Disc Priest - Mists of Pandaria - Page 7

kouby · 12/19/12, 8:31 PM

Originally Posted by Udain

Just as an aside on the issue of grouping and PoH - do try gridstatuspriestaoe addon - its a bit old but still works as long as your libmapdata addon is up to date.

VuhDo has a function called aoe advice that does something very similar as well. Works for all aoe heals for all classes as well (very useful for the shamy's chain heal).

kouby · 12/22/12, 7:02 AM

So.

Power Word: Solace replaces Holy Fire. It deals the same damage and interacts with other spells and abilities in the same manner, but is instant, costs no mana, and restores 1% of maximum mana on each cast.
Spirit Shell no longer benefits from Mastery, and now properly includes the benefits of Divine Aegis and critical effect chance.
Rapture now provides mana equal to 250% (was 200%) of the Priest's Spirit, but no longer benefits from Spirit provided by short duration bonuses.

What does the mastery change do to our stat priority?
Is PW:Solace a must have under this form or simply unworkable with a 10sec cooldown?

Polopretress · 12/22/12, 7:31 AM

Modification of SS regarding mastery effect will probably have the consequance that Mastery will not be a good stat anymore.
And critical will have to be rush.
But we need to define the formula to conclude.

Someone has idea ?

For Solace, i think it is good for player who plays a lot with aggresive spells like penance/smite/Solace on underground task even if the the same cd of 10sec is applied.

I had no idea a thing like this existed. I would have loved this when I used to do 25mans. In 10mans it's easier to yell at people to stay close together, but this will still be useful as there are still some fights where it's hard to stay grouped up enough. Thanks

hé , this is a must have when you use GRID since a long time !
you must only accept to run outdated addon to be able to run it.

Numiro · 12/22/12, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by kouby

What does the mastery change do to our stat priority?
Is PW:Solace a must have under this form or simply unworkable with a 10sec cooldown?

i'd like to start out by saying hello, I've been posting as a resto druid earlier but I've finally got my priest to cap so I've decided to join you guys over here aswell!

I did the math some days ago and IIRC it takes 21 casts of solace to replace the mindbender, that's roughly 33 seconds for me, including latency. To replace this you'd have 14,7 casts of the new ability, that's 169 seconds or 2 minutes and 49 seconds if used pretty much on cooldown (Not quite sure how cooldowns calculate with latency and so on, but 11,5 seconds seems reasonable)

To clarify: 21 casts of solace in a 3 minute period, which means it's a net gain to use 5.2 solace on cooldown compared to mindbender.

If you use it on CD and you have a spare GCD every 10 seconds you'll see a net gain out of it, if else you'd want mindbender. Judging by the very little time I've spent as a disc priest I'd dare say that the GCD is always going to be avaible so I'll keep running solace even after the patch hits us.

I'm really sad about the mastery change, going from a resto druid to a priest was a let down just because secondary stats were so weak, compare that to a resto druid that the two strongest things on it is haste and mastery. Hopefully they'll change it in some other way but if not then mastery would probably be terrible.

What do you guys think about haste + solace in the 5.1? It does give more mana back and you're able to react faster even though your spirit shell is going to be weaker.

Jeges · 12/22/12, 1:04 PM

I wanted to include calculations that would accommodate things like overheal percentage, wasted absorbs, effective crit multiplier, etc... The analytical solutions started getting messy enough that they weren't going to help anyone. So I made a spreadsheet, and am simply reporting a few highlights.

For a random recent Zor'lok fight, I had 10% of my healing from PW:S, 19% from Spirit Shell, 8% from Prayer of Healing, and 49% from other spells (largely Atonement, Cascade, PoM, and FH), plus 14% Divine Aegis (which came from PoH and "other spells"). If I had 1% higher crit, I would have healed/absorbed 1.32% more damage. With 2.5% higher Mastery, I would have healed/absorbed 0.58% more damage. This is based of critting 17% of the time, with 48% Mastery, 30% overheal on heals and 27% overheal on absorbs.

On Will of the Emperor (trying to pick a fight favorable to Mastery), with 16% overheal on absorbs, 39% overheal on heals, critting 16% of the time, 48% Mastery, 19% PW:S, 4% PoH, 17% SS, 47% other spells, 13% DA... 1% more Crit would have gained 1.39% more healing, 2.5% more Mastery would have gained 0.71% more healing.

