Felmyst is pretty easy from a mana perspective I think. Basically I make sure to refresh dots about 3 seconds before the Gas Nova CD is up, then I just sit there with my Mass Dispel circle where it needs to be.
I go all out dps (minus SWD) on felmyst and have no problems with mana or with getting my MD off, my group only ever gets 1 tick off if that. Just use a Shadow fiend during phase two on the adds and you should get back nearly a full mana bar.
Ok so im getting alot of crap about how my dps is subpar in black temple and hyjal (full instances on farm), how much dps exactly should I be able to pull off with my current gear:
Ok so im getting alot of crap about how my dps is subpar in black temple and hyjal (full instances on farm), how much dps exactly should I be able to pull off with my current gear:
Basically I keep dots up at all times, and MB/SWD nuke when I can, otherwise mind flay..tips appreciated
Drop the two pieces of t5. If you want the two set bonus, you don't use the gloves to get it. There's a shadow spreadsheet that I noticed floating around, though I don't know if its accuracy can be vouched for.
I have a question about imp Fade. I have always thought it was a waste of a point, myself. And I didn't see you say anything about it in your post so I assume you think the same thing. My priest class leader has it and a spec that I totally disagree with. Or am I missing something and imp Fade is actually good?
I just wanted to see what you/others think about imp Fade.
Ok so im getting alot of crap about how my dps is subpar in black temple and hyjal (full instances on farm), how much dps exactly should I be able to pull off with my current gear:
Basically I keep dots up at all times, and MB/SWD nuke when I can, otherwise mind flay..tips appreciated
I would say I am at a pretty similar gear level, and my DPS varies greatly. On teron last night (I never went to a ghost so the numbers are right) I did 1100 DPS and was pretty happy with that, though that is a beautiful boss fight in that it is just constant nuke until Debuff (though I was getting a bit of construct with VE aggro so lost DPS from taking them out of the raid). On early MH trash I can consistantly hit 13-1400 DPS by multi DoTTing, though this will easily take up 90%+ of my mana per wave. But some stuff I am as low as 700 (any trash that dies too fast for DoTs to pay off specifically). But for DPS boost DoT all tanked trash :-)/
Are you always consumabled up? What number are they looking at? (bear in mind overall damage is utterly irrelevant, it is skewed by AoE etc etc. Only individual boss fight numbers should be used to determine performance. Though some boss fights favour SP more than others. Supremus I am usually near the top. Archimonde I struggle to hit 700, whilst melee can be at 1400.....
Put simply, what are they basing their statements on? What is your DPS on bosses? On trash?
I have a question about imp Fade. I have always thought it was a waste of a point, myself. And I didn't see you say anything about it in your post so I assume you think the same thing. My priest class leader has it and a spec that I totally disagree with. Or am I missing something and imp Fade is actually good?
I just wanted to see what you/others think about imp Fade.
Imp Fade is one of the worst talents in the game and anyone who takes it does not understand how fade works.
Yeah I honestly can't think of a single situation where I'd need to use fade more than once every 30 seconds. More specifically, I can't think of a fight that I'd need a temporary aggro drop every 24 seconds instead of every 30 seconds.
I am honestly thinking about trying the 11/0/50 spec next week. The only fight I ever use a mana pot on still is Council, and that's simply due to all the resists/poor mana return when Gathios has that Magic Resistance aura up. I've never have had to use a mana pot in Sunwell and I don't think I've even managed to dip below half mana on Brutallus. Since I picked up [Pantaloons of Growing Strife] (socketed with 2x Reckless Pyrestone and 1 Crimson Spinel) this week I have my Flays down to a 2.70 cast -- good enough to take advantage of 5/5 Imp MB. However I've been losing +hit on my gear so I need to put more points back into Shadow Focus.
I still think I want to keep 2/2 Imp VE, but I could see going with 1 point there as well. I can see other people needing not to put any there if you're running into serious threat issues -- although that probably means your tank needs to step up the TPS. For Felmyst as I stated above, please do make sure you're letting VE drop off naturally, there's no need to add in extra threat while she's airborne as you're blasting away at her. Healing at that point is much more relaxed since there's no Gas Nova/Encapsulate going on.
