Disc Priest - Mists of Pandaria - Page 19

Beshar · 02/03/13, 12:40 PM

You need more then 4.2k haste because even with the spell queue system the delay isnt 0ms, but whatever...

4.2k Haste: 7 PoHs every SS and 8 PoHs every second SS through PI -> 7.5 average. Weaker SS because you have less int and crit.
2.8k Haste + EoT: 8 PoHs every second SS and 8 PoHs every second SS through PI -> 8 average.

More and stronger SS PoHs. And you can trigger EoT in a 10sec time window almost every single time because penance ticks can trigger it. But it is harder to play because you have to plan your procs and SS usage way earlier and there will be situations were you cant sync it.

Darkmoon Card is super bad it doesnt scale at all with rapture and so is Spirits of the sun. Will of the Emperor Trinket on the other hand is even worse because you gain mana regen but its the worst trinket throughput wise.

To the overheal: You cant calculate it so we only can speculate. We, the hardcore raiders, will always progress through new content undergeared. We will always try to heal with the least amount of healers possible to beat the enrage timers. This means the health deficits will be bigger. There are also more failures which will increase the deficits even further. So, for a progress raider at least, the overheal rate from current logs isnt accurate at all. Even if you try to analyze them, it will be always unaccurate.

From a hardcore progress raiders point of view overheal will be less. Haste on the other hand gives you the possibilty to cast faster and maybye rescue someone that would have died 0.05sec later. But he can also die after you healed him with 2k overkill because your heals are weaker. With the current impressions and experience i got from ptr raids crit will be stronger but we will see when 25man hc ptr tests will start. To be honest i dont like the randomness of crit and i enjoy fast heals but in its current state i dont think that i will have a choice.

Havoc12 · 02/03/13, 8:49 PM

Originally Posted by Perkeyone

These numbers are arbitrary, but here is the math.
With 2 groups taking 40k dps each, the raid wide dtps is 80k. If the healing output is 100k/s, 20% of that would overheal (100-80)/100.
With 110k hps, 10% more than before, your overhealing would go up to 27% (110-80)/110

Haste is affected by overheal.

Your example here is flawed. Your extra hps needs extra damage or it becomes overheal.

You are assuming here that the damage is limiting. That does not mean that overheal affects haste it means that there is not enough damage to heal, but that is already taken care off in the part about 100% overheal. Either there is a big damage phase and a very low dps phase or constant low level damage. If its the former then its just an enforced break in casting essentially. If it is the latter then smaller but more heals will decrease your overheal and increase your effective healing, so haste has even better value. In either case haste is not affected by overheal. Your example and your argument has already been considered and countered.

Beshar, I don't think hardcore or semi-hardcore makes a difference. Hardcore progress raiders squeeze more out of their gear than semi-hardcore and casual raiders. Every heroic kill we had despite being weeks and in some cases months after progress guilds has been right up against the enrage timers and healing has always been challenging. On garalon we had people doing 50k HPS. Sure you will have less gear than a guild progressing slower, but you will also have everyone performing at 100%.

105 ICD means that you can end completely unsynching this trinket with spirit shell, especially if you try to get maximum uptime on archangel and if you are not using spirit shell exactly every minute. Also if you are getting the trinket up every 2nd spirit shell then that means your other spirit shell gets practically zero benefit from the 2.2k haste rating you have. I don't think you are getting a good deal from that trinket. Especially considering that a penance cast exactly when the ICD is over will proc it 61% of the time. The 10s window is indeed highly likely (though not always), but having it the start and at the end is very different, but your benefit can easily be lost by not casting spirit shell at the optimal time.

2k intellect at 35k spellpower is 2000*1.33*0.0001/(1+0.0002*35000) a 5.9% increase.

4.4k crit rating is 7.3% crit, which at 17% base crit would represent an increase of 12% so 1.12*1.059 = 1.18608, which is just bigger than the 1.167 increase you get from 4.4k haste.