I would have had to raise my PW:S use up to 38% of my healing done (at the expense of other spells) in order for Mastery to break even with Crit. Alternatively, I could have reforged/geared to have no Mastery whatsoever, and 35% crit (costing additionally about 11% Haste) and at that point Crit and Mastery would have been equally valuable.

So, a tentative rule of thumb: Get as much Haste as makes you comfortable. Then, stack Crit until you're at about 35% buffed. Then, increase Crit and Mastery in tandem, 1% Crit for every 2.5% Mastery. Obviously, exigencies of the encounter will modulate this.

Gloryrider · 12/22/12, 1:18 PM

This might sound like a stupid question, but what exactly is meant with "interacts properly with divine aegis and crit"?
In the best case scenario you'd get both divine aegis and spirit shell stacks from doing PoH under the SS buff, i'm not that optimistic about it though. Very sceptical about these changes. Except the solace change, that's going to be awesome for disc

Barlow · 12/22/12, 3:30 PM

Originally Posted by Havoc12

Comparing world of logs parses is nonsensical. That depends entirely on what the other healers are doing and how your raid is organised. You can't really compare apples with oranges. Healers from different raids with different healing teams and different tactics are just not comparable.

I beg to differ. If parses, especially a huge amount of parses "are nonsesical" that what's the point of this discussion? Though a SINGLE high HpS parse has no value whatsoever. Raidbots (e.g. Elegon 25H - DPS Bot - RaidBots - Web Tools for WoW Nerds) lets you have a look at the median of the top 100 healers (or of all parses, whatever you prefer).

Talking about Elegon HC 10 Man - it's really not an extremely heal intense encounter up to the burn phase. Atobement shines in p1 and p2 and while SpS might not benefit from the Heal Buff it has a compareable HpS to DH anyways plus zero overhealing in that phase. The median of 25 and 10 HC Elegon logs show not the slightest indication whatsoever that Holy would be significantly stronger. Rather the opposite would be true.

For Garalon: It's a huge miscoception that Discipline would (only) be about creating Absorbs mitigating damage spikes. While this is possible - and strong Spirit Shell AND PoH provide a HUGE HpS under consistent damage - especially if you can stack Evangelism occasionally or even regularly.

The 40Y Atonement works great in that fight when pheromone stacks are low. Furthermore it's not true, that Garalon HC in general involves "a lot of movement" if you are a healer. Unless in your strategy you will either kite or be assigned to kite healing. For me mostly the GCDs of PoM, Cascad and PW:S are enough to move.

Logs verify that in both 10 Man and 25 Man HC Garalon Disc is at least as strong as holy, even outperforming holy by a huge margin in 25.

Polopretress · 12/24/12, 7:35 AM

The way I read the Spirit Shell change is that it will now heal as base_heal*(1+2C + CM).

Strange !

I would maybe predict base_heal*(1+C)*(1.5+0.5M) = base-heal *(1.5 + 1.5c + 1.25m + 1.25cm)
(same as poh but only in absorb)

or base_heal*(1+C)*1.5 if mastery does not appear anymore in the SS formula.

Jeges · 12/24/12, 1:37 PM

My figuring for Spirit Shell numbers:
Expected heal is H(1-C) [non-crit heal times chance of not getting a crit] + 2H*C*(1+0.5*(1+M)) [chance of getting a crit times crit heal value, taking mastery into account]

This works out to H*(1+2C+CM).

Havoc12 · 12/24/12, 7:58 PM

Originally Posted by Perkeyone

The buffs are multiplicative, not additive.

I wasnt advocating the use of spirit shell or pws there. I was talking about atonement in the 3rd phase. And the up time on TOF depends on how often you heal targets below 20% AND how often you attack things below 20%. You can maintain very high uptime on the buff through each phase via adds.

1 penance every 6-10 seconds.

Are you sure about that? It does not seem that way to me. Please post a log with your highest atonement heal in p3 and we can easily determine if that is the case. I have yet to see any log where penance ticks for anything the values you claim. Even with 12 stacks and all buffs I have not seen a penance hit for anywhere near 10 times its normal value.