Tonight on Brut I had a resto shaman and BoW (no JoW I think) and I was able to go full throttle dps without running low on mana till about the 5 minute mark. I called for (and got) an innervate and was able to keep going but had to slam that last pot timer as a mana pot instead of a destro. I *really* hate asking for innervates but would like to be able to go all out without chain chugging mana pots (we need all the dps we can get). Our gear is pretty different, I still need my T6 chest and a helm upgrade, but I am at 2/3 meditation and am running low on mana, yet you're at 0/3 and having no issues? Is that really just a difference in gear and the presence of JoW?
On Brutallus, going all out with an elemental shaman and no JoW I was hitting maybe 40% mana with Brutallus at 20%, then I'd pop shadowfiend and get back up to full mana. I literally cannot spend my mana fast enough - on council I use super mana potions, but I started putting all my mana potions in the bank for the healers since I never use them anymore.
My situation is Similar to Mearis. I'll be getting a bit low on mana, so I'll shadow fiend for 10k+ mana and all the problems go away. There are certainly random bad situations when mana gets worse, but either you know about these in advance (you're not getting a shaman) or they are mistakes that should not have happened (your shaman dies and can't ankh). And it's not like switching from destruction to mana potions is the worst thing in the world for raid DPS.
Related to this, I've been more concerned about the lack of hit gear on sunwell pieces. I'm planning the maximum damage set from sunwell pieces, estimating 1 haste = 1 damage, although it's closer to 1.1 with this much spell damage, and 6 crit = 1 damage. I'm coming up relatively short on spell hit, however-- to the extent of needing 5/5 shadow focus. There's also the question of which T6 piece to keep other than belt/bracers/boots. Original calculations said the helm was best, but we might not have taken into account the loss of spell hit. Now worst case, if the gear doesn't have enough spell hit and you absolutely cannot cut any more talent points, we can use veiled cuts instead of reckless cuts, but that essentially trades haste for hit at a 1:1 ratio, and I want to do better than that.
So... here comes the gear list. First I'm listing all best in slot pieces that have spell hit. These slots are fixed. (For the record, Skull of Guldan might be less damage than Hex Shrunken Head, but not by much and the 25 spell hit is amazing. I'll explain the problem later.) After that I'm listing best in slot before Sunwell (ie. what you're probably wearing now) and best in slot with a full clear of Sunwell (ie. the gear you are aiming for), and the net spell damage + haste gain, as well as the net hit loss. Our objective here is to find the best trade offs of damage to hit. For this list I'm assuming you are a tailor but not an engineer.
We can do 3 of the 4 trade offs and still keep the crucial 4 piece set bonus. Obviously the shoulders and chest trades should be taken. Keeping T6 gloves gives enough hit to reach 8%, however, meaning only 4 points need to be spent on Shadow Focus. This is essentially trading 30 spell damage (15 DPS) for 1 talent point, which still seems like a bad choice, unless you really need 2/3 meditation.
Of course things get a lot worse if you don't have skull of Guldan, since the 25 spell hit accounts for a third of the hit rating you need. The reason this might be worse than Hex Head is that the activated ability doesn't stack very well during bloodlust. When lust is up and you have 250 spell haste, you should already be capped at the 1 second GCD minimum. An extra 175 spell haste won't make any spells faster except the mind flays. In contrast, extra spell damage is always good under bloodlust. If you don't have the skull, you have to make up 14 spell damage on your gear just to reach 6% hit. In this situation, you'd keep T6 gloves instead.
Honestly though if we're counting 1 hit rating as 3.5 spell damage... why not stuff hit gems in the yellow sockets? If you need the hit, that seems like a far greater damage increase than using an item with 12 or 19 less hit rating just so you can stick Spinels in it.
Especially for those of us that with no Illy trinkets.
Honestly though if we're counting 1 hit rating as 3.5 spell damage... why not stuff hit gems in the yellow sockets? If you need the hit, that seems like a far greater damage increase than using an item with 12 or 19 less hit rating just so you can stick Spinels in it.
Especially for those of us that with no Illy trinkets.
No no, I meant that doing that particular upgrade lets us trade 1 hit rating for 3.5 damage, and that's good so we should do it because hit is worth at most 1 damage (up to the cap).
I did consider the ZA ring as well. I think it will make a good piece to swap in and out if you happened to get some upgrades that cost you too much hit. Long term I think we're all going to need 5/5 shadow focus though. It doesn't make sense to keep 3/3 meditation and trade spell damage for spell hit on our gear.
