Elitist Jerks Disc Priest - Mists of Pandaria

 02/07/13, 12:14 PM #286 Havoc12 King Hippo   Shaarra Night Elf Priest   Silvermoon (EU) If DPS spells scale as base1*(1+k1*spellpower) and heals scale as base2*(1+k2*spellpower) then you can expect that the equality point will be when base1-base2 = spellpower*(base2*k2 - base1*k1) => spellpower = (base1-base2)/(base2*k2 - base1*k1) Any factor that affects both (e.g. evangelism) will not affect the spellpower levels required for equality. But if a factor affects only one specifically then it needs to be multiplied into the base value in the above formula. Penance cast on a target does not behave in the same way as atonement. Each penance hit adds a grace stack so the first hit is 1 then second is 1.1 and the 3rd is 1.2. So penance cast on a non graced target is equal to three ticks of (1+1.1+1.2)/3 = 1.1. Thus penance cast on an ungraced target produces a buff of 10% for penance. Similarly when you don't have fully stacked evangelism the first cast of penance applies evangelism for the other two ticks, so the average tick is 0 1.026666667 1 1.066666667 2 1.106666667 3 1.146666667 4 1.186666667
 02/07/13, 2:07 PM #287 • Hamlet     Hamlet Tauren Druid   Mal'Ganis That's all correct. Really though the breakpoint is something everyone will have passed already--it's under 14000 spellpower before Grace/Evang/CoElements. If you're trying to heal a tank with Grace on him, that also doesn't change anything favoring one or the other, unless you really need to heal him right now but you think Atonement might go to someone else. This is a situation for heal Penance and it's a little more realistic now that the heal's not as weak. The other situation for heal Penance is when a tank doesn't have Grace but you really want to put it on him for the future. Again, it can happen, but often if a tank really needs healing you'll be hitting him things besides Penance that refresh Grace anyway. Basically DPS Penance is almost always more points of healing, but with the balance brought a little closer, it's easier to use heal Penance as a useful tool in a couple practical situations.
 02/07/13, 8:05 PM #288 Havoc12 King Hippo   Shaarra Night Elf Priest   Silvermoon (EU) If a person does not have grace and he is taking regular damage. It is almost always worth using a penance at him though, because its just a 13% difference at 30k spellpower. and it just takes 2 atonement heals in 15seconds to make up the difference. Even at very high spellpower the difference is no more than 22%, which means 3 atonement heals. We just killed will of the emperor hc tonight and it was really tough on the tank. 2 unmitigated back to back hits was a tank kill, so what I saw on my screen was tank takes a hit from 90% to 30%, 2 seconds later another hit and dead. Rather than keeping grace up on the tank through the devastating combo its best to stack grace near the end, because entering the phase between the devastating combos without grace = tank death. Last edited by Havoc12 : 02/07/13 at 8:13 PM.
 02/08/13, 3:49 AM #289 Hamsda Piston Honda     Hamsda Goblin Priest   Mannoroth (EU) That is of course right, but WoE, especially if you have to solo heal the tanks in 10hc, is one of the few encounters where you actually have to bomb the tanks with healing. With current gear levels it is way easier, though, so no real need to worry, especially if SS is ready (which it should for every other non dance phase). But during Sha hc progress I've found myself in situations where I had to use penance on the tank to specifically get his health up, because dds took hits from the masses of penetrating bolts and would take away healing from the tank. Patch 5.2 will make those kinds of situations more or less a dps loss only, which is quite nice. The break even point for penance dps vs heal is at 13942sp, and with a scaling difference of 144%sp the dps version does nearly 35k more healing even before penance for myself. That is quite a huge loss if you "have to" use the heal version. On a different note: I finally got a formula for the combinations of glyph and 2t15 for prayer of mending and was quite surprised HOW good the 2pc actually is. For my current gear it bumps poms hpet from 180k up to a whopping 220k (assuming all 5 charges are effective and not wasted, especially since the last one is the strongest), which is higher than everything I have except for L90 talents. Its hpm now also only get rivaled by L90 and offensive penance. I catch myself from time to time pretty much ignoring pom even during aoe like overwhelming corruption on protectors hc because simply alternating poh on my 2 10man groups is easier (and probably currently more hps) but with 5.2 pom will be incredible. There are only 10 types of people... those who understand binary and those who don't.
02/08/13, 7:36 AM   #290
Havoc12
King Hippo

