
(All other spells - haste)

4.1
Holy fire added to atonement
Holy fire damage buffed

4.2
All healing crits buffed to 200% healing up from 150%
(PW:S - mastery)
(Atonement - haste)
(All other spells - crit)

4.3
Atonement now accounts for hitbox

5.0
Spirit shell introduced
Double dip DA for PoH silently removed
All damage crits buffed to 200%
Penance added to atonement
DA buffed from 30% to 50%
(PW:S and SS - mastery)
(PoH - haste)
(All other spells - crit)

5.1
Atonement range buffed

5.2
Spirit shell formula changed
Guaranteed DA removed from PoH.
Penance damage and healing buffed
(PW:S - mastery)
(All other spells - crit)

I'm quite content with the changes, I really didn't like having each stat being the best stat at certain times and then the worst stat at other times. These changes will do a lot to clean that up, putting almost everything in one box so to speak. One observation if I may... since its introduction over 2 years ago, atonement has not really seen any nerfs and has steadily been buffed both directly (via range improvements and the inclusion of new spells) and indirectly (through things like healer crits being buffed.)

Szeretlek · 01/18/13, 3:02 AM

Lets talk about Live and PTR Rapture.
Lets assume that on live you have 10k spirit, 1 spirit proc for net 1200 Spirit average and 1 mana tide with ~800 spirit average.
Spirit live: 10 000 + 2000
Spirit ptr: 10 000 + 2000 (which doesnt work for Rapture, but work as natural MP5 anyway)
PWS manacost live: 18300
PWS manacost ptr: 13725
Rapture regen live: 200% spirit
Rapture regen ptr: 150% spirit

This is clearly a nerf.
RaptureLive=2*(Spirit+2000)-18300 = 5700 (for 10k spirit)
RapturePTR=1.5*(Spirit)-13725 = 1275 (for 10k spirit)

Red line - live, black line - PTR
Y - managain, X - spirit

For 10k spirit situation, we lose 5700 - 1275 = 4425 mana every 15sec (good Rapture timing).
This is 4425 / 3 = 1475 mp5.

Net MP5 Live:
With 12k spirit average you have 6772 mp5 naturally, 6000 base mp5, 4015mp5 from MB, 1900mp5 from Rapture
18687 mp5 total. (6000+4015)/18687 = 54% of your mana regen NOT Spirit based.

Net MP5 PTR:
With 12k spirit average you have 6772 mp5 naturally, 6000 base mp5, 2250 mp5 from SF, 425mp5 from Rapture, and 4200mp5 from Solace
19647 mp5 total. (6000+2250+4200)/19647 = 63% of your mana regen NOT Spirit based

Your total MP5 on PTR will raise, and Spirit devalued more with Rapture nerf and Solace reworked. 2/3 of our regen doesnt account spirit at all.

P.S. I dont account Hymn of Hope, because it hardly predict how much it will really regen. Anyway, this is minor static value, and it wont change on PTR.

Szeretlek · 01/18/13, 3:35 AM

From my previous post I think in 5.2 in its current form, Priest should take Solace (obviously), have some spirit cloth (around 8-10k is enough I think, because only 1/3rd of your regen comes from spirit) and others are Haste/Crit cloth, w/o mastery (that stat sucks hard in 5.2).
Gemming should be Int based. I think 160Int for Red, 80Int+160Crit in Yellow and 80Int+160Spirit in Blue.
Meta 216Int+3%CritEffect

Your playstyle priorities will be like this:
1) Use SS and spam PoH if Big Boom incoming
2) PoH for devastatingly hard AoE. Your best spell for this, nobrain. Just spam it.
3) Use Solace. MUST be on CD. Its better then Rapture CD.
4) PWS for Rapture, even if it wont be mana positive, it will be extremely mana efficent in any case.
5) Use DPS penance (cheap smart heal for 3 persons, even in hard AoE scenarios, its like CoH for Discs. If you ever use heal Penance you should be sentenced to death.)
6) SF/MB
7) Use PoH for heal groups with 4 injured persons
8) Smart usage of your CDs, such as PoM, lvl90 and such. Maybe PWS blanketing.
9) Smite! (mostly fun action

)

Szeretlek · 01/18/13, 6:07 AM

After some thoughts I made an improved version of 5.2 Disc priorities:

