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Old 10/13/07, 11:51 AM   #31
woobsauce
Don Flamenco
 
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Undead Priest
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by nikitabanana View Post
Like I said - it doesn't fall off when you prioritize it that way.

So at least if you look at it from the standpoint of omgvtunderallcircumstances

VT
swd
mb
swp
mf


Anyone I've seen prioritizing swp over the previous two, do lower dps then the other way. I understand your VT argument, I'm just saying I guess - that I never see it fall off when I prioritize it that way - so I don't need to prioritize it highest even though I sorta do...but yeah, SW:P < using the other cd's for sure.
As mentioned before SW:Pain is always going to be a priority as long as the dot goes through a full cycle. I wouldn't ever recommend this rotation. The only time you are going to prioritize burst spells over DoT refreshment priority is in the last 3-4% of a raid boss's life. beyond that, the cycle with SW:Death is actually lower dps early on. Also, supremely stupid for the initial burst damage. I would argue the normal DoT rotation a suggested by Balkoth is probably the best, as it doesn't lend itself to the high tps to start off an encounter. Not that I don't think people can watch omen, but I'm pretty cynical and expect someone to screw it up. For those of you who have the Darkmoon Card: Crusade, opening with a few rank1's isn't such a bad idea. You dump a few thousand threat, and will gain a modest boost on your damage. The final reason that rotation is horrid, is that in most BT fights, the splash damage going around generally doesn't give you the luxury to buttonmash death every time the cooldown is up. Fights like Gurtogg, Teron, Naj'entus, etc., all have massive amounts of spike damage which can cut your life short.

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Old 10/13/07, 12:08 PM   #32
woobsauce
Don Flamenco
 
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Undead Priest
 
Mal'Ganis
Might I suggest an unusual alternative for gear/gem choices? Early on if the priest isn't hit capped, it might be in their best interests to try a bit of gem swapping (i.e. if they haven't gotten spellstrike, or just haven't had quite the right gear luck quite yet) that they try using vitality to boots, and using "Swift Starfire Diamond" to satisfy the run speed survival issue, and also since next patch MSD is getting nerfed into the ground, its necessity is slightly diminished. To satisfy the two yellow gem requirement and the hit issue, using "Veiled Noble Topaz." I don't normally recommend using alternative gems, but this might be only a couple dps lost, and survival necessities covered, dead shadowpriest don't dps (unless we still have dots ticking )

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Old 10/13/07, 2:53 PM   #33
ArkamisImm
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Thunderhorn
Theorycrafting aside, I'm curious as to where a shadowpriest SHOULD place on the damage meters in an ideal situation.

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Old 10/13/07, 4:26 PM   #34
woobsauce
Don Flamenco
 
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Undead Priest
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by ArkamisImm View Post
Theorycrafting aside, I'm curious as to where a shadowpriest SHOULD place on the damage meters in an ideal situation.
Horribly vague question. This depends heavily on your gear and spell rotation. Depending on your gear, you can touch anywhere from 800-1100 dps, and toward real endgame content 1200+ dps. As to where you place, that depends on the rest of your raid.

Last edited by woobsauce : 10/13/07 at 4:53 PM. Reason: Tried to answer the question a bit more directly.

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Old 10/14/07, 7:04 AM   #35
caskeper
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Emerald Dream (EU)
Originally Posted by woobsauce View Post
Horribly vague question. This depends heavily on your gear and spell rotation. Depending on your gear, you can touch anywhere from 800-1100 dps, and toward real endgame content 1200+ dps. As to where you place, that depends on the rest of your raid.
I'm generally sitting at ~1200-1300 effective dps (this means ignoring movement, silences and just general downtime in dps) and I've only got one (!) item from above Kara, which is a crafted that I could've gotten even without being beyond Kara.

But to the question asked, where Spriests should be on dps:

Spriests mana effeciency comes from spell/Shadow damage. THe dps increase is highest from decent to semi-high damage.

This is just an estimate, but it should give you an idea on how it works:

0-950 dmg
slow increase in dps

950-1200
Enormous increase in DPS due to being able to add in MBs/Sw: Deaths

1200+
slow increase in dps

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Old 10/15/07, 2:58 AM   #36
• Snowy
Mitt Romney?
 
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Blood Elf Priest
 
Mal'Ganis
I'd argue that an equal factor in your DPS is how good your tank is at in producing threat. This is probably more important for spriests more than any other class since SWD is a fairly high threat spell, considering that you're going to double dip in threat as VE heals the damage you take from it back up.

