Is anyone even threat capped on any fight except Gurtogg anymore? I stopped using 2% on cloak awhile back because I stopped seeing any benefit save that single fight. At least spell penetration helps on trash. I might go back when we see the new encounters in Sunwell but until then I can't really justify enchanting my gear around a single encounter, especially when farming.
Sadly, not everyone's guild is at you stage of progression. My guild has taken down only 3 of the SSC/TK bosses (with 2 more close before our Christmas raiding break). I am always threat capped unless I twiddle my thinbs for a while at the start of a fight. It is very rare that I can put VE up until well into a fight, and then only on certain bosses (i.e Bear & Lynx in ZA for example).
Maybe our tanks are not as well geared as yours for threat generation, and maybe our Shaman's failure to use Tranquil Air Totems contributes to that equation. All I know is that I routinely flirt with threat levels of 125%+, and 2% threat reduction definitely matters for me.
Im sorry for asking yet another question in this debate, but I can't hold myself back :P Been searching the web up and down, but couldnt find the info.
Basically, what I want to know is how you guys cope under the influence of heroism? You still use MB / Sw;D? Or just dot + MF? Personally, I have a hunch that the dps difference is very minor, and that the mana you spent will go through the roof, but what do I know :P
My point is that MB hits for maybe 3k average. With heroism MF ticks for maybe 2k in the same time (1.5 seconds). Personally, I dont think that this will improve our dps a lot, while it will improve our mana a lot if we spam MF. More like a mini-innervate than a dps increaser? :P Either way you do it, heroism wont be the big dps booster it is for other classes.
So, how do you cast under the influence of heroism, and more importantly, why?
As was discussed earlier in the thread. MF, even when you have heroism, does not eclipse the DPS of MB or SWD and are always still worth casting. Hasted MF is 2.1 seconds, not 1.5, by the way. 2k damage over 2.1 seconds versus 3k damage over 1.5 seconds...
Originally Posted by Xanana
Sadly, not everyone's guild is at you stage of progression. My guild has taken down only 3 of the SSC/TK bosses (with 2 more close before our Christmas raiding break). I am always threat capped unless I twiddle my thinbs for a while at the start of a fight. It is very rare that I can put VE up until well into a fight, and then only on certain bosses (i.e Bear & Lynx in ZA for example).
Maybe our tanks are not as well geared as yours for threat generation, and maybe our Shaman's failure to use Tranquil Air Totems contributes to that equation. All I know is that I routinely flirt with threat levels of 125%+, and 2% threat reduction definitely matters for me.
Well which bosses are we talking about? Hydross is threat sensitive for the first few seconds of each transition but the raid damage shouldn't be overwhelming to the point where you're putting out more TPS than the tank if you give him a few second lead. As long is someone is in melee range of Lurker he wont attack ranged so threat is a non-issue. Al'ar is tauntable so threat isn't an issue there. Once I stopped using VE on Void Reaver I had much less of a problem there too. What kind of TPS are your tanks putting out?
Can the two people dividing the damage by the cooldown time explain why you are doing this? As far as I can tell, this only decreases the gain, not the total DPS.
Essentially, whenever SW:P/MB/SW:D conflict, you have to delay one of them. The question therefore becomes which do you lose less DPS by delaying, aka you should cast the other first. If no one beats me to it, I'll try to explain it more thoroughly later on, I need to run for now.
While I'm not sure, it seems on fights with a lot of AOE concentration aura makes a big difference on the shadow priests DPS.
Look at this WWS, kiflichka and ubdead are both very good players, granted ubdead has a bit better gear and was flasked but it isn't nearly enough to allow him to do 1.2x of kif's damage.
Am I missing anything or is the (non-improved) concentration aura really what's making up for such a damage differnece? If you look you'll see they both had about the same amount of MB hits, SWP ticks and VT ticks (and both hardly used SWD), however ubdead had a lot more MF ticks.
Essentially, whenever SW:P/MB/SW:D conflict, you have to delay one of them. The question therefore becomes which do you lose less DPS by delaying, aka you should cast the other first. If no one beats me to it, I'll try to explain it more thoroughly later on, I need to run for now.
There is no legitimate math or support in the linked thread for dividing the total dps by the cooldown time. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, just that that link doesn't have any justifiable support behind it.