1) 1st-tier CDs: Barrier, PainSuppr, SpShell, AA - use them on demand as your emergency buttons
2) PoH with 5 targets
3) 2nd-tier CDs: Solace, Rapture, Penance, SF - use them all on cooldown. In DPS scenarios, Penance comes 1st, in mana-conserving scenarios, Solace and Rapture come 1st.
4) PoH with 4 targets. AoE filler
5) 3rd-tier CDs: PoM, Hymn of Hope, PWS blanketing, lvl90 talent - these CDs are weaker then 2nd tier CD, but in certain situation they may be strong. Need some brains to use them properly.
6) Smite. Single target filler

Lets made some conclusions about 5.2 atm:
1) Slightly nerf SS (5-10%), right formula now. If you regem your weak mastery to Int or Crit it will be closer to 5% nerf.
2) Slightly buff MP5 (5-10%). It makes us less dependant on Spirit, and gives us more mana then now.
3) Great nerf to PoH. They make your "best-in-any-case" PoH to "best-in-aoe-case" PoH. This is AoE filler, which comes after you push other buttons. I think its not so bad.

If you mind that Disc hps is just ridiculosly OP now, in 5.2 I think we will still dominate hps ranking with proper usage of SS. Nothing to fear, fellows.

Hidden · 01/18/13, 6:27 AM

Originally Posted by Szeretlek

After some thoughts I made an improved version of 5.2 Disc priorities:

1) 1st-tier CDs: Barrier, PainSuppr, SpShell, AA - use them on demand as your emergency buttons
2) PoH with 5 targets
3) 2nd-tier CDs: Solace, Rapture, Penance, SF - use them all on cooldown. In DPS scenarios, Penance comes 1st, in mana-conserving scenarios, Solace and Rapture come 1st.
4) PoH with 4 targets. AoE filler
5) 3rd-tier CDs: PoM, Hymn of Hope, PWS blanketing, lvl90 talent - these CDs are weaker then 2nd tier CD, but in certain situation they may be strong. Need some brains to use them properly.
6) Smite. Single target filler

Penance may be a higher priority than PoH even with 5 targets. Post-patch its HPS and HPM are actually higher than 5 man PoH when Evangelism is up while providing an Evangelism stack itself - being a smart heal with its healing divided over 3 ticks also helps with avoiding overheal.
PoM is also higher HPS and HPM than PoH post-patch while tending to cause less overhealing as well, so you should prioritize it unless it's not likely to get consumed any time soon.
Even PW: Solace should be a higher priority if people are not in immediate danger since it still offers fairly high HPS while actually regenerating mana.

An issue I'm seeing is that 4pT14 is going to become ridiculous with the Penance buff so Blizzard will probably nerf it, pretty much negating the Penance buff for Disc priests until they get their new set bonuses.

Szeretlek · 01/18/13, 6:56 AM

Originally Posted by Hidden

Penance may be a higher priority than PoH even with 5 targets. Post-patch its HPS and HPM are actually higher than 5 man PoH when Evangelism is up while providing an Evangelism stack itself - being a smart heal with its healing divided over 3 ticks also helps with avoiding overheal.
PoM is also higher HPS and HPM than PoH post-patch while tending to cause less overhealing as well, so you should prioritize it unless it's not likely to get consumed any time soon.
Even PW: Solace should be a higher priority if people are not in immediate danger since it still offers fairly high HPS while actually regenerating mana.

I thougth that PoH for 5 targets only used when there is ultimatively strong aoe damage. Examples:
1) Heroic Protectors of Endless. End of 3rd phase
2) Heroic Madness. End of each phase.
3) Heroic Ultraxion. End of fight.
And so on. I think there is no time for mana conserve, you just need spam your most hps spell.

About Penance vs PoH5:
35k sp, 25%crit, 35% mastery, 10% haste:
Penance Damage through attonement =3 * 37295 * (1+1.06*0.25) =3 * 47178 = 141 535
After Evangelism and 5.2 buff:
Damage and healing (w/o DA): 141 535 * 1.2 * 1.2 = 203 810 with 3 smart ticks
Divine Aegis: 3 * 37295 * 1.2 * 1.2 * 0.25 * (1+0.35) = 54376

So in SINGLE cast of Penance at boss you made:
203 810 damage, then (203 810 = 3 * 67937) smart heals within 40 yards around boss, PLUS 54376 DA on raid as bonus after crits.
DPET = 203810 / 2 / 1.1 = 92641 dpet
HPET = (203810+54376) / 2 / 1.1 = 117357 hpet

Yeah, DPSPenance in 5.2 may be worth casting on cooldown in any situation. And never ever cast it as Heal Penance. Even stupid Grace wont pay it off. Because you lose damage part, evangelism buff and smart heal property.

