I do not understand where you are not in accordance together.

Basically, you write the same thing. It is not necessary to go deeply to calculate if it is 40% nerf or 38.7% nerf (just an example)
Nerf is serious on PoH and SS and even the reforging from mastery to Critical does not limit the nerf to a low value.
(will be around 33% for SS and 25% for PoH alone).

The problem also is not that PoH has just 25% of nerf , it is mainly that nerf is applied on absorb part (so incredibly more than 25%)
When you take into account the OverHeal of the healing part that we have actually on PoH to stack Aegis, the impact of this modification is colossal.

That means that we will have to reduce the OverHeal of the PoH (since no systematic aegis is created) and use only PoH alone while there are damage except when Inner Focus will be available.

This double impact on our absorbs (SS and aegis) will have a very high effect on our competitivity regarding the others healers since our absorbs have priority on heal part regarding the consumption.
Our nerf will go directly to up the others healers and the existing gap betwwen disci and the others can change very quickly !


I have seen your explanation about critical v/s haste.
My personal feeling (without numbers and formula) is that critical has still 3 major issues compare to haste even if the critical stat has a better scaling than haste on all spell (except for PWS)

1. Critical is still random. (except under SS)
2. Critical create more OverHeal than Haste (A crit heal on POH will maybe arrived on a player who do not need a crit effect)
3. The aegis coming from a crit spell could fade easely since we do have anymore a tool to refresh it.

So even if the Critical has a better scaling than the haste, i will run for Haste on 5.2

Also, we do not know what will be the final modification on PWS but as the critical does not scale on this spell and PWS will probably have to be used more and more , Haste is probably the best solution !

Maybe you speak for your gameplay because you have calculated that spamming PoH when SS is not available is the best way to improve your HpS but i do not play like this because i prefer to go for smite and others spells while SS is not available so i have learned to press other buttons since long time !

i think it is stupid argument to use because it is not the reality of common disc players especialy in 10 man raid.


not sure that SS will be enough strong to pre heal most of damage on 5.2.
The absorb done of 3 PoH per group under SS & Archangel will not be suffisant and it is worst in 25 men raid.

Even if you do not win additional cast on SS with haste , you win time to continue casting PoH after the SS proc if health raid is not at the maximum level.
If health raid is still at its maximum value , you have others spells like PWS, smite, pom etc... to use just after.

So the improvement due to the haste after SS proc is still present.

Anyway, we will have 1 extra cast under SS very easely because 4722 haste might not be a problem and borrowed time helps to win margin on this cap).
by increasing your haste by 16.7% , you win 16.67% in efficiency for SS if you do not reach the cap value of 60% of health player.
It is less than the improvement given by the same amount of critical points but it is good also.

In any others situations than SS, critical will create more OverHeal and OverAbsorb than Haste.
And once again, it is probable that PWS will be used more than actually to make a compensation of the nerf of PoH absorb and PWS do not scale with crit.
If PWS reached around 15% of your total heal on 5.2 , you have already a real effect on critical weight on the total heal done.

Disc cannot fight in healing part with the others healers and must concentrate its added value on absorb.
But absorbs created by critical spells via eagis must be controled to avoid to fade and this is not realistic since PoH cannot maintain aegis.
Except if damages on the new raid are constant and always present on raid. in that case, aegis will be used.

I think more and more, Disc will need Haste and Spirit.
From my point of view, you need , at least, to reach the minimum cap of haste for SS before to increase you critical stat.
(and you will probably also win an additional tic for the shadowfiend)

For critical without SS activation, i have several questions for you to convince me :
- how much do you evaluate your OverAbsorb in 5.2 due to aegis fading ?
- how much do you evaluate your OverHeal in 5.2 due to the critical part of the heal ?
- do you think , we will have continuous damage on players with the new raid profil ?
- how much do you evaluate the PWS part in you total heal on 5.2 ?

