TBC Shadow Priest 101: How to Melt Faces Effectively - Page 61

Natt · 03/24/08, 5:15 PM

If people are getting a lot of haste, is it worth to change the application order of VT/SWP and have SWP first?
0s cast swp
1.4s GCD and latency allows VT be cast
2.8s VT on target
3s swp first tick gives mana back.

VT/SWP would start give a mana return after 1.4+3 seconds, right?
Which then gives mana for both swp and vt at the same time (minus latency).

If this is better, is it only during the start-up or does it affect something I cannot think of?

Kalman · 03/24/08, 5:50 PM

It really only matters during the startup, and it matters almost not at all there. Yes, you can get SWP up so that the first tick is caught... but then again, the same is true of VT SWP application, so, what's the real difference? Essentially you're just entering into the long-period cycle at a different point.

greatanubis · 03/25/08, 10:36 AM

I played a lock for a while, this is my first shadow priest. I am hoping for some advice on my currently attack pattern

1. VE: (i do this first to give me the mana regen back from my other attacks)
1.5. VT
2. SWP: (im a lock, i get all my dots up and keep em up)
3. MB: (get it out there so i can wait for the cooldown)
4. MF
5. MF (i find i can do 2 MF before the MB cooldown is up)
6. MB
7. VE (its usually up by then)

After that its just keeping dots applied and using MB every time i can, also keeping MF up.

Now here is one of my biggest questions, should i incorporate Shadow word Death, I haven't till this point because i hate putting extra healing on the healer, but the more i think of it i could most likely gain that health back with VT, so should i toss it in to up my dps.

Any suggestions would rock, Oh lol another question [How much +to spell damage do you need to have to gain more mana back from mind flay then you put out?]

Also what is considered a good amount of haste to a shadow priest?

Ozzmar · 03/25/08, 10:58 AM

Dude, did you even read the first post in this thread?

Originally Posted by Balkoth

7. What is a spell priority system, and how does it apply to Shadow Priests?
ZOMG I JUST NEED TO KNOW WHAT ROTATION TO USE.

Sorry, it doesn't quite work like that. Shadow priests may have specific combinations they like to cast (such as MB -> MF -> MF -> MB) but they are part of a general priority system. This priority system is a way to determine what spell to cast next. It is a method to juggle essentially four cooldowns (MB, SW:D, VT, SW:P).

The spell priority that is generally accepted is...

1. VT
2. SW:P
3. MB
4. SW:D
5. MF

This means you always maintain VT, and then always maintain SW:P. If both of these are ticking, use MB if it's up, and then SW:D. Only MF if all four other spells are on cooldowns.

NOTE: This is a maximum DPS priority list. At lower gear levels, it is common to simply use...

1. VT
2. SW:P
3. MF

Also, the math you're asking about is extremely elementary. 5% of what amount is equal to [Mana Cost of Mind Flay]? With the base cost being 230 at max rank, (and 209 talented), you're going to have to make your Mind Flay hit for about 4180 in total to get 209 mana back. Impossible?

There's been a ton of haste discussion in this thread as well. There info is there man - search before asking!

warheathen · 03/25/08, 2:14 PM

I'm just putting this out there because i noticed a difference and wondered if someone could test it to make sure its doesnt just work for myself. Everyone on this forum swears up and down about SW

and spell priorites are the way to go, and I am not saying you are wrong at all, i respect most of you alot. I just noticed a difference in my own overall damage and wanted to know if anyone else has. I do not use SW

at all, when in a boss fight, but do use it on trash just for burst when the mob is about to go down. My spell rotation is :

SW:P
VT
MB
MFx2
MB
MFx2

I dont use VE at all because this rotation causes high enough threat as it is. Generally in a boss fight, i alter it according to the fight. Obviously with imp SW:P you wont have to reapply it at the beginning of every rotation, and sometimes will have to cut MF 1 tick off in order to keep VT up. I used the spell priority provided in these posts, and when a buddy of mine hooked me up with this rotation, i noticed a big difference in my dps. I am at the top most of the time, surpassing the combat rogues, and BM hunters alot, whereas when I used SW

in my "Priority list" i normally placed about 7th-10th. My own theory as to why it increased is because I am not wawiting on the GCD of SW

, added up over a whole boss fight, is a lot of time. And before you immediately start typing and calling me an idiot, all I ask is that you try it before you bash it, just to see if your dps changes. I would greatly appreciate the help. And if your wondering, there are no other shadow priests in my guild that can test this for me, but i do have a couple others in different guilds testing my methods. Have a good one guys, and happy hunting.

warheathen · 03/25/08, 2:49 PM

Also, forgot to mention that i have never raided in Hyjal or BT, so it may change in end game content, which is why i asked for help. I am also undead so i use the Inner Focus-DV combo whenever its up.