What I've been trying to do and asking others is to quantify is that delay. All the methodologies that appear accurate support delaying pain over MB/SW:D due to MB cooldown, i just can't come up with a good number...discontinuity is a pain. The discontinuity also appears to give a very significant possibility of loss DPS due to "unrecovered" mindblasts if you delay SW:P.
Last edited by ObservingLife : 01/07/08 at 2:39 PM.
Reason: Terrible wording of first paragraph
A simple explanation of the discussion over the last two pages is as follows:
Imagine Shadow Word: Pain were a direct damage nuke that did ~6000 damage, instant cast, with a 24 second cooldown. Would you cast it every time it was cooled down, delaying other options?
Or, if Shadow Word: Pain were like Curse of Doom, and after 24 seconds it proc'd and did ~6000 damage, would you cast it every time it was cooled down, delaying other options?
It seems to me the clear answer to both questions is yes. SW: P is so much damage, for so little time spent to achieve that damage, that it will take precedence 99% of the time.
While I'm not sure, it seems on fights with a lot of AOE concentration aura makes a big difference on the shadow priests DPS.
Look at this WWS, kiflichka and ubdead are both very good players, granted ubdead has a bit better gear and was flasked but it isn't nearly enough to allow him to do 1.2x of kif's damage.
Am I missing anything or is the (non-improved) concentration aura really what's making up for such a damage differnece? If you look you'll see they both had about the same amount of MB hits, SWP ticks and VT ticks (and both hardly used SWD), however ubdead had a lot more MF ticks.
Ubdead's ticks are for a little more, but the counts on Blast/Death and pain ticks are close enough that it simply looks like times actively bringing fire on target.
Kif looks like he just spent more time running around.
Granted, I'm not yet familiar with that encounter so I don't know the nature of any enviromental AE damage and weather or not it would affect our channels. Some effects do, some don't.
While I'm not sure, it seems on fights with a lot of AOE concentration aura makes a big difference on the shadow priests DPS.
Look at this WWS, kiflichka and ubdead are both very good players, granted ubdead has a bit better gear and was flasked but it isn't nearly enough to allow him to do 1.2x of kif's damage.
Am I missing anything or is the (non-improved) concentration aura really what's making up for such a damage differnece? If you look you'll see they both had about the same amount of MB hits, SWP ticks and VT ticks (and both hardly used SWD), however ubdead had a lot more MF ticks.
Ubdead's ticks are for a little more, but the counts on Blast/Death and pain ticks are close enough that it simply looks like times actively bringing fire on target.
Kif looks like he just spent more time running around.
Galzohar is correct. It really is the difference of Concentration Aura. When you see someone "just running around more" because they had fewer mind flay ticks, here's an example of what's going on when he casts a mind flay and gets interrupted:
T 0: Cast mind flay (3 seconds remaining)
T .5: Interrupted, 1 second cast penalty (1.5 second remaining)
T 1: Damage tick (1 seconds remaining)
T 1.2: Interrupted, .2 second cast penalty (.6 seconds remaining)
T 1.8: Cast finishes
So you get 1 damage tick in 1.8 seconds rather than 3 ticks in 3 seconds. You will actually stand there channeling mind flay for the remaining .8 seconds even though you'll never deal extra damage from doing so. If you only get one hit every 1.8 hit seconds, your Mind Flays are down to 55% of their normal damage. That's a huge loss.
Anecdotally, I've noticed a huge increase in my DPS on fights with pushback when I get concentration aura and/or earth shield. The biggest example of this is phase 2 Reliquary of Souls, but even Najentus and phase 2 Illidan have a lot of pushback.
A simple explanation of the discussion over the last two pages is as follows:
Imagine Shadow Word: Pain were a direct damage nuke that did ~6000 damage, instant cast, with a 24 second cooldown. Would you cast it every time it was cooled down, delaying other options?
Or, if Shadow Word: Pain were like Curse of Doom, and after 24 seconds it proc'd and did ~6000 damage, would you cast it every time it was cooled down, delaying other options?
It seems to me the clear answer to both questions is yes. SW: P is so much damage, for so little time spent to achieve that damage, that it will take precedence 99% of the time.
