I think if Borrowed Time work for full duration w/o consuming on 1st non-instant spell - it will be good. Not overpowered, just quality of life.

And Grace stacked up with PoH? because I cant even remember what are the names of my direct heals (I HEARD that I have CHEAP, SLOW and USELESS spell for direct heal... hmmm what name is it...) Maybe too powerful wish.

I just included those for reference. Non-archangel numbers are already high enough to easily compete with PoH. You can already see this when looking at both spells' base and scaling values (since all crit- and haste-related effects are the same for those spells).

Penance_Base_HPS: 1000 * 3 * 1.2 * 1.2 * 1.05 / 2 = 2268
Penance_Scaling_HPS: 1.037 * SP * 3 * 1.2 * 1.2 * 1.05 / 2 = 2.352 * SP
PoH_Base_HPS: 8688 * 5 / 2.5 = 17376
PoH_Scaling_HPS: 0.838 * 5 / 2.5 = 1.676 * SP

We can already see how PoH has higher base values while Penance scales way better with SP. Now as to determine the breakpoint:

2268 + 2.352 * SP = 17376 + 1.676 * SP => 0.676 * SP = 15108 => SP = 22349

So basically with Evangelism and CoE up, we're looking at 22349 SP for Penance to provide more HPS than PoH would. Including flask and raid buffs, I think that's roughly ilevel 470.

This also means Penance will become even stronger compared to PoH with every new tier of items.

@Hidden

I am afraid your post does not make any sense to me. Every post anyone has made before is out of the window with the new stats. I am not ignoring penance or archangel. I just calculated with my unbuffed SP, but buffed mastery and crit and zero haste, what kind of HPS I would be doing as disc and found it to be 90k odd. As holy its roughly 130k

I don't agree that crit is good unless you are mostly pure atonement smiting. Aegis from crit is random, you don't choose when it goes up or on who. PWS on the other hand is not.

Here is an example:

All our wipes on garalon on the kill night. Details for Shaarra - 16-01 22:59 - After Hours - World of Logs

Look at aegis "overheal" and look at PWS "overheal". And this is hc garalon we are talking about.

Check our kill on windlord to see an even worse comparison.

Sretzelek:

Your math is wrong. You have to multiply by haste not divide.

You are ignoring borrowed time, which changes everything and I hope you realise that 50% of your estimated healing comes from crits and random aegis that you can't keep alive.

PWS with borrowed time: 114633 / 1.5 * 1.1 *1.15 = 96 673.83

PoH 5 targets = 5* 61310/2.5*1.1= 134 882
PoH 4 targets = 107 905.6

PWS:PoH 1:1 = (5*61310+114633)/(1.5+2.5/1.15)*1.1 = 126 106

Now lets look at a rather different gearing. Lets take out 11% crit and convert it to 20% mastery and 6% haste.

PWS new value = 114633*1.55/1.35 = 131 615

PoH new value = 52 159

PWS with borrowed time = 131 615/1.5*1.16*1.15 = 117 050 HPS
PoH 5 targets = 5* 52 159/2.5*1.16 = 121009
PoH 4 targets = 96807

PWS/PoH5 targets 1:1 = 123 899.04617458774

This is with zero overheal and assuming zero wasting on aegis. If you are hitting 4.5 targets per PoH with your numbers you end up with 121 393.8 HPS.

I suggest you calculate the HPS you can get from glyphed binding heal and factor in 5% universal crit buff on PoH from inner focus and 5% overheal on PoH then run the numbers again. The results will surprise you.

=============================================================

[Removed due to complaints from the moderator]

Oh please, just copy paste it next time
Yep, its bad mistake, that Ive already pointed out.
I hope you realise that 100% of your proposed healing comes from spell with 8hpm?) It devalues all the math behind it. It never will be a major healing tool. Maybe minor in rare occasions, but we have SS for that.

I have 24326 spellpower unbuffed.

