One point I would add for blackout is that I often found that it was more trouble than it was worth on trash. Yes it would reduce incoming damage a little bit, but it caused a lot of problems with mob positioning.
I couldnt dot the incoming mobs because if blackout went off then the mob would just stand around while the rest of the raid had to wait for blackout to wear off and the mob to arrive.
Also anytime we were trying to reposition mobs, for example to gather them for AEing, again blackout procs would delay this repositioning.
In either case the overall raid damage lost far outweighed the minor benefit of reduced incoming damage. I eventually respecced to spirit tap and happily that was the end of the raid calls of "Fucking blackout again".
One point I would add for blackout is that I often found that it was more trouble than it was worth on trash. Yes it would reduce incoming damage a little bit, but it caused a lot of problems with mob positioning.
I couldnt dot the incoming mobs because if blackout went off then the mob would just stand around while the rest of the raid had to wait for blackout to wear off and the mob to arrive.
Incoming mobs belong on the tank to position, not dps to start. Feel free to dps when the mobs are where they are supposed to be. Reducing incoming damage is not the only thing it does. You have spell pushback, you have any utility the mob has (spell reflect, CC, silence, etc), random charges, etc. a sitting duck mob is many great things.
In the grand scheme, both talents offer little benefit, which isn't a big deal, since they're tier 1. But if you're min maxing, you're choosing a talent that can benefit 25 people vs one that benefits only up to 5 (extra mana for you to dps to give potentially 4 extra people more mana), and even then can be replaced by consumables, while the other doesn't have a purchaseable alternative.
I think its pretty obvious that we're never going to have a consensus on the best min/max selection for the T1 talent (*cough* Spirit Tap *cough*), can we agree to disagree and stop hijacking the thread?
3. What are the important stats for a Shadow Priest?
Coming soon
I'll take a stab the the important stats and say:
1.) +hit to your hit-cap. Typically 76 Hit Rating with 5/5 Shadow Focus.
2.) +dmg. (Should be obvious)
3.) +STA above expected encounter burst damage. You can't DPS when dead.
4.) MP/5. Increases longevity, but its not a high priority compared to +hit/+dmg.
5.) Everything else.
Under disc talents, you could talk a bit on why Mental Agility is bad in general. It is one of those talent that look good until you get into how much it really helps. Your choices when speccing that far are usually made between Mental Agility and Shadow Power.
1.) Opportunity cost. 5/5 MA really costs 6 talent points, as you need a garbage point placed before you can take it. Shadow Power is 5 points, as you will be able to take it if you have VT.
2.) At most MA returns roughly 20 MP/5 to you. The increased crits from Shadow Power return roughly 15-18 MP/5 (depending on gear level) to you just from Mind Blast alone. That is 75-90MP/5 to the raid, and mana to the raid is why you are there.
3.) There is one rotation where Mental Agility returns more mana than Shadow Power: DoTs + Flay. This is a lower DPS rotation and is not used as often since our role is to maximize mana returned to the party, which happens to be done my maximizing DPS.
1.) +hit to your hit-cap. Typically 76 Hit Rating with 5/5 Shadow Focus.
2.) +dmg. (Should be obvious)
3.) +STA above expected encounter burst damage. You can't DPS when dead.
4.) MP/5. Increases longevity, but its not a high priority compared to +hit/+dmg.
5.) Everything else.
I'd put mana/5 above sta except for certain encounters, and crit/spirit before int. And no spell penetration, period
I appreciate the list, but I AM going to considerably expand on it, I wanted a section for it alone for a reason. Sorry for the slow updates, been a bit busy. Will hopefully get some time tomorrow and over the weekend (non-raiding nights).
Under disc talents, you could talk a bit on why Mental Agility is bad in general. It is one of those talent that look good until you get into how much it really helps. Your choices when speccing that far are usually made between Mental Agility and Shadow Power.
1.) Opportunity cost. 5/5 MA really costs 6 talent points, as you need a garbage point placed before you can take it. Shadow Power is 5 points, as you will be able to take it if you have VT.
2.) At most MA returns roughly 20 MP/5 to you. The increased crits from Shadow Power return roughly 15-18 MP/5 (depending on gear level) to you just from Mind Blast alone. That is 75-90MP/5 to the raid, and mana to the raid is why you are there.
3.) There is one rotation where Mental Agility returns more mana than Shadow Power: DoTs + Flay. This is a lower DPS rotation and is not used as often since our role is to maximize mana returned to the party, which happens to be done my maximizing DPS.