Night Elf Priest

Silvermoon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Hamsda On a different note: I finally got a formula for the combinations of glyph and 2t15 for prayer of mending and was quite surprised HOW good the 2pc actually is.
I did the calculations a little earlier for unglyphed 2p set bonus PoM and whenever its usable its our highest HPS spell, until we get the 4 set. Glyphed binding heal is very close to it though.

Glyphing PoM is bad unless you want to use it frequently as an instant single target heal (e.g in pvp).

I think PoM should only be used when there is continuous damage

The overall formula for PoM is

base*(0.6*g + sum_i=0 to n-1 [(1+0.1*p)^i])*(1+crit*(2+mastery))

where sum_i=1 to n means Sum the formula in the brackets with i having values from 1 to n-1. n is the number of PoM hits, g is 0 if you dont have the glyph and 1 if you have it and p is 1 if you have the 2set bonus or 0 if you dont have it.

Latex is not working for me or I would make it nicer.

Using this formula its easy to get all the values for the 2nd factor in excel
```			2p	2p
jumps		g		g
0	1	1.6	1	1.6
1	2	2.6	2.1	2.7
2	3	3.6	3.31	3.91
3	4	4.6	4.641	5.241
4	5	4.6	6.1051	5.241```

 02/08/13, 7:46 AM #291 Hamsda Piston Honda     Hamsda Goblin Priest   Mannoroth (EU) I know the formula, just had to figure out a way to fit it into 1 cell in excel, so I could see it with my current values Glyphed PoM may have its uses on fights with heavy tank damage and occasional aoe, like Protectors HC p1, bouncing it off of the tank to the sha touched targets, but overall even there its probably better to not glyph it with p3 in mind. Haven't tested fights on the PTR, so I don't know if there is a fight where it would be a good idea, but in general the glyph really is rather bad. There are only 10 types of people... those who understand binary and those who don't.
 02/08/13, 10:06 AM #292 • Hamlet     Hamlet Tauren Druid   Mal'Ganis Something to keep in mind when theorycrafting PoM is that, at least last time I checked (couple weeks ago), it did 25% more healing than the tooltip indicates, for no reason I can discern. It's really quite a large amount of healing, and I imagine it's mostly used on cooldown (cooldown syncs up with Penance and Solace anyway, so you'll probably have an easy rhythm in 5.2).
 02/08/13, 10:17 AM #293 Hamsda Piston Honda     Hamsda Goblin Priest   Mannoroth (EU) That is the result of one of the first hotfixes during MoP. I recently checked the 5.1 tooltips and some have been updated, but some still have their pre-hotfix values (like pom and ds). But the hpet/hpm already include the 25% hotfix. Edit: found the hotfixes.. 12 Oct: 25% more healing for pom (tooltip not up2date) and poh (up2date) cascade 25% more damage and healing (up2date) mindsear 25% more damage (up2date) 29 Nov: 40% more damage and 133% more healing for ds (not up2date) Dont ask me why they updated some and others not when 5.1 came but those are the current values, tested multiple times. That buff also boosted ds ahead of every other spell in terms of hpm (except for holys 3min cds). Last edited by Hamsda : 02/08/13 at 10:24 AM. There are only 10 types of people... those who understand binary and those who don't.
 02/09/13, 2:46 PM #295 • Hamlet     Hamlet Tauren Druid   Mal'Ganis Can probably also PWS, Solace, PoM, instant, and then start Penance right before BT expires. Or alternatively Penance and two instants and then start a PoH if you were planning to use one anytime soon. Still I'm not convinced of the importance of min/maxing BT given that healers don't chaincast for the entirety of an encounter. Also, using PWS every 10s is awkward due to 12s Rapture and 13s Weakened Soul. You're not going to cram in an extra PWS just for the purpose of BT on your 10s cooldown instants. I expect you'll PoM/Solace/Penance something close to on cooldown, and PWS the tank every 13s Weakened Soul cooldown, more or less independently.