We all understand that. Throw this into the equation: Theoretically you have a spell on a 7.5 second cooldown (from initial cast) that does ~2200 damage on average. Casting it every cooldown means 7.5s, 15s, 22.5s etc. The problem is in the conflict. Casting SWP first every time means you are really making the cooldown on MB 9s instead of 7.5.
(0s)SWP>(1.5s)MB>(9s)MB>(16.5s)MB>(24s)SWP>(25.5s)MB>(33s)MB>(40.5s)MB>(48s)End
Total Damage= (6000 X 2) + (2200 X 6)
= 25200
Total Damage= 6000 + (2200 X 7) + (750 X 7)
= 26650
IF we are able to cast MB every cooldown. Theoretically we can squeeze in a bit more damage because we can squeeze in an extra MB cast, simply by casting it first. There is a 3rd variable. VT comes as #1 priority for any SP that's worth their raid spot, otherwise we're just another DPS class with mediocre damage. So here are the numbers again, adding VT, prioritizing it first. We'll also assume it does 650 per tick which is on par with 750 SWP ticks and 2200 avg MBs.
Total Damage= 6000 + (750 X 7) + (2200 X 7) + (3250 X 3)
= 36400
Notice how by prioritizing SWP over MB in the first scenario (I've bolded it) we pushed the cooldown of MB out, which means we fit in less MB's over the course of the trial period and we've gained 1/2 a tick of SWP (i.e 0 damage). In the second scenario, we start SWP 1.5s later but gain a FULL MB (I've bolded the part where MB/SWP line up so there is no conflict). Unfortunately the model is still incomplete. We've assumed perfect latency, no MF, no VE and no SWD. It's also a small time trial, the only fight in TBC that lasts 48s is bugged Akama. Most are between 3 and 15 minutes, but often somewhere in the middle.
The question is, somewhere along the line, does moving MB up in your rotation actually cause it to conflict with VT and/or MF to where you are actually losing an MB and SWP ticks, therefore dropping your DPS.
I ask again. Is there anyone that has access to a script or spreadsheet that can model this? I neither have the time nor the brain power at the moment to include every single variable. It would be best if we could also somehow assume 1% resists on any spell too.
P.S. I am pretty sure the math I've done so far is proper. I double checked it a few times making sure to only count actual full ticks of SWP.
A simple explanation of the discussion over the last two pages is as follows:
Imagine Shadow Word: Pain were a direct damage nuke that did ~6000 damage, instant cast, with a 24 second cooldown. Would you cast it every time it was cooled down, delaying other options?
Or, if Shadow Word: Pain were like Curse of Doom, and after 24 seconds it proc'd and did ~6000 damage, would you cast it every time it was cooled down, delaying other options?
It seems to me the clear answer to both questions is yes. SW: P is so much damage, for so little time spent to achieve that damage, that it will take precedence 99% of the time.
Because Pain DOESN'T work that way. Quick math (and everyone knows this anecdotally anyways) that its effectively never worthwhile clipping the end of your DoTs. Quick math also shows that @ 1000 shadow damage, as long as a fight has 6 seconds left you'll do more damage paining than MF. In the instant cast 'nuke', pain would always be better not matter the duration on the fight, and in the second example pain would always be worse assuming a duration under 24 seconds. Your examples, while anecdotally and debate-fully appealing, do not accurately represent the workings of those spells, so they aren't useful.
Specifically: You do not get a discontinuous "burst" if Pain was a 24 second nuke, like you do with your discontinous nukes Blast and Death. Pain's damage, assuming you are not "clipping" the end of the previous, is directly proportional to its "uptime" for all but the most pedantically precise models (as it will be slightly discontinuous due to the clipping of the final tick at mob death). Mind Blast, however, is dependant on the number of casts: it doesn't do damage on "cooldown".
A quick modelling of various lengths of fights with theoretical "optimum" DPS, and then playing with incrimental adjustments that priority systems would cause to account for inaccuracies.
