Disc Priest - Mists of Pandaria - Page 21

Havoc12 · 02/12/13, 9:22 PM

Originally Posted by Hamlet

The larger point is that I caution against a carefully-planned sequence of heal casts that maximizes utility of minor buffs the way a DPS class would (I've said the same thing a lot in regards to the Resto SotF talent, which I don't like much). Flexibility/reaction in healing is worth a lot, and during the most intense moments, if you commit to a 6 second long cast sequence you may be defeating the whole purpose of gaining a little more healing (as measured by the meters).

I am not advocating using poh every 10s. My point is that casting additional PWS to the ones you cast for rapture during a high damage phase just before you are about to cast penance and PoM however is a noticeable HPS increase and that you don't really want to be casting PoH much anymore, unless its with spirit shell. If non spirit shell PoH is a significant part of your HPS you are probably better off with holy.

The fights that disc will be competitive at will be fights that have alternating low damage and short spike damage. So you can atonement most of the time and spirit shell some of the spikes. For the rest you should have plenty of mana to burn. Fights requiring constant high throughput are very unlikely to be viable for disc.

Originally Posted by Szeretlek

On paper only.
That situation will occur so rarely (all cooldowns available after Rapture PWS and you need csat them all) that its not even viable to discuss any influence on hps.

An odd assertion. You have several BT benefiting spells: Solace, PoM, cascade/star, penance. Casting PWS when one or more is up and chaining them with penance under borrowed time in a high damage phase is a small HPS increase without overheal or a moderate to large HPS increase when overheal is all accounted for.

Casting a PWS just before the damage spike happens is already a pretty big gain in HPS.

Havoc12 · 02/13/13, 2:57 PM

I think its time to put borrowed time on a more quantitative basis. A good way to model it is to simply subtract the gain of time you get from borrowed time from the PWS cast time.

So lets see how much time you gain from casting a spell with cast time Tunder borrowed time

deltaT = T/(1+haste) - T/(1+haste)/1.15 = T/(1+haste)*0.15/1.15

The new cast time for PWS is thus 1.5/(1+haste)-deltaT = (1.5-T*0.15/1.15)/(1+haste)

Hence HPS_PWS = base*(1+mastery)*(1+haste)/[1.5 - 0.15/1.15*sum_i=0-n(Ti)], where sum_i=0-n is the sum over index i from 0 to n.

Lets see what happens when you chain penance + an instant + PoH under borrowed time

The new cast time for PWS becomes (1.5-0.15/1.15*(2+1.5+2.5)) = 0.717391304348. In other words it more than DOUBLES the HPS of PWS.

If you just chain penance + a PoH then the cast time becomes 0.913, which is a 64% increase in PWS HPS.

If you just cast PWS then a PoH the cast time becomes 1.173913043478, which is a 28% increase.

If you chain an instant and PoH the cast time becomes 0.978260869565, which is a 53% increase in PWS HPS.

You will almost always be able to chain PWS and an instant before casting PoH, which means unless you can get PoH to heal double what a PWS does, it will always be an HPS increase to do that.

Factoring in the fact that PWS has a lower overheal when used intelligently, then its dead obvious that this may be a considerable increase in HPS.

• Hamlet · 02/13/13, 4:11 PM

That math looks all correct. But, a 50-60% increase to PWS HPET leaves it on par or slightly behind PoH in raw healing, if you have high crit and low mastery (I didn't miss anything, right? PWS is still 187.1% before mastery?). So on a raw basis this is very marginal gain at best--even when your Penance/PoM is up you're adding an expensive spell for a little HPS gain. In practice, casting will actually be determined by seeing which is likely to be a more effective cast.

Havoc12 · 02/13/13, 6:03 PM

Originally Posted by Hamlet

That math looks all correct. But, a 50-60% increase to PWS HPET leaves it on par or slightly behind PoH in raw healing, if you have high crit and low mastery (I didn't miss anything, right? PWS is still 187.1% before mastery?). So on a raw basis this is very marginal gain at best--even when your Penance/PoM is up you're adding an expensive spell for a little HPS gain. In practice, casting will actually be determined by seeing which is likely to be a more effective cast.

With a penance and a pom the HPS of PWS more than doubles so its well above PoH and the gain is significant. Its only when you chain penance and PoH and the gain is minor.

Obviously if PWS is not going to be fully effective then its not worth casting it just for borrowed time and conversely if you can't expect PoH to be 100% effective, but you can be reasonably sure that PWS is absorbed then its definately worth using PWS and chaining as much as you can during that borrowed time.