Here is some penance hits from this log: Healing done - 14-11 22:47 - After Hours - World of Logs

[00:20:44.489] Shaarra casts Penance
[00:20:44.489] Shaarra gains Evangelism from Shaarra
[00:20:45.085] Shaarra Penance Elegon 78346
[00:20:45.156] Shaarra casts Penance
[00:20:45.628] Shaarra Atonement Zadenna +117519
[00:20:45.833] Shaarra Penance Elegon 81714
[00:20:45.868] Shaarra casts Penance
[00:20:46.392] Shaarra Atonement Es�*uol +122571
[00:20:46.613] Shaarra Penance Elegon 81737
[00:20:46.791] Shaarra gains Evangelism (2) from Shaarra
[00:20:47.188] Shaarra Atonement Nylaki +131889

Here is it is a little later with an int trinket proc and archangel

[00:20:52.265] Shaarra's Evangelism fades from Shaarra
[00:20:52.906] Shaarra Atonement Papernite +4779
[00:20:53.648] Shaarra Atonement Litledevil +4777
[00:20:54.087] Shaarra Atonement Zadenna +0 (O: 4780)
[00:21:19.012] Shaarra gains Evangelism from Shaarra
[00:21:19.356] Shaarra Atonement Mouninja +73374 (O: 63297)
[00:21:19.496] Shaarra casts Penance
[00:21:19.496] Shaarra gains Evangelism (2) from Shaarra
[00:21:19.871] Shaarra Penance Elegon 88655
[00:21:20.182] Shaarra Atonement Papernite +3984
[00:21:20.316] Shaarra Atonement Shaarra +66491
[00:21:20.370] Shaarra casts Penance
[00:21:20.588] Shaarra Atonement Bilanx +3984
[00:21:20.699] Shaarra Penance Elegon 100407
[00:21:20.924] Shaarra casts Penance
[00:21:21.306] Shaarra Penance Elegon 100296
[00:21:21.383] Shaarra Atonement Põntos +84637 (O: 65973)
[00:21:21.383] Shaarra Atonement Põntos +0 (O: 3982)
[00:21:21.838] Shaarra Atonement Zadenna +93011 (O: 57433)

150k biggest heal with 1 evangelism stack.

Even applying ToF and the additional evangelism stacks it is not going to exceed 180k. With the trinket penance ticks for 30k. So its a far cry from the supposed 1000% increase in healing. It certainly does not look as though it is multiplicative either.

Now look at PoH

[00:20:55.512] Shaarra begins to cast Prayer of Healing
[00:20:55.690] Shaarra Prayer of Healing Elooss +*35975* (O: 80974)
[00:20:55.690] Shaarra Prayer of Healing Mouninja +*51856* (O: 66233)
[00:20:55.690] Shaarra Prayer of Healing Nerad +*23680* (O: 105062)
[00:20:55.705] Shaarra Prayer of Healing Mindbender +*0* (O: 116285)
[00:20:55.705] Shaarra Prayer of Healing Iskarala +*19646* (O: 97068)
[00:20:57.456] Shaarra begins to cast Prayer of Healing
[00:20:59.652] Shaarra Prayer of Healing Bõllex +60331
[00:20:59.652] Shaarra Prayer of Healing Kérberos +36194 (O: 24386)
[00:20:59.652] Shaarra Prayer of Healing Dantìna +60599
[00:20:59.652] Shaarra Prayer of Healing Absentiz +26987 (O: 33830)
[00:20:59.652] Shaarra Prayer of Healing Goulik +0 (O: 60310)

60k per target non crit and that applies with 58% mastery 107% of the heal. So 120k per target non crit.

It is true that you can maintain a relatively high uptime on protectors and stars, but then again that is a problem for disc, since you have very tight windows in this fight.

You will only get 1 penance with the full 5 evangelism stacks and the archangel buff every archangel. With the t4 set you might get two.

In any case you are forgetting that archangel ToF and ToT also apply to your other heals. It is only the damage buffs that apply exclusively to atonement. ToF and ToT apply to the holy spells and now holy has 25% increase in healing from chakra. PoH from holy is 80k per target non crit.

====================================================================================

Originally Posted by Barlow

I beg to differ. If parses, especially a huge amount of parses "are nonsesical" that what's the point of this discussion?

SpS might not benefit from the Heal Buff it has a compareable HpS to DH anyways plus zero overhealing in that phase. The median of 25 and 10 HC Elegon logs show not the slightest indication whatsoever that Holy would be significantly stronger. Rather the opposite would be true.

For Garalon: It's a huge miscoception....

The 40Y Atonement works great in that fight when pheromone stacks are low. Furthermore it's not true, that Garalon HC in general involves "a lot of movement" if you are a healer.

Logs verify that in both 10 Man and 25 Man HC Garalon Disc is at least as strong as holy, even outperforming holy by a huge margin in 25.