The optimal model is based on casting times: it assumes VT through the entire duration, Pain through the entire duration, Blast and Death on every cooldown. Obviously this is impossible, but it provides an "optimal" baseline. Note that VT is taken out of the casting times but not included in the DPS as i don't have the numbers lying around to add it, as it isn't changing and is static it only affects the appearance of the final number, and not actually the reultant changes. This also assumes 100% use of cooldowns, with no latency issues, and perfect MF canceling for casting. Obviously these are impossible, but the amount of "error" should be equivilant for a given player (arguements to the contrary could possibly be made, I can't think of any but that doesn't mean they couldn't at least put a perspective on the modelling below):
For every global cooldown (1.5 seconds) you lose of Pain (ie pain is not up for 1.5 seconds from optimal), you lose 2.33 dps in a 2 minute fight, 1.16 dps in a 4 minute fight, and .47 dps in a 10 minute fight.
For every Mind Blast "Missed" in a 2 minute fight, you lose 15.6 dps, 7.8 dps in a 4 minute fight, and 3.12 dps in a 10 minute fight.
For every Shadow word Death "Missed" in a 2 minute fight, you lose 14.1 dps, 7.1 dps in a 4 minute fight, and 2.82 dps in a 10 minute fight.
As you should not feasably be able to lose more than 5 GCD of pain (7.5 seconds) without "retrieving" a "missed" mindblast, by prioritizing mindblast over pain, the net gain in DPS over a statistically large sample will be no less than 3.95 dps. The maximum loss of DPS on a "bad roll" of just missing your last mind blast while prioritizing blast would be 9.33 DPS in a 2 minute fight, while the maximum gain would be along the lines of 19.5 DPS in a 2 minute fight. The deviation grows smaller as the fights get longer, but the average overall DPS gain should be relatively static.
Death requires 8 GCD of pain to "retrieve" a "missed' Death, resulting in a net DPS loss over statistically large samples. In shorter fights, if you were somehow able to predict getting "one more death off", you could see somewhat significant (10+) DPS increases from prioritizing death.
I realize what was wrong with my previous calculations, and what i was missing: i was trying to consider getting a full SW:D or MB out of a single SW:P skip, which while theoretically possible is not likely and is the "top" end of the spectrum. As I do not see a legitmate way to properly determine if an additional cooldown can be "retrieved" at the end of the fight when you would have to make that decision, I would conclude that for all cases SW:D is lower than SW:P:
VT
MB
SW:P
SW:D
MF
This model doesn't have any of the nagging sensations with the previous one that something was missing, thoughts?
Imagine Shadow Word: Pain were a direct damage nuke that did ~6000 damage, instant cast, with a 24 second cooldown. Would you cast it every time it was cooled down, delaying other options?
Or, if Shadow Word: Pain were like Curse of Doom, and after 24 seconds it proc'd and did ~6000 damage, would you cast it every time it was cooled down, delaying other options?
Alternately, consider the scenario if Mindblast had no cooldown. If you could chain cast MB would you leave SW:P out of your cast sequence entirely? I would hope not. SW:P would be the first spell you cast. You would then chain cast MB until SW:P had to be renewed. MB will do more DPS but SW:P does more Damage Per Cast. The only reason you wouldn’t cast SW:P over MB was if MB did more raw damage than SW:P or if the fight will end before SW:P ticks for more damage than MB.
Adding a cooldown to Mindblast does not change the logic behind the casting priority if your goal is to maximize your damage. If SW:P is the priority when MB has no cooldown it will remain the priority with a cooldown.
As for 1% resist, and VT conflicting cooldowns: I've been neglecting both because they're so unique and situational that there is no real way to statistically account for them. As far as I can tell, a resist simply sets you back 1.5 seconds in your priority rotation, assuming you're operating properly (you will recast whatever you were trying to cast, unless its now time to cast something higher on the list, or you can't recast what you were trying to cast and thus move down the list). I've made lots of various rotation speadsheets blocking out casting "cycles" and priority rotations, and you will ALWAYS have issues where VT collides with other spells, no matter how many points in improved MB you have nor how you prioritize your spells. All of these models are just ignoring the fact that you will lose time to recasting VT, and assume it evenly screws everyone (much like a resist, it just stalls everything for 1.5 seconds, except its at the top, so you will just continue from where you were). I didn't run into any correspondance with MB lining up with VT poorly when blocking them out, but I don't have the programming expertise nor the grunt time to grind out if there they line up more at certain points, priorities, or even values of Imp MB. Would be an interesting excercise, but amazingly difficult considering individual fight movement/other action requirements.