Mental Agility is worth getting over Shadow Power if you are finding yourself at the aggro cap often (what good are crits if you have to stop doing damage anyway?). When your tank gears up to move the threshold up, put points back into power.
Mental Agility is worth getting over Shadow Power if you are finding yourself at the aggro cap often (what good are crits if you have to stop doing damage anyway?). When your tank gears up to move the threshold up, put points back into power.
While that's true, having to do this is a sign that your tank's threat generation is poor. Even without agility, you can just use the touch / pain / flay efficiency cycle which will never run out of mana. So it's not clear mental agility really buys you that much in this situation.
On the subject of threat generation, our main tank still uses a King's Defender I believe, and going full damage on Illidan, I was unable to pull aggro. Plus they cycle two shaman in and out of our group so we got mana tide every 3 minutes and bloodlust every 5. I find pulling aggro to be almost impossible unless Vampiric Embrace isn't overhealing. Perhaps the real issue is the tank's threat generation rotation.
Mental Agility is worth getting over Shadow Power if you are finding yourself at the aggro cap often (what good are crits if you have to stop doing damage anyway?). When your tank gears up to move the threshold up, put points back into power.
The usual reply to that is to get better tanks, as you have noted. There are more fights that are not threat-capped than there are fights that are threat-capped. From a min/max perspective you should almost always have shadow power. You can always just DoT+Flay and still be spec'd for Shadow Power.
If you're already not using Blast / Death, then Mental Agility is approximatly 13MP/5, with no option of added MP/5 benefit on non-capped fights. Basically its like paying 6 talent points to have a permanent mana oil on your weapon.
EDIT:
Another exception is if you are so far beyond the hit cap that you can drop to 1 or 2/5 Shadow Focus and put 1-2 points into MA.
I'd put mana/5 above sta except for certain encounters, and crit/spirit before int. And no spell penetration, period
I appreciate the list, but I AM going to considerably expand on it, I wanted a section for it alone for a reason. Sorry for the slow updates, been a bit busy. Will hopefully get some time tomorrow and over the weekend (non-raiding nights).
Oh, I agree, which is why I have the ambiguous clause "above expected encounter burst".
I was trying to imply that extra +STA falls in the "everything else" category.
Mental Agility is worth getting over Shadow Power if you are finding yourself at the aggro cap often (what good are crits if you have to stop doing damage anyway?). When your tank gears up to move the threshold up, put points back into power.
I don't see how this argument has any merit. If you are the aggro cap then what use would you have for the extra mana?
The only reason not to get shadow power is if you never (or very rarely) cast MB/SWD. Because if you don't cast either of those then shadow power provides zero benefit.
While that's true, having to do this is a sign that your tank's threat generation is poor. Even without agility, you can just use the touch / pain / flay efficiency cycle which will never run out of mana. So it's not clear mental agility really buys you that much in this situation.
On the subject of threat generation, our main tank still uses a King's Defender I believe, and going full damage on Illidan, I was unable to pull aggro. Plus they cycle two shaman in and out of our group so we got mana tide every 3 minutes and bloodlust every 5. I find pulling aggro to be almost impossible unless Vampiric Embrace isn't overhealing. Perhaps the real issue is the tank's threat generation rotation.
This statement makes me think your #1-3 caster dps might not just be due to your haste gear alone.
This statement makes me think your #1-3 caster dps might not just be due to your haste gear alone.
It's only on Illidan that they cycle the Shaman, and my group is 1 shaman, 1 shadow priest, 3 mages. Since mages have better mana dumps than I do and they got just as many mana tides and bloodlusts as me, I can't see how I would outperform them.
It's only on Illidan that they cycle the Shaman, and my group is 1 shaman, 1 shadow priest, 3 mages. Since mages have better mana dumps than I do and they got just as many mana tides and bloodlusts as me, I can't see how I would outperform them.
1) If you SW:D during everything but p2 - that makes you far more competitive.
2) Mages are most likely dealing with parasites
3) Even if you stop dps, you get a bit of dps from your dots going into demon phase.
4) Mages are dealing with parasites again
5) You can SW:D a lot at illidan and pretty much beat any other class in overall dmg (not dps, just overall dmg)
Last night I beat out the next person after dying in p2 and getting a res sometime in p3 - and the attempt before that when we stupidly wiped at 10% I was 100k above the next person. If you want to go nuts on that fight, you can as a shadow priest and pretty much guarantee top dmg spots for various mechanical/tactical reasons.
1) If you SW:D during everything but p2 - that makes you far more competitive.
2) Mages are most likely dealing with parasites
3) Even if you stop dps, you get a bit of dps from your dots going into demon phase.
