Caillech

Unfortunately, you leave yourself quite vulnerable in Arena with useless threat reduction talents instead of things like Martyrdom and Improved Mana Burn. There are plenty of dailies to do, and you could farm your cloth CD's (if you have tailoring) once a week for that 200g. When you have a free +Hit talent, that leaves more room for stacking +DMG with your gear and enchants.

To get that Silence, you waste 3 talent points on Improved Psychic Scream > Silence. That could be better used on Focused Mind, Meditation, Shadow Power. Feel free to check out my armory link in my profile for a comparison, I'm currently raid geared and spec'd. If you are too poor to afford respec's, then how will you afford flasks, food and other raid goodies to boost your damage?

http://www.dkpsigs.com/sigs/Spirestone/35234.jpg

 

Yrael24

Before I reply I just wanna say thanks for the advice...I am currently farming both badges and buying blessings cards (3 to go!) but as I went from holy to shadow about 2 months ago I had spent most of my badges that I had collected on holy stuff ><

I have meditation and shadow power as well as Martyrdom so I know I am not at 100% for both pvp and arena but I would rather spend my my money on said consumables for raids as I raid 5 nights a week. If that dagger ever drops from Malchezaar I know I will get an excellent boost to my +dmg with the badges OH but I have a few things to work on in terms of gear at this moment in time.

I will give a pure PvE spec a try next time we are on Vashj and see if it makes a big difference to my dps

 

deadjon

So, on the topic of trinkets I've been trying to determine which trinket(s) are best.

Granted I know that a lot of fights are situational and sometimes you'll want some mana regen, other times you need to use your PvP trinket, and for S&Gs I'll rock the Rocket Launcher (Engineering for the win?)

Where does the [Ashtongue Talisman of Acumen] stack up (I just got mine last night)? Has anyone done any theory crafting on the uptime on single targets?

ShadowPriest.com reports the following info:

#1? [Hex Shrunken Head] - Zul'Aman -- 85.39
#2 [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] - Ace-Eight of Blessings -- 78.7
#3 [The Skull of Gul'dan] - Illidan, Black Temple -- 68.1
#4 [Icon of the Silver Crescent] - 41 Badge of Justice -- 66.8
#5 [Ashtongue Talisman of Acumen] - Ashtongue Deathsworn, Exalted -- 61.1

The flat +80dmg on the darkmoon card currently stomps all trinkets in the game? The skull is most likely going to our mages & destro locks first, so I'll prolly see one of those right about the time Sunwell is released. If they don't nerf the Hex Head, that's going to be the new top trinket?

I guess me question / topic for discussion is which trinkets do you use? Why and when?

I'll start -

I always wear my [Icon of the Silver Crescent] except in the Arena. Accompanying that trinket I now wear [Ashtongue Talisman of Acumen] the majority of the time, and I've been rather happy with it's uptime (but not nearly as ownage as the mage version...) On long fights I still break out the old faithful [Mark of Defiance] and the mana returns can be pretty nice (add a shammie and I'm gtg for very, very long fights.) For Archimode / Rage / Arena I use the [Medallion of the Horde](and [Timelapse Shard] + pvp for Arena) I also have the fun little engineering trinkets (I know, shadow priest engineer, wtf?) but no need to link all those.

How about you'all?

 

Caillech

I'm working on my Blessings Deck, I cannot find cards Five and Six for the life of me. Currently I use [Quagmirran's Eye] and [Icon of the Silver Crescent]. Once I do get my [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] it will be swapped in and out with Quag's Eye.

The card wouldn't do well on trash or add duty (you should rarely be on add duty as spriest anyways) since you'll never get more than 3-4 buffs before the mob is dead. I'll use it on bosses and longer fights when I know I'll benefit from the stacked 80 damage. Once Zul'Aman rolls out, I will try to replace my Icon with the [Hex Shrunken Head]. I prefer having one passive trinket and one "on use" one which is macro'd into Shadow Word: Death, because a Mind Blast is usually the next spell followed by either Mind Flay or refreshing of Pain or VT.