In any high damage phase if the health bars are up momentarily its immediately worth casting PWS and chaining PoM/renews with it until the targets take damage again so you can use the borrowed time to cast a penance and PoH fast.

It turns out that for binding heal borrowed time is not worth it unless you can chain penance and an instant with it too.

All this is of course academic if the encounter allows you to just use spirit shell every burst and just atonement heal in between.

Jeges · 02/14/13, 9:45 AM

Subtracting BT haste gains from PW:S to calculate HPS only makes sense if the spells you're casting afterwards are the spells you should have cast anyway. For a silly example, if I cast PW:S and then Fortitude a few times, that doesn't make PW:S any higher HPS. For a less silly example, if I cast PW:S and then a few Renews, but I'd have been better off casting PoH a couple of times after PW:S, I gained HPS by stretching out BT, but I lost HPS by casting the wrong spells afterwards, and that loss doesn't show up if you try to analyze the HPS of PW:S in a vacuum. Granted, there are plenty of instants that are often the right thing to cast (Penance, Lvl90talent, PoM), and I certainly agree that BT is especially powerful when they all line up nicely after a PW:S. I'm just advocating a little care in interpretation - ideally by comparing the whole package of spells cast.

Havoc12 · 02/14/13, 2:12 PM

Originally Posted by Jeges

Subtracting BT haste gains from PW:S to calculate HPS only makes sense if the spells you're casting afterwards are the spells you should have cast anyway. For a silly example, if I cast PW:S and then Fortitude a few times, that doesn't make PW:S any higher HPS. For a less silly example, if I cast PW:S and then a few Renews, but I'd have been better off casting PoH a couple of times after PW:S, I gained HPS by stretching out BT, but I lost HPS by casting the wrong spells afterwards, and that loss doesn't show up if you try to analyze the HPS of PW:S in a vacuum. Granted, there are plenty of instants that are often the right thing to cast (Penance, Lvl90talent, PoM), and I certainly agree that BT is especially powerful when they all line up nicely after a PW:S. I'm just advocating a little care in interpretation - ideally by comparing the whole package of spells cast.

Actually the calculation accurately determines the HPS contribution of borrowed time based on what you did cast, which is what it was meant to do. The conclusion is irrespective of your choice of spells. Whether you cast renews or PoM or PoH you can always think of BT as increasing the HPS of PWS in the same way. The equation was meant to tell you without whether casting PWS for borrowed time in a given spell sequence will be an HPS gain without explicitly calculating the overall HPS. Obviously it can also be used to calculate the overall HPS of a whole spell sequence by simply substituting the cast time of PWS with the BT modified cast time. I.e. you can just add a PWS to the total healing and add the modified cast time to the total time.

The spell sequence factor is already taken into account, because all the major instants mentioned are higher priority than PoH. Notice that no one said that the spells that should be cast should change, just that its better to try and line an the instants and penance into borrowed time.

If you know you are about to cast penance and a string of instants then assuming you have a good target to use PWS on, its a very good idea to use that PWS as it can give you a nice HPS buff.

===========================================================================

Originally Posted by Blizzard

Courageous Primal Diamond – 1.00 RealPPM on attempting helpful spell. No ICD.

So 1 spell per minute is free with the new metagem. With an average spell cost of 9k that should be equivalent to 750 mp5. About the same as 720 spirit, which is pretty powerful. If you track it and try to use it up with an expensive spell, it can be very powerful.

Polopretress · 02/15/13, 8:06 AM

All the maths have to be redo because mastery effect change a lot and crit will scale also on PWS

1) Divine Aegis now works differently. It causes any critical heal to proc a bubble for 100% of the heal instead of doubling the heal. In other words, a crit for Holy is a 200% heal. A crit for Disc is a 100% heal + a 100% bubble. The bubble however benefits from mastery, so it's more likely a 100% heal + a 130% bubble.
2) Power Word: Shield can now crit for Discipline.
3) Mastery now boosts shields by 1.6% per point (down from 2.5% per point) but now also increases all healing by 0.8% per point.