All these answers help to understand if the critical stats will be good or not.
(of course, if the answers are low/low/yes/low, critical is good but at the level of information where i am today, i do not know if these answers are correct)

1) not so much, new raid instance is intense healing, aoe fest, random spikes etc. more crit, less fading.
2) doesnt matter, crit both good for dps and more consistent bubble spawn and increase hpm, which increase efficiency of your heals. It matters on progression.
3) Yea, alot. There are many movies from PTR
4) As always - 5-10%. Rapture and emergency lifesaving purpose only. 25% mana cost reduction and its stat scaling dont make that spell good one to use. PWS make you stack mastery to be somewhere in average spot. And you dont need mastery, so PWS will be just free heal each 12 sec.

Haste buff is the same as haste rating as far as I can tell, so its additive. Are you sure about the multiplicative stacking? Are you assuming it is or have you actually checked. This does not make haste worse though it makes it better. Multiplicative stacking means that it does not reduce the value of haste from gear.

As for the rest of the corrections thank you very much for pointing out, but I am afraid the make no difference. 2.5% less mastery does not change the results at all. They are still effectively the same.

1% more crit makes crit worse.

16.8% haste still lets you get an extra cast on spirit shell, even 15% haste lets you get an extra cast because of borrowed time.

The values are still the same despite these corrections. Haste to 17% is better than crit, especially if you are chaining inner focus with spirit shell.

Basically the benefit you get from crit is quite small.

DPS wise

crit 8% crit compared with 12% haste

(1+0.22)/(1+0.14) = 1.070175438596

(1+0.22)/(1+0.1) = 1.109090909091

Haste is dramatically higher DPS than crit.

The only reason why crit produces better results than haste is because of aegis and nothing else. However lets see what happens when you get 20% OH on crits and 15% overheal on aegis, with 32.5% mastery and 25% crit.

if OHc = overheal on crits (if OHc > 0.5 then set OHc = 0.5) and OHa = "overheal" on aegis and assuming that overheal on crits follows a normal distribution (this is essential for validity) then

healing = base*(1+crit*(2-(2*OHc+OHa)+(1-OHa)*mastery)) = base*(1+crit*(Kc+Ka+Ka*mastery), where Kc = 1-2*OHc and Ka = 1-OHa

then the co-efficient for heals becomes (1+crit*(1.45+mastery*0.85)) adding in the values we get 1.4315625

Without overheal for 32.5% mastery and 25% crit we get 1.58125

Same thing for 17% crit and 32.5% mastery gives 1.2934625 with overheal and 1.39525 with zero overheal

So under these conditions although you expect 8% crit to give you an increase of 1.133309442752, instead you get 1.106767687505.

In contrast 12% haste gives you an improvement of 9.5-11% depending on playstyle.

That is why the value of crit is only good on paper. 20% OH on crits and 15% overheal on aegis are pretty much the minimum values you can get in any fight where there is any point in being discipline really.

If you look at mastery then

Same thing for 17% crit and 52.5% mastery gives 1.3223625, which is 8% less than crit with overheal.

No one is arguing that mastery is now our worse stat for everything except PWS, but crit is not the best of the worst it is just our second worse stat. Haste is better despite being devalued quite dramatically by the fact that penance, PoM and cascade are now major HPS increases.

Also I can't for the life of me understand why you are so fixated on HPM. If HPM is just a derivative value it only has a meaning in the context of improving the maximum healing you can deliver over the length of a fight. At the moment the maximum healing you can deliver is improved more by spirit than by intellect at effectively a 1:1 ratio, for everyone with less than 12k spirit. Now if you can take more spirit and spam higher HPS but lower HPM spells more than you can potentially reach higher HPS than stacking int. As things stand in 5.2 spirit is the best stat if you are mana limited.

Haste is better than crit for everything, even spirit shell until 17%. This is because it takes only 10% haste from gear to effectively reach the first break point for spirit shell, if you utilise borrowed time. More importantly Inner Focus will pretty much need to be chained with spirit shell now, which strongly devalues crit.