That Ashtongue trinket looks amazing, granted you keep Pain up 100% of the time, you could see some serious damage boosts when it procs. For Arena I use the [Medallion of the Alliance] + Quagmirran's Eye until I get the [Timelapse Shard]

http://www.dkpsigs.com/sigs/Spirestone/35234.jpg

 

deadjon

Well, VT and SW:P are numbers 1 & 2 on my priority list, so they're up 100%.

I didn't get a shammie last night in BT, but I was seeing 4200+ Mind Blast crits on IC (The Pally) when I popped the trinket and my BT trinket buff was up.

I sorta wish I had used my mark tho... 1 bad flame strike on my mana fiend and I was really hurting...

 

Caligula

I use [Icon of the Silver Crescent] on everything currently. At the moment it's the most reliable source of damage. That will be replaced with [Hex Shrunken Head] next patch.

The [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] is good on fights where you are constantly casting but if there are breaks it quickly starts to lose it's effectiveness. On the fights where the Crusade card is no good then I use [Eye of Magtheridon] but that will be replaced with the Illidan trinket if/when I get it.

The BT trinket I only use for Trash where I'm dotting multiple targets, unfortunately. It's just not viable on really any boss fight that I can think of (maybe Vashj would be good?). I never really use my [Mark of Defiance] anymore.

 

layn

Heh. The card's wording is misleading. Before I got mine, I used to think that it stacked on the mob, but in actuality it stacks on YOU. Meaning, you may have only gotten 4-5 casts off on a single mob, but those charges will continue to stack as you switch targets. Odds are that you'll have the maximum number of charges by the time your second target hits the floor.

I originally had the same intention - Stick with Quag's eye for trash and switch to DMC:C for tougher targets, but after seeing how it actually works, there's really no need to do that.

 

Caillech

Oh really?? Well then, if it's a self-buff and not a mob debuff like Shadow weaving then that certainly changes things a bit! Thanks for the tip, I hope I can complete the deck here soon.

http://www.dkpsigs.com/sigs/Spirestone/35234.jpg

 

Balkoth

Aye, the deck is quite amazing. It's easy to keep it up for entire trash pulls, simply casting VE will renew it. Spamming SW:P rank 1 on a target also works, even if sheeped, because it won't tick. Provided you keep spamming it

 

• DeeNogger

Why is 2/2 Martyrdom in a 'typical' raiding spec? Its a great talent for pvp (fuck you rogues) and at least somewhat decent for non-heroic 5 mans, but once you step into a raid (Karazhan and above) it becomes a complete waste of points. Extra points in Power Word: Shield (survivability) or Improved Mind Blast (damage) would be vastly superior.

Martyrdom's function, as clearly stated in the talent description, is to prevent spell push back for 6 seconds after suffering a critical strike. Meaning that what needs to happen for this talent to be worth anything is the following:

Shadow Priest gets critically hit by Mob A.
Shadow Priest gains clear casting
Shadow Priest continues to get hit by Mob A (and/or other mobs) which normally would cause significant spell push back.
This is under the assumption of the "best case" for martyrdom, assuming that the critical hit lands on the first attack, which in practice is hardly something that can be depended on.

In TBC raids mobs are hitting for extreme amounts of damage, and their critical strikes can often time reach up to 5 digits, but consistently land for 6-8k (on cloth with inner fire up). Further, for the inner focus buff to be worth anything, the mob must continue to hit the shadow priest. Lets say the mob has to strike an additional 2 times for there to be a noticeable advantage over a priest with CC buff and a priest without it.

Further, mob and boss abilities cannot critically strike. Therefore, martyrdom will only be proc'd in a raid by regular melee hits (physical damage) and not AoE/splash damage, which is almost exclusively what is dealt to none tanks in raids. Meaning that the only time that martyrdom will logically be proc'd is during trash clearing when Mobs get loose from the tanks and never on boss fights (save for wipes). Hardly a situation that is worth 2 precious talent points.

I argue that no shadow priest will consistently live through a critical strike and the additional melee hits to make this talent worth while in the least. Further, said critical strikes are irregular at best, and nearly unseen at worst, for shadow priests in TBC raids.

Martyrdom is a pvp talent, and doesn't belong in raids.

I write things The word of DeeNogger New Blog! 7/6/2009

 

Meltface

What do you pick instead?