Run Dire Maul North, kill the king but don't kill Stomper Kreeg. Talk to Mizzle the Crafty, get the king buff, and then Stomper Kreeg will talk to you. Buy his hooch.
I assume that 5int vs 25 spirit is still a decent gain? What with the linking of int to regen now.
which T6 piece to keep other than belt/bracers/boots. Original calculations said the helm was best, but we might not have taken into account the loss of spell hit.
I'm coming up with helm as the best tradeoff. Now, I cheat a little bit, since I get 1% hit as a racial. On the other hand, I've basically completely written off ever getting a Skull, since they don't drop and I just can't justify taking one over a mage or lock. Having a Skull would free up some options.
So... here comes the gear list.
Items you're going to wear no matter what, no ifs ands or buts:
Total: 80 (6.3%, +1% draenei racial, +2x veiled pyrestones, gets me to 4/5. Non-draenei will have to gem 4x veiled and would still be 1 hit rating short.)
I severely dislike the Mana-Attuned Band (and Ring of Captured Storms for similar reasons) due to the complete lack of stamina. If it bothers you less than me, they're options over gemming for hit.
Now, tradeoff analysis of "which is my 4th piece of T6". 5 hit is worth 5 haste or 6 damage, so we'll assume 5 dmg/5 hit tradeoff - pyrestone cut choice is the least expensive way to gain hit in terms of damage, rather than downgearing for hit, since hit in a pyrestone costs us 5 pseudodamage, while hit on gear costs us closer to 6 (not strictly true - the 'it's complicated' rule applies here). The downside of gemming for hit is that it's a lot easier to swap out a piece of gear if you're in an ele group than it is to swap out gems.
Shoulders vs. best in slot is:
-5 crit
-30 haste
-7 damage
-3 damage from sockets
+12 hit
So the overall loss is -29 pseudodamage
Helm vs. best in slot is:
-13 crit
-13 damage
-5 damage from sockets
Overall loss is -20 pseudodamage.
Chest vs. best in slot (tailoring) is:
-10 damage
-5 damage from sockets
-40 haste
-19 crit
+20 hit
Overall loss, assuming draenei (therefore only utilizing half the hit), is: -48 pseudodamage
For other races, utilizing 100% of the hit, -38 pseudodamage
Chest vs. best in slot (non-tailoring) is:
-10 damage
-4 damage from sockets
-27 haste
-5 crit
+20 hit
Overall loss, assuming draenei (therefore only utilizing half the hit), is: -32 pseudodamage
For other races, utilizing 100% of the hit, -22 pseudodamage
Gloves vs. best in slot is:
-36 haste
-1 damage
-14 damage from sockets
+19 hit
Overall loss is -32 pseudodamage.
So helm *looks* like the best piece of T6 to wear. If you're draenei. For other races, chest comes very close, and makes it easier to swap out for an elemental gearset taking advantage of totem of wrath.
Is helm better, bearing the gemming in mind?
HAP/T6Sh/ROAK: 264.27 pseudodamage
T6H/AotC/ROAK/gems: 283.51 pseudodamage - 10 pseudodamage for the haste loss from gemming hit
T6H/AotC/MAB: 276.46 pseudodamage
Looks like that's a yes. Where do we place the hit gems, if we're going to use ROAK instead of MAB, in order to make it easiest to swap them out if we don't need the hit? I'm not actually sure. That's where T6 shoulders gain an advantage - wear them if you're not in an ele group, swap to helm if you are.
Some other random thoughts:
When I have an elemental shaman, I probably swap to 2x ROAK over ROAK/Loop. In an ele group, I'm at 12% hit (4/5 plus 1% draenei plus 3% ToW) and only need 4% (51) from gear. Head enchant is 14, amulet is 15, nethervoid is 18, cord is 14, totalling 61, so I can definitely go 2xROAK if in an ele group.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Well my long-winded post basically agrees with you, that you should only keep T6 gloves instead if you need the hit. Under no circumstances should you actually socket Veiled over Reckless, however, since you can make up the lost damage by talent point shifts that incur no DPS loss. I still think the skull is just as good for us as mages and warlocks, should it ever drop. Draenei racial definitely makes things easier though.
Well my long-winded post basically agrees with you, that you should only keep T6 gloves instead if you need the hit. Under no circumstances should you actually socket Veiled over Reckless, however, since you can make up the lost damage by talent point shifts that incur no DPS loss. I still think the skull is just as good for us as mages and warlocks, should it ever drop. Draenei racial definitely makes things easier though.