The difference however is 1.6%, which is smaller the difference in effectiveness between spirit and int. That means by maxing spirit I would gain a little extra stats, to spend on int and/or crit, which more than offset the difference. If that haste gives me a better return outside spirit shell then its worth getting.

The PTR fights I have seen are seriously bursty. All the disc priest streams seem to be spamming atonement most of the time then healing hard in between. To me this is the worse possible situation for crit. Its too random to be reliable for healing hard burst and there is too much time for aegis to expire. I think that first 4.4k haste has a very high value and it is always worth getting if mana permits it.

4.4k will give you 16.4% haste. 15/2.5*1.164 = 6.984. Adding BT (15-2.5/1.164/1.15)/2.5*1.164+1 = 7.114434782609, which gives you an extra 250ms to play with. With PI you can get 8 casts, whereas with zero haste you can only get 7.

There is always the argument about possible lack of healing power leading to deaths. That is an unlikely situation 2k is less than the variation in healing numbers for almost all spells. If missing 2k is enough to kill someone then there is a good chance they will die even if you get that 2k. There is a safe window where your spells are too big to ever let someone die so unless losing that 2k puts you below that window then you can safely lose it. If it does put you below that window then you have small chance of losing someone and the chance gets bigger the more you lose. If you are very close to that window and you are stacking crit then you are tempting fate.

Perkeyone · 02/03/13, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by Havoc12

You are assuming here that the damage is limiting. That does not mean that overheal affects haste it means that there is not enough damage to heal, but that is already taken care off in the part about 100% overheal. Either there is a big damage phase and a very low dps phase or constant low level damage. If its the former then its just an enforced break in casting essentially. If it is the latter then smaller but more heals will decrease your overheal and increase your effective healing, so haste has even better value. In either case haste is not affected by overheal. Your example and your argument has already been considered and countered.

The damage IS limiting. Bosses use spells in specific intervals for specific durations for specific amounts of damage. You can't heal more damage than you take. If you are already overhealing during burst damage, low ticking damage, whatever damage, healing more will overheal more. It is really that simple. And no, you can't rely on having your haste, just by chance, line up your spell casts with the ticks of damage.

How is an enforced break in casting, a time where you do nothing, NOT a detriment to the value of haste? The benefit of haste is being able to do more stuff, not the same amount. If you can make a special exception for haste in that regard then why wouldn't the same apply to crit? Landing a critical heal is just an enforced break in casting.

I will make a simulation to demonstrate this. Low damage, high damage, fast ticks, slow ticks, etc. with 3 or 4 different haste values. And measure the hps and overheal.

Szeretlek · 02/04/13, 1:15 AM

Havoc12, you are so excited about BT before every SS and claim that it so easy, so why in your last log you do it only 3 times in 22 attempts (~30 SS casts). Plus 3 or 4 times when you cast PWS after SS (this is obviously not a gain for SS, so I dont count it)
Expression Editor - 03-02 22:55 - After Hours - World of Logs

And even under PI, BT you still gain 7 casts (timestamp 23:18:22 for example)? Without BT you still gain 7 casts in best case. This is useless waste of mana if PWS before SS goes without rapture and it is Rapture waste if you delay it intentionally.

I advise you to reconsider your opinion and dont claim that BT goes with 100% efficiency in every formula, because even you (who really try to do that stuff) have BT before SS in 1 of 10 cases. And even then it has 0% profit.

Originally Posted by Havoc12

4.4k will give you 16.4% haste. 15/2.5*1.164 = 6.984. Adding BT (15-2.5/1.164/1.15)/2.5*1.164+1 = 7.114434782609, which gives you an extra 250ms to play with. With PI you can get 8 casts, whereas with zero haste you can only get 7.

I dont even think its somewhere close to reality, because in your logs mosts of time your 1st PoH cast started ~0.8-0.9 sec after you cast SS.