3/3 Imp Shield which is completly inneffective for reducing incoming damage? For raids this has the same arguments against it as your Martyrdom examples.
2/5 Silent Resolve to keep mobs that don't dispel from dispeling your DoTs?
You can't really put more into Mind Blast, as you are taking the T2 Disc talents to get to Meditation / Inner Focus.

Martyrdom is there because the options are more or less worse, and it at least has marginal value while farming.

EDIT:
Overall, I view all of T1/T2 disc as filler points. I don't really care how they are spent, but since I'm taking them anyway I may as well get some benefit. To me personally, the rare occasion where Martyrdom procs while farming outweigh the benefits of Improved Shield, or going 2/5 in another T1 disc talent.

 

• DeeNogger

How is PW:Shield ineffective for incoming damage? Most raid damage is delivered in predictable intervals. So predictable that some people have made mods that use timers and big words in the center of the screen to alert you to when such damage is inbound. Ill agree its not that amazing of a talent for a Shadow Priest (compared to its usefulness to a Holy Priest). But if we all agree that Martyrdom is completely useless, as I illustrated in my original post, and for a least some fights (if not most) a well timed PW:S can keep you alive or help dampen incoming damage on so many fights (Morogrim Earth quake, Hydross Nature thingy, Leothras inner Demons, VR orbs if you are too stupid to run, Iron Maiden Repentance, etc etc.) how can you choose martyrdom over PW:S or other talents?

I write things The word of DeeNogger New Blog! 7/6/2009

 

galzohar

IMO PW:S for a shadow priest is an "oh shit" button and should rarely be used. However martydon will have absolutely no use in PvE whatsoever as mobs are never going to crit you. Spells don't crit and if you have aggro a non-crit will kill you anyway, not to mention a crit...

 

Meltface

I meant the talent, Improved Shield is inneffective for incoming damage. It adds at most 300 more absorbtion if you have roughly 1.1k +heal. I rate that as completly useless for raiding as well, as you shouldn't ever be needing 300 more life to make or break a fight. As you said, damage is very predictable. And the predictably small increase in absorbtion from Improved Shield is predictably insufficient.

They are both useless for raids, so I evalutate them on how they help me outside raids. In this case I feel Martyrdom helps me farm materials for raids better than Improved Shield does. Since that is an out-of-raid benefit that helps prepare for raids, I consider Martyrdom better in a raid spec.

 

• DeeNogger

Although I disagree with you, I'll admit that the above is a solid argument. You are a scholar and a gentlemen good sir!

I write things The word of DeeNogger New Blog! 7/6/2009

 

galzohar

For martydom to do *anything* when farming you need to get hit by a mob and that hit to crit (5% chance afaik) when it still has a decent amount of HP left (so it doesn't die to Dots) and hit you at least one more time. How often that happens when farming with good gear? I don't think it happens much at all, correct me if I'm wrong as I hadn't really tried it.
It's more of a PvP talent if you ask me...

 

• DeeNogger

Farming when knowing that you have at least some protection from that rogue that seems to always be lurking in the bushes when you least suspect it isnt something to sneeze at. Almost always when I do get ganked its from a rogue, and the CC buff (and certainly the resist stun buff) would have helped.

I write things The word of DeeNogger New Blog! 7/6/2009

 

• Snowy

If you're on a pvp server it's really quite useful, and although rogues tend to carve us up it can be very good against hunters and warriors.

The debate over 2nd tier disc is much like the debate of spirit tap vs blackout. Go with whichever you feel most comfortable with. The difference in a raid environment is really rather small.

Paladin: Pyla
Mage: Pylah

 

woobsauce

3/3 shield will be more important than it already is in 2.3. Going on the standard that you want to farm, or need to, martyrdom is a superior talent. However in BT and Hyjal most of the splash damage is consistent, and comes at relatively predictable times. For a pure raid spec, 3/3 shield is the only way to go.

However, post 2.3 where shield scales with spell damage, and the talent boosts the shield by a percentage, it is going to be quite a buff. Personally for fights like Azgalor and Najentus shield is up so frequently that 3/3 is more than worth it. Even for Shahraz I find it has appropriate utility, and at times that extra damage buffer is just a life saver, especially when you consider that most spriest who are up and coming BT raiders are primarily in tailoring gear, it can be a life saver.