Alternately, consider the scenario if Mindblast had no cooldown. If you could chain cast MB would you leave SW:P out of your cast sequence entirely? I would hope not. SW:P would be the first spell you cast. You would then chain cast MB until SW:P had to be renewed. MB will do more DPS but SW:P does more Damage Per Cast. The only reason you wouldn’t cast SW:P over MB was if MB did more raw damage than SW:P or if the fight will end before SW:P ticks for more damage than MB.
Adding a cooldown to Mindblast does not change the logic behind the casting priority if your goal is to maximize your damage. If SW:P is the priority when MB has no cooldown it will remain the priority with a cooldown.
(Emphasis Mine)
This is just as incorrect as the other conceptualizations of SW:P by Althir. You have zero chance of losing your MB damage in your example. Your DPS will only be increased by keeping Pain up as much as possible. Your baseline DPS is MB, while in the actual reality its MF, and your example does not take that into account, and that is why the logic doesn't translate. Because MB has a cooldown, you will lose DPS if you cast less MB because of its cooldown. This is why we are trying to quantify how many pain ticks it takes to get to the center of a Mind Blast. The world may never know...
(or it was reasonably answered above, but it was too good to pass up)
Alternately, consider the scenario if Mindblast had no cooldown. If you could chain cast MB would you leave SW:P out of your cast sequence entirely? I would hope not. SW:P would be the first spell you cast. You would then chain cast MB until SW:P had to be renewed. MB will do more DPS but SW:P does more Damage Per Cast. The only reason you wouldn’t cast SW:P over MB was if MB did more raw damage than SW:P or if the fight will end before SW:P ticks for more damage than MB.
Adding a cooldown to Mindblast does not change the logic behind the casting priority if your goal is to maximize your damage. If SW:P is the priority when MB has no cooldown it will remain the priority with a cooldown.
But this isn't true at all. The fact that MB has a cooldown changes everything. If MB had no cooldown then yes, you'd still apply SWP, because the decision would come down to one GCD -- which would either be the entire length of SWP, or one MB. SWP clearly wins in that case.
But with a 6 second cooldown on MB, if SWP has expired and your MB cooldown is up, the optimal choice is actually to cast MB first. You're not choosing between the full duration of SWP and one MB. You're only delaying the SWP cast by one-half a tick, which is nowhere close to the damage of a MB, plus you're getting that MB cooldown started sooner.
But this isn't true at all. The fact that MB has a cooldown changes everything. If MB had no cooldown then yes, you'd still apply SWP, because the decision would come down to one GCD -- which would either be the entire length of SWP, or one MB. SWP clearly wins in that case.
But with a 6 second cooldown on MB, if SWP has expired and your MB cooldown is up, the optimal choice is actually to cast MB first. You're not choosing between the full duration of SWP and one MB. You're only delaying the SWP cast by one-half a tick, which is nowhere close to the damage of a MB, plus you're getting that MB cooldown started sooner.
Am I missing something obvious here?
The choice is casting Mind Blast then Pain versus Pain then Mind Blast. The cost of the first option is a loss of half a tick, but you don't gain a full mind blast in trade. If you choose the second option, you'll still cast mind blast right after. Starting the mind blast cooldown 1.5 seconds earlier is the ONLY benefit. This is a benefit of Mind_Blast_Damage * 1.5 / Mind_Blast_Cooldown total damage.
That said, half of a pain tick is what, 400 damage tops? And a mind blast averages 3000 damage? That's 600 damage (+300 net) with 4/5 improved blast, or 473 damage (+173 damage) with 0/5 improved blast.
... Something about that makes me think my math is wrong, but I'm not sure how. This case really shouldn't be so hard to model. I am convinced it's better to cast Mind Blast instead of Shadow Word Pain when the timers for both are up, however.
You basically need to calculate 2 things:
1. MB average damage * 1.5 / (average cooldown)
average cooldown is optimally the cooldown listed on the spell + 1.5s but in reality it may end up 1.5s longer due to VT having priority.
2. SWP 1/2 a tick dmg.
If 1>2, MB over SWP. If 2>1, SWP over MB. You could also calculate the "average cooldown" seperately for with and without having VT interrupt casting MB on cooldown and then if it actually changes which one (1 or 2) is more dmg, you could play accordingly. Simulators seem to show that #2 is always more dmg, though, according to what I've been reading around.