Penance hits for 26226

PoH hits for 29073

Add 1.05*1.2 to penance and you get

33 044.76

HPS for penance is base*1.5

For PoH its base*2 for 5 targets. So PoH without any aegis is 18% more HPS than penance now. With the 20% buff penance will be a little above PoH on 5 targets.

But penance has an even more desirable property. It does not use up borrowed time.

Unfortunately penance is still a low HPS spell without a lot of damage buffs on the boss. With a lot of damage buffs it has high overheal so the 20% buff does nothing.

I doubt things will stay as they are, because if they do all this is pointless no one will be playing disc except on fights made for atonement and even then your HPS will be low.

You couldnt be more wrong about garalon. Because of the constant stun I cast PWS a lot. Before each stun I pop it on any target I can and pop PoM/Cascade so I can have a fast PoH exiting the stun and hte instants working. I don't cast PWS only on the tanks. Everytime I move when there is 8+stacks I use it. I generally use PWS very frequently.

It is the same on any heroic fight, because I control it PWS has less wastage rate than aegis, which I cannot completely due to atonement and spirit shell.

I know when to cast it so it gets absorbed and trust me I get the aegis from my PoHs abosrbed I dont let it go to waste, but aegis from atonement and left over aegis when I spam spirit shell I just can't control. That is why it has more loss rate.

Glyphed CoH is more HPS than penance after the chakra change. 1.5 cast time and it hits for just about 20k per target before crit and mastery. PoM is also good HPS with divine insight and the 2 set bonus. I think you grossly overstimating where disc is. Spirit shell is a big big buff to tank healing and its taken a 40% nerf for both single target and aoe heals. Yes PWS is cheaper and penance is more but in terms of single target healing disc is worse off than holy.


You are ignoring rapture. Spamming more PWS = more rapture procs. Also you are not going to spam PWS all day long. No point in using PWS on someone unless you can be sure they will take big damage in the next 15s and ofc you need to take full advantage of borrowed time.

PoM has been buffed by the 2 set bonus, so 19809 for me unbuffed compared with 29k unbuffed for PoH. So now PoM is more HPS than PoH is. PWS-penance-Solace-PoM-binding heal is 4 spells with 15% haste and by my reconing more HPS than PoH under heavy damage conditions.

You might think that PoH with 25% crit is massively more HPM than PWS, but I dont think so. You see a group taking a 100k hit and you have no guarantee that they will take damage again in the next 15s. Do you wait until they take it and heal them with PoH or do you use PWS. If you choose PoH Then you will still need to cast 3 PoHs despite your 25% crit. Also aegis from crits will stay there and do nothing. All the benefit from crit has evaporated.

I think what will happen is that most of your HPM that you think PoH is getting from crit is just hot air. Lets wait and see what happens when the patch hits.

I think Disc will switch to holy, and for those who don't PWS+instants will yield better results than those who go crit and try to spam a slow party limited heal.

Im not ignoring it. Contrary I want Rapture be used closed to 12sec as possible. But if for 1 Rapture proc I have to cast 2-3 PWS, then there is no profit in such Rapture. 8hpm.. 1 Rapture - 1 PWS. Other usage of PWS is limited. No need to cast such an inefficient spell.

Ok, we`ll see it all at 5.2 =)

Havoc, if you want to discuss, you should really read others' posts, but I'll repeat myself:
In similar gear, post-patch Evangelism Penance has roughly the same HPET, double the HPCD and double the HPM of unglyphed CoH. If you glyph CoH, you're looking at more HPET but still less HPCD and even less HPM compared to Penance.
Penance outperforms PoH HPSwise beginning at 22349 SP. Of course it won't be much more HPS when you're using your unbuffed 24k SP, however in a raid setting with 5.2 gear you're easily looking at an average of 30-40k SP, if not more in full 5.2 gear, further reinforcing the lead of Penance over PoH.