 

tedv

I really agree with this. I use shields in half of the fights in Hyjal and Black Temple: Azgalor, Archimonde, Naj'entus, Supremus, Shahraz, Council, and Illidan. For some of them, like Archimonde and Illidan, I proactively use them on other people. (For example, before a flame blast on Illidan, I'll shield a few people nearby. They won't have to bandage, so they'll have more DPS time.) Now 3/3 shield is only 150 more damage than 1/3, so it's really not a make or break thing. But it absolutely has a bigger impact in a raid situation than martyrdom does.

 

Lodi

Obviously the trinket from ZA is great.

Should I get 4pc t5 (have hat, would get all but chest) or mix and match FSW + ZA armor?

The spellhaste benefit is hard to analyze. I already sometimes have a 1/2 second gap as I wait for the final tick of a dot before refreshing.

 

Balkoth

I believe the current best combination is t6 helm, shoulders, chest, and gloves. Leggings would get the Leggings of Channeled Elements. Spell Haste is kind of iffy, and I'm still looking for someone to write something up about it. Not sure if any of you PW:S versus Martyrdom folks noticed, but it's been changed to 3/3 for a day or two now. I personally prefer Martyrdom, merely because I frequently PvP.

 

heel

What it came down to for me was that there is (currently) a whole lot of redundant non-haste itemization and absolutely zero redundant spellhaste itemization. In addition, we need a specific amount of spellhaste (143, I think - the point where flay becomes 2.75s) for it to become really effective. On paper, this amount of spellhaste may or may not have its advantages over straight damage gear, but in reality, we're 0 for 18 on Greatstaffs. It's much easier for me, and much friendlier to the mages, when don't have to worry about juggling uncommon drops to reach a certain spellhaste threshold.

Haste is dead to me, basically. The math might support it by a small margin but it's not worth dealing with the itemization hassle.

 

Beatus

We are 1 on, mm, 5 for Greatstaffs, but I was glad a moonkin got it. Same for the Skull, yes it's nice for us, but it's better for others. I'm waiting on the ZA trinket. (which I am hoping the other casters will be sensible enough about to see how good that is for us...)

I share your ideas about haste: might look good on paper, but it's just a way better stat for direct damage spelll casters. Besides, all calculations around haste are obviously based on ideal situations: static target, always able to keep up your normal cycle. In fights that involve a lot of moving, or generally breaks in casting, straight spelldamage is going to look way better again, anyhow.

So in short, I am not going to bother with it either.

 

Metrosexuelf

I managed to get a Greatstaff last night (4th we've gotten) and had the crafted haste bracers made. Those two items, coupled with a trash ring has me at 114 haste which reduces my flay down to a 2.8 cast time.

Having dropped tailoring a while ago in favor of enchanting I currently use [Boots of the Shifting Nightmare] as opposed to FSW boots. Rather than take a +24 damage hit by getting the Supremus belt I'm going to grab [Footpads of Madness] from Zul'Aman which will still get me down to 2.75 at a loss of only +9 damage, some spell hit I don't need, and 200ish health.

Of course, I am somewhat unique in that I have engineering (pretty much just for the mount at this point) and also have no desire to Arena my way to a Season 3 mace. On average, if you are a more traditional tailoring/enchanting priest you are probably better off just stacking damage and going with a Season 3 mace and Orb going into Sunwell. Obviously itemization there will be better but unless it is tuned along the lines of Kael'thas difficulty chances are most top end raid guilds won't be getting that many drops before downing pseudo-Kil'jaeden -- at which point it's academic and all you are doing is farming stuff to level with or... surprise... killing all of those Naxx bosses many of you already killed over a year ago.

Pre-Tier 6 level you are still better off with FSW or Tier 5. The badge haste pants aren't worth it nor are the bracers as you can simply just get better crafted ones when your guild has enough Hearts left over after crafting some Mother gear. Right now +haste for shadow priests is still in the realm of the experimental and unless you're basically in between Illidan and Sunwell now I wouldn't bother shooting for that 140ish rating.