If we count overheal for crit, then lets count BT usage efficiency. And for your situation BT efficiency for SS =0% in 22 attempts.

Havoc12 · 02/04/13, 2:14 PM

Originally Posted by Perkeyone

The damage IS limiting. Bosses use spells in specific intervals for specific durations for specific amounts of damage. You can't heal more damage than you take. If you are already overhealing during burst damage, low ticking damage, whatever damage, healing more will overheal more. It is really that simple. And no, you can't rely on having your haste, just by chance, line up your spell casts with the ticks of damage.

How is an enforced break in casting, a time where you do nothing, NOT a detriment to the value of haste? The benefit of haste is being able to do more stuff, not the same amount. If you can make a special exception for haste in that regard then why wouldn't the same apply to crit? Landing a critical heal is just an enforced break in casting.

I will make a simulation to demonstrate this. Low damage, high damage, fast ticks, slow ticks, etc. with 3 or 4 different haste values. And measure the hps and overheal.

You can waste your time if you like. Faster smaller spells behave better in low overheal phases, because you are in competition with other healers, casting more spells faster increases your chance of getting a spell in before another healer and can thus have disproportionate return. If the damage is lower then you can spam a lower HPS more efficient spell and get the same HPS as before with higher efficiency allowing you spam more of your higher HPS lower efficiency spells later on.

If the boss has a high damage phase followed by a no damage phase, then its just another breakpoint. Continuous low level damage means every spell has a chance of getting there before another healer does and casting more and smaller spells nets you a return proportional to the spells you cast.

I will do you a favour and explain it one more time. If you don't get it this time you are on your own.

Lets say you have time T1 at HPS1, time T2 at zero HPS, and time T3 at HPS2.
Your total healing done is H = HPS1*T1+HPS2*T2. Your HPS is H/(T1+T2+T3)

Adding x% haste means you will cast x% extra spells in T1 and T3, so you get H' = HPS1*T1*(1+x/100) and HPS2*T3*(1+x/100) = H*(1+x/100). Your HPS is H*(1+x/100)/(T1+T2+T3).

Enforced breaks in casting has zero effect on haste.

There is no escape from the facts no matter how many simulations you make. If you get any other result it just means you did your simulation wrong. Overheal magnifies the value of haste vs any other stat. That is the hard fact and nothing can change it.

Originally Posted by Szeretlek

Havoc12, you are so excited about BT....

And even under PI, BT you still gain 7 casts (timestamp 23:18:22 for example)

....I advise you to reconsider your opinion and dont claim that BT goes with 100% efficiency in every formula.

If we count overheal for crit, then lets count BT usage efficiency. And for your situation BT efficiency for SS =0% in 22 attempts.

You have wasted your time mate. I don't have enough haste to get to the breakpoint. Borrowed time makes zero difference to the spells I can get during spirit shell, exactly as I expect. I cast PWS for the healing or for rapture. I am healing one of the tanks and the raid in this encounter. Because of the extra time I have during spirit shell that I cannot use, I often activate spirit shell before the GCD is over and spam the next PoH to avoid losing any casting time.

I have tested this a million trillion times 10.5% haste and the haste buff is enough to get you 7x2.5 casts during spirit shell 100% of the time. I can't be bothered to find someone to give me haste buff so I can get you a screenie. Try it yourself if you don't believe me. Go to the PTR reforce to 16.5% or so haste cast a PWS wait until the GCD is over activate spirit shell and immediately spam PoHs. You will get 7 of them.

I advise you to not trust the time stamps on WoL so much. Asking me would have taken you a lot less time than going through the logs too.

BT usage efficiency is not 100%, some of it is always wasted. With 10% haste though I can fit a very good number of instants during borrowed time. I never assumed 100% BT usage efficiency. Spirit shell itself does not have 100% usage efficiency, because something can easily happen to make you move or lose time. This kind of thing hurts you more with crit than with haste though. It is pointless. As I said before there is not much point in discussing this further. You are not bringing up any new arguments and I am satisfied that I am right in my assessment so far, so unless you actually have something new this discussion is over for me.