 02/11/13, 4:46 PM #296 Havoc12 King Hippo   Shaarra Night Elf Priest   Silvermoon (EU) If its a burst phase with the sky falling on the heads of your raid you need to do whatever it takes to produce maximum HPS and maximising borrowed time is a lot of extra HPS. If you have to cast a couple of PWS without rapture so be it.
 02/12/13, 11:14 AM #297 • Hamlet     Hamlet Tauren Druid   Mal'Ganis In the best case, a PWS eats one GCD and gives you back 6s (let's say 7s if you stretch a cast at the end of it) of 15% haste, which is worth at best about 1s. But that's only if you follow up every PWS with a little chain of carefully-sequenced instants. But when you're trying for "max HPS," you're not casting PWS or Solace anyway (you are still casting Penance and PoM, which is a bit of an improvement from previous design); you're basically powering out PoH just like you did before.
02/12/13, 2:43 PM   #298
Havoc12
King Hippo

Night Elf Priest

Silvermoon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Hamlet In the best case, a PWS eats one GCD and gives you back 6s (let's say 7s if you stretch a cast at the end of it) of 15% haste, which is worth at best about 1s. But that's only if you follow up every PWS with a little chain of carefully-sequenced instants. But when you're trying for "max HPS," you're not casting PWS or Solace anyway (you are still casting Penance and PoM, which is a bit of an improvement from previous design); you're basically powering out PoH just like you did before.
Nope, you are weaving PWS with penance, PoM, binding heal and as a last resort PoH, when you have nothing else. I already showed quite conclusively that weaving PWS raises your HPS quite significantly.

02/12/13, 4:18 PM   #299
Szeretlek
Piston Honda

Troll Priest

Термоштепсель (EU)
 Nope, you are weaving PWS with penance, PoM, binding heal and as a last resort PoH, when you have nothing else. I already showed quite conclusively that weaving PWS raises your HPS quite significantly.
On paper only.
That situation will occur so rarely (all cooldowns available after Rapture PWS and you need csat them all) that its not even viable to discuss any influence on hps.

 02/12/13, 4:37 PM #300 • Hamlet     Hamlet Tauren Druid   Mal'Ganis I did forget about Glyphed Binding Heal, although it's only really better if close to a full third of the healing you need to output is on yourself. If you're only getting two targets (target+smart), it's slightly less on-paper HPET than PoH, with slight advantage of only requiring two targets and being partially smart, and disadvantage of much higher mana burn. Not technically an issue if you're totally literal about "max HPS" but among casts that are close to tied otherwise, 2.5x higher mana usage rate isn't something to just ignore. I won't discount that sticking a PWS before a Penance/PoM/PoH sequence can be a raw HPS increase (albeit slight), since the PWS is "borrowing" around half its cast time from the upcoming casts. A few practical issues though: --You need a second target on which PWS is likely to be fully effective--10s is too often to cast on the tank. While that certainly happens a lot (seeing a person you can productively shield because of something that's about to happen to them), you're counting on it happening at exactly the moment you need. It's nice if it happens, for sure. --Casting a PWS every 10s actually a lot worse than casting one every 13s, because you lose a substantial amount of Rapture frequency and PWS casts on the tank (each now happens only every 20s). If you're using PWS enough for both, great, but that's a lot of PWS. The larger point is that I caution against a carefully-planned sequence of heal casts that maximizes utility of minor buffs the way a DPS class would (I've said the same thing a lot in regards to the Resto SotF talent, which I don't like much). Flexibility/reaction in healing is worth a lot, and during the most intense moments, if you commit to a 6 second long cast sequence you may be defeating the whole purpose of gaining a little more healing (as measured by the meters).

 Elitist Jerks Disc Priest - Mists of Pandaria

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