As for casting priority, I always go:

VT
VE
SWP
MB
SWD
MF

i.e if VT isn't up, then my first priority is getting it up. My primary role in a raid is actually not to do DPS, it's mana regen via VT, and in more than just a few fights in T6 content, healing via VE. Having those 2 effects up is paramount. Of course, doing DPS is right behind that, but the mindset that VT+VE is the only reason you come to raids is a great way to force yourself to focus on making sure your uptime on those is as great as possible.

Any fight you need to do some small movement? Do it when you need to cast a SWP, or SWD or VE, since you can cast those on the run, and have a 1.5 sec global cooldown before you can cast something else anyways.

Something else to add would be considering DoT uptime. If you use WWS, this is easy to determine if you go to your character's page and see the time you were present for. Lets say for a Void Reaver kill, you were present from 18:52:06 to 18:58:32. That's 6 minutes, 26 seconds, or 386 seconds. Lets say you had 105 ticks of VT. VT ticks every 3 seconds, so 105*3=315 seconds of VT uptime. 315/386 = 82% uptime with VT. Note: You will never hit 100% uptime with dots, there's many factors involved to how your uptime goes. It may be a movement fight, in which you'll find out your SWP uptime will be better than VT, since you have to stop and cast VT and it may come at a time when you can't afford to stop. You can't exactly stop and cast VT if an orb is coming right at you. The start of the fight is usually when the MT engages, and dots aren't up right then as well, and for the last 1% you may not reapply dots. Finally there's going to be a bit of a gap inbetween your old dot and your new dot, since you defintely do not want to overwrite any of your dots until that last tick has occured. Remember that when you apply a dot, the first tick doesn't occur until 3 seconds in, and the last tick occurs as it expires. To illustrate the concept of clipping your dots and why this is really bad, consider how you should approach VT:

0 sec: You start casting VT
1.5 sec: VT lands on the mob
4.5 sec: Tick 1
7.5 sec: Tick 2
10.5 sec: Tick 3
13.5 sec: Tick 4
15.1 sec: You start casting VT
16.5 sec: Tick 5, VT falls off the mob
16.6 sec: VT lands on the mob

Now if you had started casting VT at 14.9 sec, it would have landed at 16.4 sec, costing you the final tick of your previous VT and cutting your DPS from that spell down by 20%. In short, have a dot timer, know when your dots are going to expire, and make sure they're reapplied right after they fall off so you don't clip that last tick. As for what your dot uptime should be for any particular fight, that's really hard to say. In general, anything under 80% means you definitely have room for improvement, big movement fights (Void Reaver at times) notwithstanding. SWP uptime should be higher since it can be cast on the run, and there's less casts of it needed due to the longer length. The #1 thing for an aspiring shadow priest to work on is dot uptime. So is the #2 thing and the #3 thing! So I'd make this a big priority in the guide. A dot timer is mandatory, and examining your uptime via WWS or other tools is almost as mandatory. If there's another shadow priest in your raid, definitely compare your uptime with theirs. See how much mana you returned via VT compared to what they returned. Healthy competition is a good thing! Comparing my uptime to other shadowpriests and grinding my teeth when mine wasn't quite as good on a particular week was how I got better and better each week. Any retard can mash the MB or SWD key when it comes off cooldown, or mindlessly spam flay, but to actually track your dots and efficiently reapply them is what separates the middling shadowpriests from the good ones.

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Old 10/15/07, 3:50 AM   #37
TheCutlery
Piston Honda
 
Undead Warrior
 
Boulderfist
I realize that this is primarily a raiding board with people who raid and talking about raiding, but I do have a question regarding the scaling of spell hit.

It is stated in numerous places that you need 16% hit to cap out vs bosses, which I assume are level 73. How does that scale downwards? My priest currently is only being used for heroics and below, therefore I never see any 73's. He's currently hit capped, but that is coming at the expense of gems, which could be used for more spell damage. Would the cap for a 72 boss be 15%? 15.8 like defense seems to work? I never see any talk about how it scales with stuff lower than +3, so I can't find another reference point to determine it on my own.

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Old 10/15/07, 4:35 AM   #38
alinna
Piston Honda
 
Human Priest
 
Silver Hand
Originally Posted by Snowy View Post
Something else to add would be considering DoT uptime. If you use WWS, this is easy to determine if you go to your character's page and see the time you were present for. Lets say for a Void Reaver kill, you were present from 18:52:06 to 18:58:32. That's 6 minutes, 26 seconds, or 386 seconds. Lets say you had 105 ticks of VT. VT ticks every 3 seconds, so 105*3=315 seconds of VT uptime. 315/386 = 82% uptime with VT.
Another way that I like to calculate VT uptime using WWS is to take the total mana returned via VT (only works if you are the only shadow priest in the group though) and divide that by your Shadow damage done multiplied by 0.05. This figure is how much VT was up during the time you were actually DPSing the mob which can be helpful for fights with phases where you are unable to DPS the mob.