I did some rough modeling in Excel. Again, just comparing which is better to cast first given a choice between SW:P and MB for maximum damage (ignoring for now VT, MF, and all the other considerations that ultimately make this something of a mute point but interesting none the less).
It turns out my intial statement was wrong. The cooldown does have an impact, specifically the length of the cooldown. The problem with casting SW:P before 4/5 talented MB is that it sets up a recurring conflict: every time SW:P needs to be refreshed at the same time a MB cooldown is up. So you are constantly pushing back a MB every 24 seconds. Casting MB before SW:P results in a conflict only every 3rd SW:P. Furthermore, if you ever choose to cast SW:P instead of MB you simply set in motion the conflict the next time SW:P needs to be cast. In this limited case the theory does support casting a 4/5 talented MB before SW:P since it better sequences SW:P and MB recasts and leads to less "lost" casts.
The scenario is different for a 5/5 talented MB. In this case you never run into a conflict no matter which spell you start out with. With no conflicts the DPS is essentially equal whether you start with MB or SW:P. When I get a chance I'll model the casting sequence with the other MB cooldowns.
I'll also try to remodel this situation taking VT into account to see what effect it has on the SW:P/MB conflicts.
I apologize for my earlier post, I misread the dialogue apparently.
I offer this instead:
The only time this is pertinent is when the specific conflict in mind occurs: SWP is falling off, and MB is cooled down. For simplicity, I'm going to assume:
25% crit chance
Both these things occur at exactly the same time
4/5 Improved Mind Blast (6 second standard CD)
No lag
Any other time you need to cast Mind Blast, you can do it immediately when it cools down, and any other time you need to refresh SWP you can do it without a problem.
So, when the aforementioned problem occurs, there are two scenarios:
1) SWP first, MB second
2) MB first, SWP second
1) SWP Damage done over optimal time, 24 seconds -----> MB done over sub-optimal time, 7.5 seconds.
2) MB Damage done over optimal time, 6 seconds -----> SWP damage done over sub-optimal time, 25.5 seconds.
In both cases, the time spent to cast both spells is 3 seconds, the time for the conflict's total damage to resolve itself is 31.5 seconds. Subsequent Mind Blasts, Mind Flays, and VTs are immaterial. Subsequent conflicts will follow the same logic; whichever choice was correct the first time is still correct.
Excluding T6 bonuses, various talents and so on will not alter which choice is better: it will merely compound it. Percentage based increase in damage can't make a worse choice become better.
So, my math:
1) SWP first, MB second
[(1812 + (24/15)d)] / 24 represents the DPS gained from the SWP. [(805+(1.5/3.5)d) / 7.5]*1.125 represents the DPS gained from the Mind Blast, with a sub-par pcasting time 7.5 seconds. d = spell damage
2) MB first, SWP second
Same idea, switching which spell gains optimal cast times:
[(1812 + (24/15)d)] / 25.5 <--- SWP [(805 + (1.5/3.5)d) / 6.0]*1.125 <----MB
Now, compare two functions S(d) [prefers SWP over MB] and M(d) [preferse MB over SWP]:
We're interested in which scenario scales better with spelldamage. That is, change in total damage with respect to spelldamage, or the first derivative with respect to spelldamage.
So it seems that preferring Mind Blast will scale better with + damage in this simple scenario. But at what +damage does this occur at? Just set the original functions equal and solve for dama:
I come up with negative 2350 spelldamage. In other words, Mind Blast should take precedence regardless of spell damage. The DPS contribution from 1.5 seconds of SWP will never outweigh the DPS contribution from Mind Blast, under any circumstances.
MB is not over 6 seconds optimal and 7.5s suboptimal, it's 7.5s optimal and 9s suboptimal, as if MB's cooldown is 6 seconds you cannot cast MB more often than every 7.5s no matter how high you prioritize MB, since the cooldown only starts once the 1.5s cast is complete. So if your math is actually correct beyond that point, you're over-evaluating the usefullness of MB.
MB is not over 6 seconds optimal and 7.5s suboptimal, it's 7.5s optimal and 9s suboptimal, as if MB's cooldown is 6 seconds you cannot cast MB more often than every 7.5s no matter how high you prioritize MB, since the cooldown only starts once the 1.5s cast is complete. So if your math is actually correct beyond that point, you're over-evaluating the usefullness of MB.