Gloryrider · 01/18/13, 7:08 AM

Originally Posted by Szeretlek

And never ever cast it as Heal Penance.

I believe there is an exception. In a low damage phase where you already used smite/HF(well, solace) to get your evangelism stacks, it might be worth throwing a heal-penance at a tank who is about to take a beating. Don't forget that a heal-penance, although doing less healing than it's damage version, still applies 3 stacks of grace. If you know you're spending the next 3-4 casts healing the tank (whether that being smite or direct Greater/Flash heals or even the stacking of Spirit shell), a 30% increase to those is more raw healing and more useful healing than the difference between the heal and damage->heal from penance (and evangelism was stacked anyway).
Will of the emperor (if assigned to tank healing ofc) and Wind Lord HC come to mind, i'm sure there will be more.

On the note of Spirit Shell, due to the nerf to PoH-DA, I assume an SS-PoH scales the same as SS on single target heals thus making them theoretically equal? (i.e. the use only depends on the situation)
And for those 5-10% nerf numbers on SS, doesn't the combination of both the SS 'scaling fix' and the removal of guaranteed DA on PoH make for a lot bigger nerf than that in the case of SS + PoH-spam to pre-bubble?

Szeretlek · 01/18/13, 7:13 AM

Originally Posted by Gloryrider

I believe there is an exception.
...
Will of the emperor (if assigned to tank healing ofc) and Wind Lord HC come to mind, i'm sure there will be more.

Yeah, maybe. In my conclusions I always come as 10 man progression DiscPriest, where there is no dedicated tank healers, and healers themselves are just bad DPSers with healing capabilities =)

And for those 5-10% nerf numbers on SS, doesn't the combination of both the SS 'scaling fix' and the removal of guaranteed DA on PoH make for a lot bigger nerf than that in the case of SS + PoH-spam to pre-bubble?

Yeap, you right. Forget to mention that. It always overcapped in 10 man anyway atm. It mostly hurt those guys

(link)

Gloryrider · 01/18/13, 7:17 AM

Originally Posted by Szeretlek

Yeah, maybe. In my conclusions I always come as 10 man progression DiscPriest, where there is no dedicated tank healers, and healers themselves are just bad DPSers with healing capabilities =)

As a 10-man raider I dare to agree but only to a certain extent. It doesn't happen as often that there is a tank-healer assigned, but particularly on those 2 encounters we actually do assign those roles, even in 2-heal teams. Sometimes we split up the task and agree that we each heal 1 of the tanks. Although it's not to be taken as strict as in 25-man healing teams, the point stands. And I doubt that bit of damage that your penance wouldve done makes up for a bigger risk on tank deaths

And yes, I see what you mean about SS!

I should get some addon that alerts me when i'm overcapping it, I tend to spam it just to be *absolutely sure* to get everyone the highest possible bubble - but it's often pure overhealing and I'd be better off just single-healing the the tank more when I capped on the raid.

Szeretlek · 01/18/13, 7:26 AM

As a 10-man raider I dare to agree but only to a certain extent. It doesn't happen as often that there is a tank-healer assigned, but particularly on those 2 encounters we actually do assign those roles, even in 2-heal teams. Sometimes we split up the task and agree that we each heal 1 of the tanks. Although it's not to be taken as strict as in 25-man healing teams, the point stands. And I doubt that bit of damage that your penance wouldve done makes up for a bigger risk on tank deaths

There is only 2 moments in 2 fights in current tier when I heal tanks with direct heals. 1) Adds phase at EmpressHM and 2) Adds phase at LeiShi.
Every other fight (even on mighty Sha of Fear with his Dread Trash) healable with Tank self heals + Beacon of Light + Attonement.
Better gear - moar smiting!

Hidden · 01/18/13, 7:30 AM

Originally Posted by Szeretlek

I thougth that PoH for 5 targets only used when there is ultimatively strong aoe damage. Examples:
1) Heroic Protectors of Endless. End of 3rd phase
2) Heroic Madness. End of each phase.
3) Heroic Ultraxion. End of fight.
And so on. I think there is no time for mana conserve, you just need spam your most hps spell.