This works for DPS but not for healers. Different guilds with different healing tactics and assignments can result in dramatically different numbers. Taking the median assumes that this is enough to eliminate trends, but that is not a reasonable assumption, since each spec has different strengths and thus potentially might be consistently given a different assignment.

The best way to compare the two specs is for the same person to try both specs in the same raid composition and the best way to decide which spec is strongest is to consider which one is the most useful in those moments when healing is challenging.

I am surprised you think that SpS is comparable HPS with DH. SpS in that phase is an automatic HPS loss even for disc. The reason should be self evident to you. PoH spam from both disc and holy produces better HPS even with the overhealing. DH/tranq and healing tide all produce dramatically higher HPS in this phase than anything disc has available.

On garalon movement depends entirely on your raid positioning, composition and kiters. If you have a mixed ranged/melee group and a mixed melee/tank group and a ranged group with all the kiters together, you will struggle to hit 5 targets with PoH.

The main damage on garalon is the aura, not the crushes. The crushes are really of little consequence. The key is keeping raid health high through the high pheromone stacks and disc is simply less helpful in this respect. Although they produce roughly the same healing right now, holy is more adept at healing the things in this encounter that may wipe a raid that just started.

To be honest I don't see why people this discussion is still going. It is not a really complicated subject that merits detailed analysis. I personally find that holy is better suited to healing garalon and elegon normal and I strongly recommend using holy over disc to any raid that is having healing trouble downing garalon. You of course disagree and there is no simple way for us to resolve this in a consistent quantitative manner. For raid teams who have garalon on farm this is a non issue.

In my hands Holy has an advantaged in dealing with the challenges presented in these two encounters (normal garalon and elegon), even if in terms of raw numbers the two specs can be very close

================================================================================

The new change to spirit shell is a humongous nerf to disc tank healing, and a small but noticeable nerf to PoH spam. I really don't understand what blizzard is thinking with this. They are going back to the "failed" convert healing to absorb model....

Perkeyone · 12/24/12, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by Havoc12

Are you sure about that? It does not seem that way to me. Please post a log with your highest atonement heal in p3 and we can easily determine if that is the case. I have yet to see any log where penance ticks for anything the values you claim. Even with 12 stacks and all buffs I have not seen a penance hit for anywhere near 10 times its normal value.

Here is some penance hits from this log: Healing done - 14-11 22:47 - After Hours - World of Logs

[00:20:44.489] Shaarra casts Penance
[00:20:44.489] Shaarra gains Evangelism from Shaarra
[00:20:45.085] Shaarra Penance Elegon 78346
[00:20:45.156] Shaarra casts Penance
[00:20:45.628] Shaarra Atonement Zadenna +117519
[00:20:45.833] Shaarra Penance Elegon 81714
[00:20:45.868] Shaarra casts Penance
[00:20:46.392] Shaarra Atonement Es�*uol +122571
[00:20:46.613] Shaarra Penance Elegon 81737
[00:20:46.791] Shaarra gains Evangelism (2) from Shaarra
[00:20:47.188] Shaarra Atonement Nylaki +131889

Here is it is a little later with an int trinket proc and archangel

[00:20:52.265] Shaarra's Evangelism fades from Shaarra
[00:20:52.906] Shaarra Atonement Papernite +4779
[00:20:53.648] Shaarra Atonement Litledevil +4777
[00:20:54.087] Shaarra Atonement Zadenna +0 (O: 4780)
[00:21:19.012] Shaarra gains Evangelism from Shaarra
[00:21:19.356] Shaarra Atonement Mouninja +73374 (O: 63297)
[00:21:19.496] Shaarra casts Penance
[00:21:19.496] Shaarra gains Evangelism (2) from Shaarra
[00:21:19.871] Shaarra Penance Elegon 88655
[00:21:20.182] Shaarra Atonement Papernite +3984
[00:21:20.316] Shaarra Atonement Shaarra +66491
[00:21:20.370] Shaarra casts Penance
[00:21:20.588] Shaarra Atonement Bilanx +3984
[00:21:20.699] Shaarra Penance Elegon 100407
[00:21:20.924] Shaarra casts Penance
[00:21:21.306] Shaarra Penance Elegon 100296
[00:21:21.383] Shaarra Atonement Põntos +84637 (O: 65973)
[00:21:21.383] Shaarra Atonement Põntos +0 (O: 3982)
[00:21:21.838] Shaarra Atonement Zadenna +93011 (O: 57433)

150k biggest heal with 1 evangelism stack.