Means that basicaly with for example 30% crit and 20 mastery points (value are approximative value):

- Nerf around 42% on the heal part of a critical heal (all heal are affected except PWS)
- Up around 16% on the heal part of a non critical heal (all heal are affected except PWS)
- Aegis part is quite unchanged.
- PWS is nerf by 36% but can crit and make aegis

A speed/approximative calculation give me with 30% crit and 20 mastery point :
- A little nerf of 10.7% on the global heal. (nerf increasing if crit increases, nerf decreasing if mastery increases)
- Crit is not any more a RNG stat on Heal part. (great !)
- Aegis part is unchanged
- PWS is up by 23% (assuming that a critical PWS creates an Aegis not a double PWS ==> double effect of mastery)

Major result is that mastery and critical stat are now good stat (maybe equivalent)
Mastery effect on each cast
Critical effect on every spells and less RNG

Do you confirm ?
(sorry, i did not verify my quick calculation , i probably made some little mistakes)

• Hamlet · 02/15/13, 10:29 AM

Quick spreadsheet update in the other thread. Although I just realized after reading your post that it's going to overestimate PWS a bit, will have to fix later.

Also don't know exactly how crit meta will affect things. Currently assuming it will work in the most consistent way and increase both the heal part of the crit heal by 3%, and the shield by 3%.

Heals now scale like H*(1+M/2)*(1+C*(2+M)). So there's a small quadratic component to mastery, might be interesting to check back on that more later. (M is lazily used here to mean units of 1.6% mastery)

For rough estimate of overall effect, Aegis size is mostly the same as before (slightly increased due to multiplicative effect I just mentioned). The "heal" part of each is always 1+M/2, instead of the previous: 1 on non-crits, 2 on crits. So when M/2 is around the same as C (converting back to real numbers, when the 0.8*mastery = crit%), this change is roughly neutral. So it looks like a nerf if you're looking at the crit-stacked gear we were starting to plan around for 5.2, but that's basically the whole point. In balanced gear the change is pretty neutral.

kouby · 02/15/13, 10:33 AM

Even though the ratio isn't wonderful, I guess this makes mastery the most "reliable" of the three stats again, even if it's only for the +heal part?

Just wondering about the PWS crit part, does the PWS get double value? or do we get a DA with the basic PWS?

And as for the meta crit discussion, there was a post about it too on the mmo-champ recap:

Will the mastery provide a straight up boost to healing too or is it still a 20% buff to absorbs + x% per point of master and y% boost to your healing?
The way mastery works for everyone is there is a base amount so that you benefit even with no mastery gear. We used to call it 8 "points" but we don't use that terminology anymore. for Disc, the base amount is +12.8% to absorbs and +6.4% to heals. A character with 8824 mastery would have +36.33% to absorbs and +18.16% to heals. The 3000 mastery raid buff would bump that up to +44.33% to absorbs and +22.16% to heals. Also note that the metagem which increases the size of your crits still works.

If you had all of the above mastery and the crit gem and you cast a heal for 100K, it would heal for 122K, or if it crit, it would heal for 126K and proc a 182K absorb from Divine Aegis.

edit: Oh and if the +heal part of the new mastery affects atonement healing, that'll be a nice step towards making all secondary stats remotely useful for the whole toolkit, rather nicely done imo.

• Hamlet · 02/15/13, 10:46 AM

Oh whoops, didn't notice the meta gem detail when I read it. Yup, so 3% to base heal on crits, and corresponding 3% to Aegis. So just have to check how PWS works.

Polopretress · 02/15/13, 12:33 PM

I do not think that meta +3%crit is still a good choice since this modification and the modification of PW:Solace
Anyway, legendary meta will have to be rushed.

If you need 65/70% of mastery to make this change neutral, i am afraid that mastery would not be in suffisant quantity on the gear. (i have seen a lot of equipement with haste and critical)

The point that is very interresting in this new approach is that the capability of heal part and absorb part are now more independant due to the new mechanism of mastery.
example :
If disc is not godd on heal part ==> increase from 0.8% to 0.9% or 1%
If disc is not strong enough on absorb part ==> increase from 1.6% to 1.7% or 1.8%

kouby · 02/15/13, 12:38 PM

Do we know if legendary meta can proc off of smite at this point?

Polopretress · 02/15/13, 12:51 PM

Might be but not sure since attonement has some special behaviors.

royalpoet · 02/15/13, 2:13 PM

Originally Posted by kouby

Do we know if legendary meta can proc off of smite at this point?

No, it won't, according to Ghostcrawler:

For Disc priests, will Atonement count as 'helpful spell'? In cata this was the case for some trinkets early on, but not in DS.

Currently, no, but since it’s RPPM, any single heal or periodic tick every 10 sec will give you the full proc frequency. A single Renew out, or a PW:S cast every 10 sec, etc.

Source

Polopretress · 02/15/13, 5:15 PM

Sorry,
I do not understand the answer of GC.
(All the sentence after "but")

Does he mean that the ICD of the meta is 10 sec with 100% of chance to proc and then, as we use anothers spells by portion of 10sec, the meta will proc anyway on its full uptime ?