About Penance vs PoH5:
35k sp, 25%crit, 35% mastery, 10% haste:
Penance Damage through attonement =3 * 37295 * (1+1.06*0.25) =3 * 47178 = 141 535
After Evangelism and 5.2 buff:
Damage and healing (w/o DA): 141 535 * 1.2 * 1.2 = 203 810 with 3 smart ticks
Divine Aegis: 3 * 37295 * 1.2 * 1.2 * 0.25 * (1+0.35) = 54376

So in SINGLE cast of Penance at boss you made:
203 810 damage, then (203 810 = 3 * 67937) smart heals within 40 yards around boss, PLUS 54376 DA on raid as bonus after crits.
DPET = 203810 / 2 / 1.1 = 92641 dpet
HPET = (203810+54376) / 2 / 1.1 = 117357 hpet

Yeah, DPSPenance in 5.2 may be worth casting on cooldown in any situation. And never ever cast it as Heal Penance. Even stupid Grace wont pay it off. Because you lose damage part, evangelism buff and smart heal property.

I think you're missing CoE (+5% magic damage taken) which is unique to Penance (compared to PoH) and your DPET/HPET calculations should read " / ( 2 / 1.1)" or "/ 2 * 1.1" in the end. Your DA calculations are also missing the crit damage meta gem which isn't a big deal but still makes a bit of a difference.
With those things fixed, it should look like this:
Penance Damage: 3 * 37295 * 1.05 * 1.2 * 1.2 * (1+1.06*0.25) = 214 000
DA: 3* 37295 * 1.05 * 1.2 * 1.2 * 0.25 * 1.35 * 2.06 * 0.5 = 58 807
Total Heal: 272 807
Total Heal (AA): 341 008
DPET: 214000 / (2 / 1.1) = 117 700
HPET: 272 807 / (2 / 1.1) = 150 043
HPET (AA): 341 008 / (2 / 1.1) = 187 554
HPM: 272 807 / 6510 = 41.91
HPM (AA): 341 008 / 6510 = 52.38

As you can see, Penance has an insane HPS and HPM post-patch, even when compared to (post-patch) PoH on five targets.

Szeretlek · 01/18/13, 7:36 AM

Originally Posted by Hidden

I think you're missing CoE (+5% magic damage taken) which is unique to Penance (compared to PoH) and your DPET/HPET calculations should read " / ( 2 / 1.1)" or "/ 2 * 1.1" in the end. Your DA calculations are also missing the crit damage meta gem which isn't a big deal but still makes a bit of a difference.
With those things fixed, it should look like this:
Penance Damage: 3 * 37295 * 1.05 * 1.2 * 1.2 * (1+1.06*0.25) = 214 000
DA: 3* 37295 * 1.05 * 1.2 * 1.2 * 0.25 * 1.35 * 2.06 * 0.5 = 58 807
Total Heal: 272 807
Total Heal (AA): 341 008
DPET: 214000 / (2 / 1.1) = 117 700
HPET: 272 807 / (2 / 1.1) = 150 043
HPET (AA): 341 008 / (2 / 1.1) = 187 554
HPM: 272 807 / 6510 = 41.91
HPM (AA): 341 008 / 6510 = 52.38

As you can see, Penance has an insane HPS and HPM post-patch, even when compared to (post-patch) PoH on five targets.

Thanks for fixing mistakes. But I think that HPET(AA) and DPET(AA) shouldnt be so exiting. After you pop AA, you temporarly lose x0.7 mana saving and x1.2 damage bonus. In pure DPS scenario you wont pop AA ever.
I trigger AA only under SS, all other time I fear to lose dps =)

Gloryrider · 01/18/13, 7:37 AM

deleted - double post D:

Gloryrider · 01/18/13, 7:40 AM

Yea those 2 fights as well Szeretlek, definitely. Sha of Fear (normal at least) is a healing joke in general as long as your tank doesn't mess up with all that active mitigation they got going on (which really shouldn't happen at that level).

Aside from that whole discussion, I still hope it gets balanced out properly if they want to keep this general build for disc priest in 5.2. I feel as if they got too focused on the whole absorb thing at the start of MoP and now, seeing that it's not how they want it, are trying to revert that. But that means our other mechanics will need some love, not only atonement but also (maybe) Borrowed Time (this already gets some extra use now PWS is more accessible) and most of all Grace, since they lost a lot of their meaning in the last few months.