4) Mages are dealing with parasites again
5) You can SW:D a lot at illidan and pretty much beat any other class in overall dmg (not dps, just overall dmg)
Last night I beat out the next person after dying in p2 and getting a res sometime in p3 - and the attempt before that when we stupidly wiped at 10% I was 100k above the next person. If you want to go nuts on that fight, you can as a shadow priest and pretty much guarantee top dmg spots for various mechanical/tactical reasons.
I looked at some random Illidan parses on WWS a bit before this and confirmed that Shadow Priests were almost always the top casters, even when the mages were specced arcane. I think you are right that parasites are the reason. Mages have to kill them, hunters need to refresh frost traps, and one warlock will have heavy resistance gear on. Shadow Priests are the only ranged DPS that can stay on the boss full time. Well, elemental shaman can too, but we sadly don't have one of those. Maybe next patch someone will respec.
On the subject of Illidan, I find it one of the few fights where it's literally impossible to run out of mana. Between mana tides and getting multiple uses of shadow fiend, even a full burn cycle won't run me dry. This tells me I use Destruction potions, which I previously just used on Gurtogg. What other fights have people found destruction potions useful on? Might be worth adding a few lines in the root post on this issue.
Also regarding tank threat generation, it just occurred to me that the real unsung heros might be the hunters in my guild. We have three and usually bring all of them, and at least some of them are great at using misdirection when it cools down. I've consistently noticed a spike in threat at the 2 minute mark, but never thought much about why until now. If your tanks have trouble with threat, make sure your hunters misdirect more than once. It helps a ton.
I looked at some random Illidan parses on WWS a bit before this and confirmed that Shadow Priests were almost always the top casters, even when the mages were specced arcane. I think you are right that parasites are the reason. Mages have to kill them, hunters need to refresh frost traps, and one warlock will have heavy resistance gear on. Shadow Priests are the only ranged DPS that can stay on the boss full time. Well, elemental shaman can too, but we sadly don't have one of those. Maybe next patch someone will respec.
On the subject of Illidan, I find it one of the few fights where it's literally impossible to run out of mana. Between mana tides and getting multiple uses of shadow fiend, even a full burn cycle won't run me dry. This tells me I use Destruction potions, which I previously just used on Gurtogg. What other fights have people found destruction potions useful on? Might be worth adding a few lines in the root post on this issue.
Also regarding tank threat generation, it just occurred to me that the real unsung heros might be the hunters in my guild. We have three and usually bring all of them, and at least some of them are great at using misdirection when it cools down. I've consistently noticed a spike in threat at the 2 minute mark, but never thought much about why until now. If your tanks have trouble with threat, make sure your hunters misdirect more than once. It helps a ton.
I have to pop mana pots on each cd until after p2 (maybe one after p2) - then again, I did 9.1M dmg on Illidan last time...trying to find the wws, our raid lead said it was screwed on his computer. But yeah, it depends on the rest of your dps. We were a bit low on casters so P2 took a bit longer because of the melee getting cut off. That and I said damn the torpedoes and refresh dots during p2 since we have an aff lock tank instead of a destro or demo lock (more effective imo because he can have a full stack ticking when he changes then switch to searing pain)
I maintained like 1200dps sustained on Illidan though, even with the downtime (so it was more like 1390dps overall if you remove downtime where my dots were ticking but I was running back for demon spawns, etc). I definitely save skull of guldan and destro pots for weakened phases and have gotten close to 10k mindblasts though. It's fun >.>....
But yeah, we're the only caster dps class other then non tanking warlocks that can dps illidan full time - and even with warlocks dpsing the entire time, the ability to SW:D brings us *a lot* closer and as well as the fact we can leave dots up easily (since all our locks but 1 are destro).
Also, hunters are awesome at illidan. Not only do they bring the dps there - they definitely own the night with solid misdirects that make it so I can SW:D right after an inner focus SW:P on the pull - and pretty much anywhere in the fight. The only time I ever worry is p2 with the amout of ve healing i'm doing - but I've never pulled aggro off our druid and he's getting misdirects and all, so I credit the hunters a lot there.
Last edited by nikitabanana : 10/18/07 at 10:55 AM.
Reason: added comment about misdirect
In response to the destro pot question, in my quest to break 1400dps on gorefiend (did 1392 sustained the other night), I've switched to using destro pots the last 20ish % of the fight since by that time mana tide is dropped, etc. I save them for heroism as much as possible, though.