As for the rest: With Inner Will and mastery stacked T14HC gear we're looking at 12 HPM for PW:S. Additional Rapture returns over usual usage are fairly negligible when you're utilizing Rapture properly. You will not be able to compete with other healers if you mainly rely on a 12 HPM spell while gimping all your other spells by stacking mastery (and using Inner Will). Spells such as Rejuvenation have double the HPM and more HPS than that.

So wait, you're saying that
(14k * 1.5 * 1xrapture) - (13.5k * 3xPWS) = -5.5k
It's not 5.5k, it's -19.5k i.e. you lose almost 4 times as much as you think.

Seems like you're simply behind on facts. Rapture is currently 150% of priests' spirit (no procs) on PTR. Not 250% or whatever you did those calculations with. See Wowhead's patchnotes here first. Also read back the last 2-3 pages, it's not like it's the first time the change in rapture is brought up.

I find the angle you're approaching these changes with a little ...disturbing. You're already worried about how far these changes are putting us behind other healers, although you never give the slightest hint that you might think we're a little overpowered - especially in 25m. The question isn't how you can snipe other's heals so you can keep up on the meters, it's how you're addressing different types of incoming damage the best and frankly i'm also not sure if crit will be best for that, but it IS a high throughput stat, a lot higher than mastery even with heavy PW:S style.

All we know right is that yes atonement is getting a buff and we'll be using it more and same goes for PWS but no you can't keep absorbs "alive" anymore, because blizzard doesn't want you to. SS will be the only valid raid bubbler, with PW:S spam *maybe* a valid backup depending on mana. It's already clear that blizzard doesn't want it to be, since they reverted the mana cost from 50% reduction to only 25% already - a minor gain.

Ok, you said that. In my previous post I made some calcs about mana regen.

Lets assume that you have 12k spirit
6772 mp5 naturally, 6000 base mp5, 2250 mp5 from SF, and 4200mp5 from Solace.
Rapture gives you with 14 sec cd = 12000*150%/14sec * 5sec = 6400 mp5.
total mana regen w/o PWS cost 25622 mp5
PWS every 7 sec takes away from you 13725/7 * 5 = 9800 mp5
PWS every 7 sec with 50% mastery and 35000sp (im so generous, really) ~125 000. HPS = 125000/7 = 17800 hps

You spend 9800/25622 = 38% of your TOTAL mana for 17800hps (very effective way to suck as Disc in my opinion). If you are sure that it the most efficient way to spend mana, then rest of your mana are spend to less efficient spells.

This is dumb.

Yes I didn't notice rapture got nerfed further, so I was using 250% rapture as a factor. 150% rapture makes spirit a lot less powerful and stacking mastery or mastery/haste much less viable.


Disc already operates at a low HPM when you are spaming PoH with high overheal. Smite has pretty crappy HPM but you are still using it. Some of your spells will have low HPM, the question is how much can you afford to use them and does using them improve your HPS. If efficiency is all that mattered then we would only heal with rapture pws and penance and wait around for them to be available in between. What matters is how you can push out the maximum possible HPS in a real environment. Even with 150% rapture disc has stronger mana return than most other classes.

I dont think your calculation is relevant, because you are forgetting borrowed time. Chaining 1-2 spells on each borrowed time gives you a hefty haste buff. Also you are looking at something like 100k HPS. So PWS is 38% of your mana for 17.8k HPS which is about 18% of your HPS and an extra 5-10% haste on the rest of your HPS so an extra 4-8% extra HPS from borrowed time. so 22-26% of your HPS. Seems reasonable to me.


To put this discussion on a more solid basis lets actually sit down and figure out what is what in terms of our heals.

Using 24236k spellpower 60% mastery, 14% crit (+5 from inner focus on PoH), 10% haste.