I am personally happy with the way I have come up with evaluating crit efficiency and I am happy with my estimate of what is the best haste to get for now and I will certainly be maxing spirit not intellect. This is better for my holy spec too, which as things stand I will be using in all encounters which involve aoe healing. If you are not convinced by now, I am sure you either have a good reason and it won't work for your raid and your playstyle or you are simply shooting yourself in the leg out of stubbornness. Either way its none of my business.

==============================================================================

Aside from that renew with the glyph needs to be looked at again. I make it better HPS than PoH on 4 targets with borrowed time.

Beshar · 02/04/13, 3:03 PM

Originally Posted by Havoc12

You can waste your time if you like. Faster smaller spells behave better in low overheal phases, because you are in competition with other healers, casting more spells faster increases your chance of getting a spell in before another healer and can thus have disproportionate return.

Are you serious? You arent in competition at all. You are a team. You have to play together. You have to maximize the DPS output while keeping the raid alive. You have to be a team player. Every little bit of competition will hinder you progression. I guess the competitive behaviour holds many guilds in place. Worst argument i heard for a long time...

royalpoet · 02/04/13, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by Havoc12

You can waste your time if you like. Faster smaller spells behave better in low overheal phases, because you are in competition with other healers, casting more spells faster increases your chance of getting a spell in before another healer and can thus have disproportionate return.

I'm not sure this makes sense. If the main constraint you're facing is not addressing all the damage but, rather, getting in your healing just ahead of your fellow healers (and therefore pushing their healing into overheals instead of your own), then you should be dropping healers to the point that you have just enough team HPS to address the damage. You shouldn't be building a model around having more healing than necessary and then figuring out how to make your healing effective at the expense of others' healing.

Gloryrider · 02/04/13, 5:40 PM

Originally Posted by Havoc12

You can waste your time if you like. Faster smaller spells behave better in low overheal phases, because you are in competition with other healers, casting more spells faster increases your chance of getting a spell in before another healer and can thus have disproportionate return.

All I read here is "MY healing is more important than YOUR healing so mine should show as healing done and yours should be overhealing".
Just that fact that you just said that, makes everything else void in my eyes. If you would've argued on the case of a significant increase in DPS because of a haste setup I might have gone with it, but this, this is just ridiculous.

I also see your other points about haste, but as it stands you're just saying you'll have enough spirit for a haste setup (probably true) and others are saying crit is ranging somewhere around "equally good, little worse" but that you gain a lot more output due to less mana limitations (be it in choice of casts or intellect gemming/flasking etc). As far as I read, understood and tested (I've ran full raids with haste and crit setup) I'm still inclined on going with crit next patch, as are many others.

We all have our playstyles and a setup that works best for it, and if your aim is to outheal your own guildies just for the sake of the meters/logs, go ahead. It's just like you said, if we don't have the same goals there's no point arguing.

Havoc12 · 02/04/13, 6:47 PM

I find these responses odd and obviously out of subject, so I am not sure if I am within the forum rules in responding to them. Perhaps you didn't read the post I was responding to or the rest of the discussion?

I will clarify the bits that touch upon the subject.

The discussion is whether the value of haste is affected by overheal even in the extreme situations where there is a) very little damage (which only happens when you have too many healers in a trivial encounter) or b) there is alternating phases of very low damage and very high damage.

My answers addresses both questions.

You can waste your time if you like. Faster smaller spells behave better in low overheal phases, because you are in competition with other healers, casting more spells faster increases your chance of getting a spell in before another healer and can thus have disproportionate return. If the damage is lower then you can spam a lower HPS more efficient spell and get the same HPS as before with higher efficiency allowing you spam more of your higher HPS lower efficiency spells later on.