I have explicitly shown that even if you keep your mastery and just get enough haste to get to the first breakpoint, you STILL get a better deal on spirit shell than you do with haste and that is with mastery having half the value of crit. If you take haste to the first breakpoint and then reforge everything else to crit you absolutely destroy crit stacking for spirit shell, for any conceivable senario.

The values are not even close, it takes so little overheal to destroy the value of crit that haste is the absolute best no brainer stat for discipline until you have 17-20% haste. You need to get this value at all costs. If it means you need to drop some int for spirit so be it.


We must be watching different videos. I see fights with tons of random damage and short brutal spikes. These are the absolute worse for PoH and random aegis. It is not raid wide damage so you have no guarantee that people who get crits will get damaged. I see plenty of 15s gaps where no one takes damage after a big spike. During that time every bit of aegis not on the tank will be gone. Even worse consider being with a paladin healer. He is constantly putting absorbs down and they are smaller, which means his absorbs get eaten up first, effectively sniping yours.

If you have less than 20% OH on crits and less than 15% aegis loss I would be extremely surprised.

All in all, crit is a terrible terrible stat. It is better than mastery now, but that is really not hard at all, even old socks are better than mastery, unless it turns out that the fights support very high PWS usage (I doubt it).

=============================================================================

No one in 25man uses nothing but PoH. At least no one who performs decently. It is only during spirit shell that PoH is spammed almost exclusively. Just because PoH does most of the healing it does not mean you can ignore the rest. It is still a very large part of your healing and more importantly you need it to boost PoH output.

=============================================================================

Some interesting mental exercises:

Factoring overheal for crit

How much crit does it take for mastery to become equal in value to crit? The answer is (2+mastery)/2.5 at 0 overheal

Above 50% mastery crit is always better. At the minimum value of 32.5% mastery crit is better until you hit 93% crit.

If we factor overheal the formula is 0.4*(Kc+Ka+Ka*mastery)/Ka

With OHc = 0.2 and OHa = 0.15 at minimum mastery this is 0.4*(0.6+0.85+0.85*0.325)/0.85 = 0.812352941176. Thus it takes 81% crit before mastery becomes better.

The point at which haste and crit are equal is when crit = 0.7083658*(1+haste) - 1/(2+mastery)

At minimum mastery and 10% haste, haste becomes better than crit at all values of overheal when you reach 35% crit.

Taking overhealing into account the formula becomes crit = 0.7083658*(1+haste) - 1/(Kc+Ka+Ka*mastery)

Using the same values as before haste becomes better when crit is 20%

Offtopic. About haste.
Its all multiplicative.
(Haste rating)*k1*k2*k3*...=Haste.
Haste rating come from gear or trinket proc.
others sources are for example:
Bloodlust 1.3
Power Infusion 1.2
Goblin racial 1.01
Raid buff 1.05
etc

So, if you have 4250 rating, that means you have 4250/425 = 10% haste from gear.
You are goblin in raid under BL:
1.1*1.05*1.01*1.3 = 1,516515.
Which means that you have 51.65% haste in that circumstances.

lets again talk about haste vs crit.
Lets assume:
1) battle length - 300sec (5min)
2) total regen - 17500mp5, so 17500 mp5 give you per 300 sec = 1 050 000 mana. Plus 300k starting mana.
You have 1 350 000 mana.
3) You spend all your mana for 5min fight. Thats 1 350 000 / 300 = 4 500 mana/sec consumption

If you have 5% haste from gear and 5% raid buff, thats totally 10.25% haste.
If you raise gear haste by 1%, it will be totally 11.3% haste.

Absolutely logical to propose that mana/sec consumption is correlating with haste. So I make proportion about new mana consumption:

4500 / 1.1025 = X / 1.1130

We find that X = 4543 mana/sec.
Difference is 4543-4500 = 43 mana/sec. Or 43*5 = 215mp5

So you need additional 215mp5 for 1% haste from gear to provide yourself that extra casts that haste gives to you. If you cant afford it then you made exactly same numbers of casts within 5min with same amount of eHPS and value of haste is 0.00
215mp5 ~380 spirit.