PoH heals for 29073. PoM heals for 19809, penance hits for 26226*1.2 (since it will be buffed), binding heal heals for 39794, PWS absorbs 103895, holy fire hits for 33839, smite hits for 23184, cascade is up to 42391

Lets add the secondary stats:

PoH -- 29073*(1+0.15*2.6) = 40412
PoM -- 19809*(1+0.15*2.6) = 27535
Penance (atonement) -- 42927
BH -- 54279
Holy Fire -- 46156
Smite -- 31623
Cascade -- 57821

PoH HPS (5 targets) = 40412*2 = 80 824
BH HPS (3 targets) = 54279*2 = 108558
PoM HPCT (no 2set, no glyph) = 29595*5/1.5 = 90065
PoM HPCT (2set, no glyph) = 29595*6.1051/1.5 = 109971

Cascade max HPCT = 63332*10 = 63332 on 25 man and 63332*10/1.5 = 422213 on 10 man

Penance always applies 1 stack of evangelism with the 1st attack so the 2nd and 3rd never have less than 1 evangelism, so HPS coefficients for penance are 1.54, 1.6, 1.66, 1.72, 1.78, 1.8 for 0-5 stacks of evangelism respectively.
Penance (atonement) -- min: 42927*1.54 = 66107|| max: 42927*1.8 = 77269
With 5% more spell damage on boss -- min: 69412 || max: 81132

Thus at this point in time BH (when it is usable) has the highest HPS, followed by PoM (when it will jump 5 times), penance and finally PoH.
With the 2set bonus, its PoM, BH, penance, PoH

With the 4set bonus its penance, PoM, BH, PoH,


More importantly PoM is smart, BH has 2 clearly defined targets and a second target smart targeted and penance is a smart heal, which also stacks evangelism.

Thus PoH should only be used by disc when PoM, BH and penance are not usable/suitable. PoM should not be glyphed and binding heal should always be glyphed, because during heavy aoe damage, penance, pom and binding heal are your 1st port of call not PoH. PoH is now just a pretty crappy filler, while waiting for a CD or when BH can't be used. It is slow party limited and now it hits like a wet noodle. Even though I chose mastery here instead of crit, the values do not change if you change mastery into crit, because PoM, binding heal and penance scale in the same way as PoH with our secondary stats. PoM, penance and cascade can all be chained with borrowed time.

============================================================================

Now to put the secondary stat discussion to bed: Why is crit bad and why people just can't see to get it.

The return of crit is just impossible to calculate from the average values. Let me give you some examples.

Take a heal which hits for 40 and crits for 80

Now assume 50% crit rating. We predict that crit should contribute 33.33% to HPS if it has its full value

Here is a very skewed distribution:

The bottom row is average values

Crit contribution: 0.3333333333, value 100%


Now take a different distribution:


Crit contribution 19.5%, value: 58%

Nice that the average crit is very nearly double the average heal, but the avearge crit is only higher than a non overhealing normal crit by 17.

So skewed distrubutions where OH is either very high or very low do not affect crit so much. In any uniform distribution affects crit dramatically. If the fight has a uniform damage distribution and you see crits being very close to a non-crit heal with zero overheal then you know crit has very little value.

Now lets take two 30s sequences, one with high PWS usage and stacking mastery (60%mast, 14% crit) and one with low PWS usage, but stacking crit (40% mast, 22% crit).

Modelling IF as 5% extra crit on PoH I get 120920.3038 for the high PWS sequence and 128235.2199 for the low pws sequence.

Theretically you would expect you expect crit to be 12% better throughput for all spells besides PWS and PWS is actually the lowest throughput spell in the sequence, so you would expect the mastery set to be below crit, way more than 12%, because you are replacing some PoH casts with PWS. However it turns out to be only 6% better, due to borrowed time. That is ofc with zero overheal and factoring inner focus in a way that devalues crit minimally. If I choose to replace one of the PoHs with inner focus PoH in each sequence I get 126233.9215 and 131808.3916. (4% difference). Crit gives you ~10% better spirit shell, so the question is whether you can offset that. I am not sure if haste works better with this sequence.