You're right, but the conclusion remains BECAUSE:
SWP is diminished by dividing by 25.5 instead of 24, while MB is diminished by dividing by 9 instead of 7.5; in otherwords, the change in denominator in the equation determines which suffers greater DPS loss as a result of being delayed. Still Mind Blast. Mind Blast still takes priority.
Can anyone predict the last 1.5 second of a fight will be your mindblast killshot, falling at exactly the last tick of VT and SWP??
A optimal 230sec rotation can differ quite alot from the optimal 220sec rotation.
Whatever you prioritize, in the end you will have about the same amount of SWP and MB etc in the lenght of the fight.
It is all about the mindflay cast, how well can you sqeeze them in and interupt them exactly after a tick in favor of the heavier DPS spells.
Can anyone predict the last 1.5 second of a fight will be your mindblast killshot, falling at exactly the last tick of VT and SWP??
A optimal 230sec rotation can differ quite alot from the optimal 220sec rotation.
Whatever you prioritize, in the end you will have about the same amount of SWP and MB etc in the lenght of the fight.
It is all about the mindflay cast, how well can you sqeeze them in and interupt them exactly after a tick in favor of the heavier DPS spells.
No, but I can predict that if you prioritize 5 shadow word pains over 5 mind blasts you'll have lost 7.5 seconds on your mind blast cooldown over the course of a fight. That means you've definitely lost one full blast, no matter when the boss dies. In this case, you traded 7.5 seconds of pain ticks for that blast. If mana is no concern, this is only worth doing when your mind blast deals 7.5/3 = 2.5 times as much as your pain ticks.
Well, my mind blast is more than 2500 on average and my shadow word pain ticks are less than 1000. I think my math was right after all.
No, but I can predict that if you prioritize 5 shadow word pains over 5 mind blasts you'll have lost 7.5 seconds on your mind blast cooldown over the course of a fight. That means you've definitely lost one full blast, no matter when the boss dies. In this case, you traded 7.5 seconds of pain ticks for that blast. If mana is no concern, this is only worth doing when your mind blast deals 7.5/3 = 2.5 times as much as your pain ticks.
Well, my mind blast is more than 2500 on average and my shadow word pain ticks are less than 1000. I think my math was right after all.
I still agree with this. Each time you choose SWP over MB is a theoretical DPS loss, although that loss is not actualized until the fight has gone long enough for you to lose a MB. On fights of Some Particular Length That Would Be Hard To Determine(tm), it would not matter, but that wouldn't justify incorrectly prioritizing SWP over MB.
On trash, it is possible that SWP should take priority, because it is possible that you could lose a tic of SWP by casting it second, when you would not lose a MB by casting it second. That's what I am going to roll with for now, anyway.
On a humorous aside, as far as I can tell, one of the main reasons MB is better to prioritize is the extra damage availability from crits... since we all love spell crit so much...
From what I have read here, it is a case of six versus 2 x three.
Irrespective of how you prioritise, commonly held belief is that VT->MB->SW:P->SWD->MF is the best priority to hold to.
Where the court is out, still, is whether it is worthwhile 'clipping' flay in order to reapply DoTs or whether it is best to let your Spell finish. There was a saying pre-BC when I was a healer that 'healing is an art, while dps is a science' and I think that this holds true almost everywhere but for Shadow Priests.
Everything is situational, what spell you cast and when will change 100% dependant on the variables of a given fight.
There are, I think, 2 fights in T6 content where I can stand still and Nuke. Other than that, I am running around, avoiding environmental damage and generally trying to stay alive. SWP vs MB is an arguement between DPM and DPS, for < 1200 Damage priests for whom longevity while nuking is a problem, SW:P has to take priority, as MB is not a mana efficient spell.
It takes ~2200 damage to become 'mana neutral' which is not currently achievable even with optimal group composition and the best +damage gear available. (Ele Shaman, 3xBM Hunter)
I'm still intrigued by Spell Haste, (Necromancy of topic) and whether it has yet been accurately modelled. It's something that I can identify several challenges with the maths of, as the benefit of haste varies incredibly for SPs depending on Spec, gear, grouping, rotations ...
01/07/08, 12:58 PM
2k damage over 2.1 seconds versus 3k damage over 1.5 seconds...
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