Originally Posted by TheCutlery View Post
I realize that this is primarily a raiding board with people who raid and talking about raiding, but I do have a question regarding the scaling of spell hit.

It is stated in numerous places that you need 16% hit to cap out vs bosses, which I assume are level 73. How does that scale downwards? My priest currently is only being used for heroics and below, therefore I never see any 73's. He's currently hit capped, but that is coming at the expense of gems, which could be used for more spell damage. Would the cap for a 72 boss be 15%? 15.8 like defense seems to work? I never see any talk about how it scales with stuff lower than +3, so I can't find another reference point to determine it on my own.
Against same level mob: 96% chance to hit
Mob level +1: 95% chance to hit
Mob level +2: 94% chance to hit

So if you never see any 73s, 3 points in Shadow Focus (6%) would be enough since you only need 5% to hit.

Last edited by alinna : 10/15/07 at 4:41 AM.

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Old 10/15/07, 4:54 AM   #39
Benegesserit
Banned
 
Troll Mage
 
Trollbane
Originally Posted by tedv View Post

That's why hunters benefit less from shadow priests than other classes.
If a hunter specs BM he's in my group. Nothings more annoying that trying to keep in WoA range and a 5% damage buff that show up more and more as the hunter gets better gear is insane.

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Old 10/15/07, 5:08 AM   #40
TheCutlery
Piston Honda
 
Undead Warrior
 
Boulderfist
Originally Posted by alinna View Post
Against same level mob: 96% chance to hit
Mob level +1: 95% chance to hit
Mob level +2: 94% chance to hit

So if you never see any 73s, 3 points in Shadow Focus (6%) would be enough since you only need 5% to hit.
Really....so mob +3 drops to 83%? Really gotta wonder what people are thinking when they design these mechanics.

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Old 10/15/07, 11:10 AM   #41
Benegesserit
Banned
 
Troll Mage
 
Trollbane
Originally Posted by TheCutlery View Post
Really....so mob +3 drops to 83%? Really gotta wonder what people are thinking when they design these mechanics.
Orange con mob means a mob you probably shouldn't be dealing with him unless you are over-adequately prepared for mobs your own level range (yellow). Blizzard is attempting to tell you that you aren't man enough for their bosses and if you think you have what it takes then you better bring the gear to take on something outside your level range.

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Old 10/15/07, 12:55 PM   #42
tedv
Observation: I am awesome
 
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Goblin Priest
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Benegesserit View Post
If a hunter specs BM he's in my group. Nothings more annoying that trying to keep in WoA range and a 5% damage buff that show up more and more as the hunter gets better gear is insane.
I'm pretty sure it's just 3% and it's uptime is close to 80% anyway. At 1200 DPS, the buff give you an extra 36 DPS. Multiplying by 20/9, you get an equivalence of 80 spell damage, so Wrath of Air is still better. It's better to be with a shaman than a hunter.

For the record, I haven't had much issue getting range on Wrath of Air on most fights. Our positions are chosen with position to the shaman in mind. The only fight where it's an issue is Archimonde.

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Old 10/15/07, 12:58 PM   #43
Metrosexuelf
Don Flamenco
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Uldum
Good guide so far. I would hold back on posting anything definitive on spell haste at this time. It's probably going to be a few months before there is enough solid data to make any informed guidelines.

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Old 10/15/07, 1:01 PM   #44
• Snowy
Mitt Romney?
 
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Blood Elf Priest
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Benegesserit View Post
If a hunter specs BM he's in my group. Nothings more annoying that trying to keep in WoA range and a 5% damage buff that show up more and more as the hunter gets better gear is insane.
I'd rather have the shaman personally... WoA is still better and you get other benefits such as mana spring and either mana tide or totem of wrath. The only fight it's ever an issue for me is Council, simply due to being on opposite sides of the room.

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Old 10/15/07, 1:34 PM   #45
galzohar
Bald Bull
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Darksorrow (EU)
You can have both, but then either the shaman and yourself, or the hunter, are getting an inappropriate totem. If you have only 1 hunter in the raid and a lot of casters and enough shadowpriests for all mana groups and enough shamans 1 of the groups would naturally be shaman with WoA+hunter+yourself+2 DPS casters.

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