I don't think it's anywhere near as good for us, simply because, as you pointed out, we can make up the hit via talent point shifts. Not even arguing the haste bit (since we do receive significant benefits from haste, on a similar order to a lock or mage). But purely regarding the passive hit, I'd feel it has to go to a mage or lock, since they'll have a much harder time hit capping in SWP gear than we will, lacking the buffer of extra hit % via talents.
It's not that I wouldn't take a Skull - it's that I can't really justify taking it away from a mage or lock, given that we've seen one, ever.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
On Brutallus, going all out with an elemental shaman and no JoW I was hitting maybe 40% mana with Brutallus at 20%, then I'd pop shadowfiend and get back up to full mana. I literally cannot spend my mana fast enough - on council I use super mana potions, but I started putting all my mana potions in the bank for the healers since I never use them anymore.
This was our 2nd night on Brut and we were mostly figuring out healing and having dps not pot/go all out. Near the end ( the last 3 attempts I think ) healing clicked and we made it to the beserk with 24-25 people up. On that last attempt dps went more-or-less all out (I was fully buffed minus a food and used 2 Destro Pots + 1 super mana) and got 21% at beserk (or when we wiped, cant remember which). DPS class comp for the raid was kinda crappy (no survival hunter, no CoR, no elemental shaman, etc) so its hard to judge just from the wws if someone is sucking.
I have been using my shadow fiend the 2nd time brut turns away from my soak group. Should I wait longer? It seems like the little bugger has been fucking up alot and only returning 8k mana, if that. Perhaps just bad luck. Monday I'll try waiting longer to see if that can stretch my mana further.
Mana isn't really a problem for me when I have a resto shaman in group and a ret paladin is maintaining JoW. Those two facets of a raid composition go a long way toward lasting a very long time before my mana dips low enough to warrant using Shadow Fiend.
Calistella - WWS is my WWS from Black Temple last night using Timbal's for the entire raid (replacing Blessings Deck). Echoing what was already said about it being 2% of total damage. It is definitely affected by the aura from Essence of Anger as well.
Proc value from that wws:
Najentus - 20 dps
Supremus - 2 dps
Shade - 14 dps
Teron - 16 dps
BB - 14 dps
mother - 25 dps
council - 20 dps
iilidan - 22 dps
Really underwhelming results to be honest, and I was so excited about that trinket. Unstable performance from what I can see, and even in its peaks it is still inferior to Hex Shrunken Head. I'll be staying with Skull and Hex until Shifting Naaru Sliver.
Single shadow destro, no CoS
------------------
Solarian: 20 DPS
Rage: 14 DPS
Anetheron: 21 DPS
Kazrogal: 24 DPS
Azgalor: 25 DPS
Archimonde: 17 DPS
Illidan: 14.5 DPS (artifically lowered by downtime, though - 76% DPS time giving roughly 20 "active" DPS)
Council: 19.4 DPS
Shahraz: 20.6 DPS
-----------------
Brutallus (no ISB, no CoS): 16 DPS
Nalorakk (no ISB, no CoS): 22 DPS
Akilzon (no ISB, no CoS): 17 DPS
With 1 DPS ~= 0.5 +dmg, you're talking 30-50 +dmg equivalent from the proc, on top of the already respectable 44 passive +dmg on the trinket (74-94), placing it at worst comparable to the Icon and at best better than Skull/Hex.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
I think it was 1 dmg ~ 0.6 dps, but the simulation site on shadowpriest wiki has been ravaged by spam, so can't really confirm atm. In all cases, you're taking a lottery by using this trinket and whether you'll end up with a ~90 equivalent or ~70 equivalent is solely left to chance (and ISB uptime hehe). Hex is a solid 100% 88.16 dmg equivalent trinket and I don't see it losing its 2nd best slot for now.
Keep in mind that the WWS concept of DPS is different from the chain casting concept of DPS. In other words, 100 spell damage will give you 50 extra DPS *only* while you're actually casting. The more downtime you have, the better Timbal's crystal is relative to other options, even though it will measure as less damage. This is partially because more downtime means a higher percent of damage from dots (eg. on Supremus) and partially because it gives more time for the internal cooldown to wear off.
Or put another way, it's possible that you'd only gain 10 real DPS over the course of the fight from having a straight 40 spell damage on some of those fights.
04/10/08, 3:59 AM
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