The only question is how much PWS usage we can support with our current mana regenation. One PWS synching with penance, solace and PoM may be sustainable.

No I didnt 3 ticks 2 sec cast time so HPS (without haste) is (healing per tick)*1.5, but that ignores evangelism. Evangelism means the HPS co-efficient is 1.54 to 1.8. At 24k spellpower penance hits for 45k with 15% crit and 60% mastery and the 5.2 buff. With 38k spellpower and 25% crit and 35% mastery it hits for 76k with 5.2 values.

It does not look like you understood. I have just showed you how dramatic can the benefit from borrowed time be. So the HPS benefit of PWS is both PWS and the 15% haste on the spells that you chain aftewards.

However you do bring up an interesting point. I had assumed that taking mastery is essential for producing more HPS with a high PWS sequence, but it turns out that its not. A high PWS sequence is more HPS even when you are stacking crit.

Mana regen from spirit is ~half your total regen as disc (see below) with the 5.2 rapture. It is currently 60-70% of total regen at 12k spirit.

With 150% rapture, @12k spirit and 24k spellpower, int increases healing by 0.00480%, before overheal while spirit increases regen by 0.00416% (see below). For atonement intellect increases healing by something like 0.006% per point again before overheal and inner focus. At 38spellpower 12k spirit, 25% crit. Intellect increases heals by 0.0035% and atonement by 0.0046%.

The question of which is more valid is simple. If you don't have enough mana to cast the best possible HPS combo then dropping intellect for spirit may be an HPS increase, depending on how much HPS you gain by using more expensive spells relative to how much HPS you lose by dropping int.

Using the most efficient spells is pointless, unless you can produce your maximum HPS while using them. Maxing HPS means using the highest sustainable combo. Disc gets rapture to offset our naturally low HPM, so I don't see the point of being afraid of low HPM.

============================Math Section========================================

Shadowfiend is 27% of max mana per 3 minutes and we can synch it with hymn of hope to buff it to 30.15% of max mana, so its 28.575 on average or 0.79375% of max mana per 5 seconds. Solace will return 0.5% of max mana per 5 seconds and it will also return 5400*(1-3*0.06)/2 = 2 214 mp5. Hymn of Hope returns 8% of max mana per 6 minutes
or 0.11111% of max mana per 5 seconds. Total is 1.405% of max mana + 2214 per 5 seconds = 6428mp5. Base regen is ~6k also. Your shadow fiend and solace when used optimally are roughly equal to 6k spirit. If your base regen is 12k. Then 12k spirit already adds 6.8k mp5 and 6k from rapture. Spirit regen is equal to half your total regen.

That does not devalue spirit unless you don't have enough mana to cast all the spells you want to cast in an encounter.

12169 spirit, increases mana regen in combat by 6867.5mp5. I.e. 0.564 mp5 in combat per point of spirit.

1 point of spirit also returns 1.5 mana per rapture, so with 1 per 15s that returns 0.5mp5. Add them together and you get 1.064 mp5. Raid buffed 1 point of spirit returns 1.1172. On live it is dramatically higher ofc, but lets just talk about post 5.2

if 1 spirit returns 1.1172 mp5, then it will return 84.384 mana for a 6 minute fight. With a total regen of roughly 24kmp5 and a base pool of 300k mana that is 24000*12*6+300000 = 2 028 000 mana available to you. That is 0.0041609467% more regen per point of spirit.

At 24000 spellpower 1 point of intellect assuming all buffs increases all heals by 1.334025*0.0001/(1+0.0001*24000) = 0.000039236029 = 0.0039236029% . It also increases crit by 0.000478084963%, so in total it increases PWS by 0.0039236029% and everything else by 0.0048 at 15% crit obviously before overheal. It increases atonement by ~40% more if I am not mistaken.