Even applying ToF and the additional evangelism stacks it is not going to exceed 180k. With the trinket penance ticks for 30k. So its a far cry from the supposed 1000% increase in healing. It certainly does not look as though it is multiplicative either.

One small correction, i was using the old 8% instead of the current 5% spell damage buff, not a huge difference but just letting you know. Anyways your penance is doing exactly the amount expected. 940 to 1061 (+ 103.7% of SpellPower) Ill guess you have 25k in your pve gear with buffs and flask, maybe thats low, but this should be close enough. Under normal conditions your penance would tick for 26k-ish, not pulling out the calculator for this. So Looking at the table I made, lets see how much it should damage for and atonement heal for with say 10 stacks on the boss.

TOT, COE               |  1.62  |  2.43
TOT, COE, AA           |  1.62  |  3.04
10DP, TOT, COE         |  3.24  |  4.86
10DP, TOT, COE, AA     |  3.24  |  6.08

So your penance should be damaging 3.24 times normal and the healing component should be 4.86 times the normal damage. Going back to the 26k estimate I made earlier, we should see hits for around 84k and the heal should be for about 126k. So I'm only off by 5%, which is partly because of the old value for Curse of elements, and partly because I dont know your exact spell power. A 1000% heal would only be possible if you had ALL the buffs rolling and more stacks on the boss. The second part you posted doesnt show anywhere that you have archangel, and looking at the numbers it would seem you dont. The time stamps for the atonement are 25 seconds after the part where your evangelism fades.

Idk if this will help Log query - 12-12 21:50 - Celestial Rebirth - World of Logs

Udain · 12/25/12, 1:43 PM

"On garalon movement depends entirely on your raid positioning, composition and kiters. If you have a mixed ranged/melee group and a mixed melee/tank group and a ranged group with all the kiters together, you will struggle to hit 5 targets with PoH. "

Exactly my point from earlier, and I agree with my fellow healer from sivermoon - this discussion is somewhat a moot point as reality is that the spec, casts etc etc are not significant in the face of the difference tactics and group movement deployed in this ( and frankly many other) fight(s)

I use disc - simply because my ranged and melee control and move roughly as groups - if yours dont I would go holy as well. Healing the aura - yes disc is less effective at direct healing - But - I would argue again that disc working in 25 man with other healers is effective just because I have great healers at my back delivering hots and quick healing MY role is mitigation and using effective addons and tactics I am able to deliver that - with them - as a team.

Please this is a rather pointless argument - I would be much more interested if someone could explain the text for 5.2 re the changes to disc - in particular the rather odd statement about aegis working with SS as "intended" - can anyone illuminate us ?

I will probably be doing PTR with my guild - but any opening feedback would be useful

Polopretress · 12/25/12, 3:01 PM

My figuring for Spirit Shell numbers:
Expected heal is H(1-C) [non-crit heal times chance of not getting a crit] + 2H*C*(1+0.5*(1+M)) [chance of getting a crit times crit heal value, taking mastery into account]

This works out to H*(1+2C+CM).

your expectation : heal is H(1-C) + 2H*C*(1+0.5*(1+M))
it means that you think that sysmatic aegis on non critical PoH has been removed from SS ?

It can be true but i would be surprised that SS formula integrates a new exception compare to the spell PoH and that its behavior will be same as a normal heal.
I would keep a single aegis to non-crit heal or remove definitively mastery effect.

In any combinaison, it is a serious nerf of SS (around 20%/25% depending on C or M value)

Jeges · 12/26/12, 6:01 PM

Fair point - there's no indication that Spirit Shell would exclude non-crit DA from PoH. This leaves non-PoH SS (typically not a significant factor in most fights) as H*(1+2C+CM), and PoH SS as H(1+C)(1.5+0.5M) = H(1.5 + 1.5C + 0.5M + 0.5CM) - in other words, of course, exactly the same expected value as without SS.

Polopretress · 12/27/12, 4:47 AM

ok but in this case, i do not understand the comment of the patch note "Spirit Shell no longer benefits from Mastery"

In that case, maybe, we can also have H*(1+C)*1.5
SS nerf of 1 - 1.5/(1.3*(1+M)) = 23% with Mastery=50%

If it is confirmed , i do not understand why they will apply this change because mastery will be a stat that all disc will try to remove since it is already a poor stat for the others spells except PWS.