What goes where is self-evident. I have already explained in a previous post that if there is no damage you can choose to DPS instead and atonement heal, which is pretty much the best option for a disc priest, in which case haste is again beneficial. Whatever one chooses to do haste is not affected by overheal or enforced breaks in casting, which is the whole point of the conversation.

The rest is too ridiculous and too out of subject to respond to.

===============================================================================

After this little detour and since the matter of haste vs crit is already pretty much over (unless someone has anything useful to add) lets go to another important question:

Is it a good idea to roll glyphed renews under borrowed time instead of PoH or smite for more intensive raid healing?

Here are the numbers:

Renew glyphed (7.8k mana): 12134 per tick
PoH (13500): 29502
smite (8100 - 5670): 23622 - 28346
Flash heal (14160-17700): 57829

Under borrowed time renew gets 4 ticks with 0 to 19% haste (raid buffed) or 5 ticks with 19% haste.

Disregarding crit and all haste except borrowed time (it affects everything equally)

Renew with 4 ticks is 37211 HPCT, smite is 18897 HPS with fully stacked archangel and PoH is 11.6 per target.

Thus at 3 targets or less rolling 3 renews under borrowed time is more HPS than PoH or smite. Lets see the full sequence

With 35% mastery 18% crit chance, 19.4% haste or 35% mastery, 23% chance and 12% haste

PoH = 29500*(1+0.23*2.35)/2.5*1.12 = 20359 HPS per target
or PoH = 29500*(1+0.18*2.35)/2.5*1.194 = 20049 HPS per target
PWS at 35% mastery is 88967
Renew borrowed time with 23% crit and 12% haste is 12134*4*(1+0.23*2.35)/1.5*1.12*1.15 = 64202 HPCT
Renew borrowed time with 18% crit and 19.4% haste is 12134*5*(1+0.18*2.35)/1.5*1.194*1.15 = 79030 HPCT

Assuming rapture on CD, penance and solace used, PoM/BH unusable and 3 targets

PoH spam = 60 147 (haste), 61 077 (crit)

PWS+3renews = ( 88967+3*5*12134*(1+0.18*2.35) )/(1.5+3*1.5/1.15)*1.194 = 76 754.0 (haste)
or ( 88967+3*4*12134*(1+0.23*2.35) )/(1.5+3*1.5/1.15)*1.12 = 64 819 (crit)

Smite (full evangelism) is 28346*(1+0.23*2.35)/1.5*1.12 = 32605 (crit) or 32 107 (haste)

Flash heal (no grace): 66517 (crit) or 65 503 (haste)

HPM is:
PoH 10.1 (crit) or 9.33 (haste)
PWS/renew (no rapture) = or 9.43 (haste) or 8.45 (crit)
smite: 8.46 (crit) or 7.82 (haste)
Flash heal - no grace (2set) = 6.29 (crit) or 5.811487782486 5.81 (haste)
Flash heal - no grace = 5.03 (crit) or 4.65 (haste)

Thus even without grace it may be beneficial to use PWS and roll renews as a filler instead of smiting using PoH or flash heal when you are hitting 3 targets or less.

19.4% haste compared to 12% haste (what I have now raid buffed with 6.7% base haste) requires an increase of 6.6% in available mana, which is approximately 5.9% drop in healing (ignoring overheal) if intellect is replaced by spirit at 1:1 ratio or 2.8% loss in healing if int is replaced by spirit at 1:2 ratio with 150% rapture. This is equivalent to ~2000 intellect at 1:1 or ~1000 intellect at 1:2 assuming 35k spellpower. This is the maximum possible value, but in reality it will lower by a factor of (1-OHR) where OHR is your overheal rate, which is NOT the same as your overheal (or related to it in anyway).

Glyphed Renew under borrowed time is automatically the best filler under conditions requiring high movement.