Also, hunters are awesome at illidan. Not only do they bring the dps there - they definitely own the night with solid misdirects that make it so I can SW:D right after an inner focus SW:P on the pull - and pretty much anywhere in the fight. The only time I ever worry is p2 with the amout of ve healing i'm doing - but I've never pulled aggro off our druid and he's getting misdirects and all, so I credit the hunters a lot there.
The problem is that you can't trust omen. Your vampiric embrace healing threat is split between two targets with the same name, but omen thinks it's one target. I've had omen list me as over the aggro threshold and still not pulled aggro, but I know I'm playing with fire. Generally I pop trinkets at the start of phase 2 and dot up both elementals. I spend most of my time on the target that dies second, then switch back after 15 seconds.
The problem is that you can't trust omen. Your vampiric embrace healing threat is split between two targets with the same name, but omen thinks it's one target. I've had omen list me as over the aggro threshold and still not pulled aggro, but I know I'm playing with fire. Generally I pop trinkets at the start of phase 2 and dot up both elementals. I spend most of my time on the target that dies second, then switch back after 15 seconds.
exactly. we were wondering if putting raid targets on them would help omen determine which was which - but yeah.
no dice .
I've never pulled aggro and until I do - I'll pretty much VE and go full out with a feral druid and misdirects. I trust me threat on the feral druid more then the prot warrior.
I don't see how this argument has any merit. If you are the aggro cap then what use would you have for the extra mana?
I always re-apply dots and VE. When I'm at the cap, I don't use MB/SW, which is what Shadow Power is for, and since I can hit the cap often anyway, I find myself seeing more action from MA than Shadow Power. Shadow power is a much better talent, but when I can make more consistent use of it, I'll be on it.
The way I approach P2 is that I'll fully dot up both elementals, and once I get VE on the 2nd elemental then I'll start in on a full DPS burn on the primary target. The only time it failed me was when we had a one-armed tank.
Illidan is really where spriests shine in all categories -- great damage, invaluable healing in P2, and tons of mana restored throughout the fight.
The way I approach P2 is that I'll fully dot up both elementals, and once I get VE on the 2nd elemental then I'll start in on a full DPS burn on the primary target. The only time it failed me was when we had a one-armed tank.
Illidan is really where spriests shine in all categories -- great damage, invaluable healing in P2, and tons of mana restored throughout the fight.
By full burn cycle do you include Shadow Word: Death? It just seemed too risky on elemental to me, although I use it on Illidan all the time. Death crits are in the 4k range if Shadow Vulnerability is up. Between that and a fireball, you could be putting an unnecessary strain on the healers, and I know they have burst healing situations in phase 2. (For example, when they have to cross a flame patch.)
By full burn cycle do you include Shadow Word: Death? It just seemed too risky on elemental to me, although I use it on Illidan all the time. Death crits are in the 4k range if Shadow Vulnerability is up. Between that and a fireball, you could be putting an unnecessary strain on the healers, and I know they have burst healing situations in phase 2. (For example, when they have to cross a flame patch.)
I don't death on p2. Healing can be a bit more shaky there, and I'd rather not risk it since that's the only hard part of the fight.
By full burn cycle do you include Shadow Word: Death? It just seemed too risky on elemental to me, although I use it on Illidan all the time. Death crits are in the 4k range if Shadow Vulnerability is up. Between that and a fireball, you could be putting an unnecessary strain on the healers, and I know they have burst healing situations in phase 2. (For example, when they have to cross a flame patch.)
I'll occasionally SWD during P2, but it's when he's doing a Barrage or Eye Beam. I won't do it if I don't have a GFPP cooldown to spare though.
I have to pop mana pots on each cd until after p2 (maybe one after p2) - then again, I did 9.1M dmg on Illidan last time...trying to find the wws, our raid lead said it was screwed on his computer.
That has to be a typo - our raid did 9M damage on Illidan last time - you mean 910k, maybe? Do you have a WWS archive for your guild? (Your guild is blank in your profile, btw - and I don't see you in the Armory for Korgath US) I'd love to see some of the parses.
That has to be a typo - our raid did 9M damage on Illidan last time - you mean 910k, maybe? Do you have a WWS archive for your guild? (Your guild is blank in your profile, btw - and I don't see you in the Armory for Korgath US) I'd love to see some of the parses.
I believe Nikita is in Death and Taxes. As a Night Elf Shadow Priest, that would be: The World of Warcraft Armory
10/17/07, 8:05 AM
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, which is what Shadow Power is for, and since I can hit the cap often anyway, I find myself seeing more action from MA than Shadow Power. Shadow power is a much better talent, but when I can make more consistent use of it, I'll be on it.
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