So we shouldnt compare 425 haste vs 600 crit.
We should compare (425+380[as a burden]) vs 600 crit.
And then you will see that haste good only on fights where mana doesnt matter.
For farm raids and overgeared raids - yes.
WotLK situation with multurapture - yes yes yes!
End-Cata situation with absolutely ridiculous amount of Int Rapture gives you unlimited mana - yes.
For now, for undergeared progression fights with nerfed Rapture - hell no.

P.S. If I can raise Haste w/o that "burden" cost then Haste is absolutely the best stat, no discussion. Remember WotLK and End-Cata, where we stack haste (I did for sure)
If I cant provide myself with extra regen, then haste have too much cost to provide me that hps and dps increase and Crit is better, because it is Hps (even with overheal) and dps increase w/o need of extra mana.

I just want to point out that using a 5 minute fight length to do a meaningful analysis is unrealistic for a fight where it matters how you itemize. Going by T14, a fight is somehwere between 6 and 9 minutes, so using a 7.5 minute length would be reasonable, though you also have to take into account cooldowns and make sure that the fight length doesn't get a cooldon for the last X seconds (X beng the cooldowns duration) as that skews the value from any meaningful metric.

The longer the fight, the more mana efficiency matters since your initial mana pool will be a smaller portion of your total mana consumed.

I am not always in accordance with your demonstrations.
I did not check your calculation but it is what i have tried to tell to Szeretlek.

The impact of OverHeal or OverAbsorb of Crit spells on critical stat is high.
Even if the Critical stats is better on paper without considering the "Over" effects, its efficiency goes down very quickly.

As the efficiency of the haste goes down very quickly also if the cast is stopped.

Just to understand your numbers.
When you write 20% OH on crits, is it an additive value to the OH done on normal spell or is it the OH done on crit heal ?

Maybe i am not clear....
in your assumption, if OH on normal heal is 40%. do you write 20% OH on crits because you will have 60% OH on crit heal so 20% higher the one done with a normal heal ?

If 20% is the OH done by a crit spell, i think it is too low. (at what level of OH would be a normal heal in that case ?)

OK.
So you add in the scope of comparison an other criteria which is the mana capability.

I can agree with you on these bases because extra haste will cost more mana.
Then the total points that you can put in Critical stats will be higher than the total points you can put in Haste because some Spirit points must be used to balance the mana consumption.

This compensation is only valuable when spells are spammed.
As, this is true that when spells are not spammed for a short period, the compensation has not be applied but also in that case, haste stats is useless.

*********
I see that you have done the demonstration of spirit compensation in a following memo.

In fact, it is true on paper but not realistic because adding really 10% of haste will not add 10% of conssumption.

This is true in burst mode but it is not always present of course during a fight. (but i am waiting with your next comment saying in that case, when burst is not present, haste is nothing ...)


That is why , it is very difficult to find a mathematic formula to take into account all theses criterias...

I'm not sure I've ever seen a situation more favoring crit for a healing class than 5.2 Disc. It's about as lopsided a stat comparison as you can find these days.

Disc crit heals are not only well over triple-strength heals, but much of the bonus is in the form a shield, which is the most effective type of heal that there is. It takes the usual dubious argument against crit ("yeah but it's all overheal" *handwave*) and turns it on its head. The healing amount added by crits is less likely to go to waste than normal added healing. Moreover, you get both--100% of the base heal value in the form of added healing, and 100%+mastery in the form of shield. The stat is full-out double-dipping.

Evaluating the fact that haste drains extra mana is moot when crit adds more burst healing anyway, at the cost of 0 mana.

Just a few data points regarding crit, overhealing, etc., from some of my own recent logs:
Protectors of the Endless (Hard): 11.8% overhealing, mean effective crit (not counting DA) 2.06x mean effective non-crit
Sha of Fear: 24.8% overhealing (mostly due to Atonement), crit multiplier 2.04x
Shek'zeer: 14.1% overhealing, 2.16x crit multiplier

These were taken across many attempts, so should be a reasonably accurate picture of my healing. Crit is damn useful.