Perkeyone · 02/05/13, 2:51 AM

Originally Posted by Havoc12

There is no escape from the facts no matter how many simulations you make. If you get any other result it just means you did your simulation wrong.

For the sake of rectifying what I believe is incorrect information for future viewers I'd like to make a few comments.

If you are capable of successfully healing an encounter, you almost certainly overhealed it. This is self evident. If you underhealed (by more than the total health pool of the raid) then you have wiped.

Casting more spells in a specific time period does not equate to more healing. The damage is limited in both its total and the rate it occurs. You can not heal damage before it happens. Even with absorbs you have done nothing until the damage arrives. If for the entire fight, the tank is getting meleeed for 100k every 2 seconds, you can not have an effective hps higher than 50k. No amount of haste, no throughput cooldown, no spell selection will change that. Your ehps is limited.

Given that the damage for any given time interval is limited, and given that you are capable of successfully completing the encounter, the conclusion can be drawn that either every time interval was overhealed or it was underhealed by less than the total health pool of the raid (in which case the healing might be caught up in the next interval)

In a time interval where the total healing exceeds the total damage taken, an increase in haste (without a change in spell selection) will result in one or more of the following: more overheal on your part, more overheal for your co-healers, less overall hps for co-healers. In any of those situations, the total healing for all healers for that time interval will be the same as it was before increasing haste. The only effect haste had was to create more overheal and to ninja-heal. If your spell selection changes, your efficiency may increase and your overheal may decrease, but the total ehps of the raid will not change. In a time interval where you are underhealing, an increase in haste will decrease the time spent "catching up" after the interval (decreasing hps for the next part), it will also increase ehps for that interval up until you reach the point where you are overhealing, after which it is no longer possible to increase ehps for that interval.

In conclusion, haste can increase your ehps, but like crit and mastery it can not increase your ehps beyond the limits of the encounter (as a whole or any time interval). Excess haste (or crit and mastery for that matter) will result in overheal unless changes are made to your spell selection.

Hamsda · 02/05/13, 6:04 AM

Originally Posted by Havoc12

Under borrowed time renew gets 4 ticks with 0 to 19% haste (raid buffed) or 5 ticks with 19% haste.
...
Glyphed Renew under borrowed time is automatically the best filler under conditions requiring high movement.

Your conclusion is slightly flawed because glyphed renew will not gain its 5th tick until a total of 50% haste is reached. To achieve this even a goblin under borrowed time needs close to 10k haste rating.

With my current values, 5.1 poh clearly outheals glyphed renew at 3 targets and 5.2 poh is slightly worse, but way better in terms of mana consumption even with the buffed mana value for pws (also disregarding the fact that poh might create additional bubbles on other targets depending on range).

But during high movement, pws + glyphed renew is very mana efficient and still good in terms of hps, even though not as "frontloaded" as short term pws spam would be. In a situation like Blade Lord P2, "rolling" pws + renew on the whole raid might even be one of the best things one can do (besides glyphed penance, pom and cascade).

• Hamlet · 02/05/13, 1:43 PM

Evangelism is now also going to buff heal Penance in the new PTR build, which I was in favor of--the heal and DPS versions will not be quite so lopsided now. The DPS version is still generally better.

A few other changes look scary, but just to head off complaints, nothing is really happening to Disc. Flash Heal for Shadow is coming back up a bit, so the new passive is 25% instead of 43%. Renew is being nerfed for Shadow also and added to the Disc/Holy passive. PWS seems to still have an erroneous tooltip.

Hamsda · 02/06/13, 4:21 AM

Since I do not have the PTR currently, does that still exclude the healing part of penance from stacking it? I guess we will be spamming solace on cooldown anyways, would just be another way to stack it and still get grace on the tank...

Still, with my current gear, which is pretty heavy on Int in terms of gemming (but I dont have HC sha touched weapon yet), the atonement version of penance barely outheals a 3-stack grace penance. That is nice because if you have to focus your heal e.g. on a tank you will not loose that much compared to the atonement heal.
Of course with better gear the better spellpower scaling on atonement penance will just make it stronger and stronger but its a nice quality of life change anyways.

Havoc12 · 02/06/13, 2:26 PM

Originally Posted by Hamsda

Your conclusion is slightly flawed because glyphed renew will not gain its 5th tick until a total of 50% haste is reached. To achieve this even a goblin under borrowed time needs close to 10k haste rating.

With my current values, 5.1 poh clearly outheals glyphed renew at 3 targets and 5.2 poh is slightly worse, but way better in terms of mana consumption even with the buffed mana value for pws (also disregarding the fact that poh might create additional bubbles on other targets depending on range).

But during high movement, pws + glyphed renew is very mana efficient and still good in terms of hps, even though not as "frontloaded" as short term pws spam would be. In a situation like Blade Lord P2, "rolling" pws + renew on the whole raid might even be one of the best things one can do (besides glyphed penance, pom and cascade).

Thank you for the correction I checked and they have indeed changed the behaviour of glyphed renew. If you have more than 19% haste then there is no point in glyphing renew, as glyphed renew produces less HPS. That means the HPS I predicted would be lower by 10% or 69252 HPS for 19% haste on three targets.

With a crit build on three targets PoH has 5% less HPS and 19% better HPM, Switching from inner fire to inner will results in PWS+Renew spam having 0.9% less HPS but only 2% lower HPM.

Even though you can expect renew to have higher overheal, I think that as a filler when you can't hit 4+ targets with PoH glyphed renew for a crit build and non-glyphed renew with 19% haste is better. Renew is better as a filler than smite, because it has roughly the same average HPS, but nearly double the HPS.

Renew ultimately is better at creating bubbles than PoH, because you get 4 hits over 8 seconds, meaning that there is a reasonable chance of a double crit with 23% crit, which can result in an aegis lasting longer than 15s. For high mobility fights it is much better to roll PWS+renew as a filler, than to stop and try to get PoHs off. I switched to spamming PWS+renew between holy fire and penance for example in the sha of fear normal platforms, while constantly moving to pick up balls and dodge boss hits, leaving the DPS more time to do their thing, instead of worrying about the balls. When there are no balls to pick I spam a few flashes for grace and the result is a full bar on everyone constantly instead of me trying to pick up balls and then chase everyone with flash. Penance and HF on CD pick up any slack.

Rolling PWS+glyphed renew with a crit build or PWS + non glyphed renew with high haste is a great filler for whenever you are moving, assuming the incoming damage is high enough and you don't have HF/penance or PoM on CD.

===========================================================================

Grace is still a priority everytime you are healing a tank. For example our tank on WotE hc takes 100-120k HPS spikes between devastating combos. If I let grace fall off then there is no way I can keep up without blowing a CD. With grace, I can pop spirit shell and archangel everytime and bomb the tank with 250k spirit shell gheals.

• Hamlet · 02/07/13, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Hamsda

Since I do not have the PTR currently, does that still exclude the healing part of penance from stacking it? I guess we will be spamming solace on cooldown anyways, would just be another way to stack it and still get grace on the tank...

Still, with my current gear, which is pretty heavy on Int in terms of gemming (but I dont have HC sha touched weapon yet), the atonement version of penance barely outheals a 3-stack grace penance. That is nice because if you have to focus your heal e.g. on a tank you will not loose that much compared to the atonement heal.
Of course with better gear the better spellpower scaling on atonement penance will just make it stronger and stronger but its a nice quality of life change anyways.

DPS Penance without Grace will be roughly on par with Heal Penance with Grace (so in other words, DPS Penance will still be way ahead as as way of healing a tank who already has Grace on him). The heal Penance buff will make it a lot more useful to cast on a tank who needs topping off (so Atonement wouldn't necessarily hit him) and who's not getting a Grace refresh from anything else.