Kayerra · 03/25/08, 2:49 PM

Hello,

I have been coming to your site quite a bit after reading this post I wanted to ask why isnt spell crit in your opinion not substantial?

After my respec last year sometime I noticed a substantial increase in dps with the addition to crit... this was with the exact spell priority you have laid out already in place I guess im asking for numbers as to why its not substantial... I noticed a huge increase in numbers and mana backing.

Sorry if this has already been ask or stated I read over the posts and seen the same questions as to why im horrible with charts and forumals ill admit... so maybe if I could see what your talking about I could better understand how its not that huge.

tedv · 03/25/08, 3:03 PM

Originally Posted by Kayerra

Hello,

I have been coming to your site quite a bit after reading this post I wanted to ask why isnt spell crit in your opinion not substantial?

After my respec last year sometime I noticed a substantial increase in dps with the addition to crit... this was with the exact spell priority you have laid out already in place I guess im asking for numbers as to why its not substantial... I noticed a huge increase in numbers and mana backing.

Sorry if this has already been ask or stated I read over the posts and seen the same questions as to why im horrible with charts and forumals ill admit... so maybe if I could see what your talking about I could better understand how its not that huge.

From the very first post:

Spell Crit: Spell crit affects every single shadow priest spell that can crit. Yes, both of them. Only MB and SW:D are affected by spell crit, and they only crit for 150% damage, meaning that spell crit is a fairly weak stat for shadow priests. The current accepted conversion is roughly 6 spell crit rating = 1 damage. Yes, it's that weak. And it does nothing if you are not using MB or SW:D.

Anedris · 03/25/08, 3:08 PM

Warheathen:

SW

is more DPS than mind flay. The math is extremely simple - mind flay does not do twice as much damage as a single SW

, therefore casting mind flay instead of SW

will always be a DPS loss. Your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant and probably due to you having a shaman in your group, or having less death and decays targetted on you that run, or whatever. The only time that dropping SW

will gain you DPS is a) if you're running out of mana or b) if SW

is getting you killed (both very reasonable reasons for not casting the spell).

There is no spell rotation because the cooldowns and DoT durations do not line up. Roughly, you just cast the highest damage per cast time spell each GCD (excepting that it has been shown to be worth it to cast mind blast before SW:P when both come up at once). Your DPS with a rotation may be higher if you're not very good at making spell choices (i.e., if you're messing up the priority queue), but that's human error. The math is, once again, simple - casting a lower DPS spell (like mind flay) when you could be casting a higher DPS spell (SW

, mind blast) is going to be a DPS loss.

Kayerra:

Spell crit is a mediocre stat for classes who cast nothing but nukes that crit at 200% damage. Shadowpriests have only two spells that can crit, both of which are on cooldowns and thus can't be chain-casted, and both of which crit at only 150% damage. That's the basic logic behind it's near-uselessness for us - it's balanced around classes who can get far far greater benefit from it than we do.

Kayerra · 03/25/08, 3:09 PM

Originally Posted by warheathen

I'm just putting this out there because i noticed a difference and wondered if someone could test it to make sure its doesnt just work for myself. Everyone on this forum swears up and down about SW

and spell priorites are the way to go, and I am not saying you are wrong at all, i respect most of you alot. I just noticed a difference in my own overall damage and wanted to know if anyone else has. I do not use SW

at all, when in a boss fight, but do use it on trash just for burst when the mob is about to go down. My spell rotation is :

SW:P
VT
MB
MFx2
MB
MFx2

I dont use VE at all because this rotation causes high enough threat as it is. Generally in a boss fight, i alter it according to the fight. Obviously with imp SW:P you wont have to reapply it at the beginning of every rotation, and sometimes will have to cut MF 1 tick off in order to keep VT up. I used the spell priority provided in these posts, and when a buddy of mine hooked me up with this rotation, i noticed a big difference in my dps. I am at the top most of the time, surpassing the combat rogues, and BM hunters alot, whereas when I used SW

in my "Priority list" i normally placed about 7th-10th. My own theory as to why it increased is because I am not wawiting on the GCD of SW

, added up over a whole boss fight, is a lot of time. And before you immediately start typing and calling me an idiot, all I ask is that you try it before you bash it, just to see if your dps changes. I would greatly appreciate the help. And if your wondering, there are no other shadow priests in my guild that can test this for me, but i do have a couple others in different guilds testing my methods. Have a good one guys, and happy hunting.

hmm I use VT, SW:P,MB, SW

,MFx2,MB,MFx2 repeat... only time I modify this is Depending on Boss fight encounter, or if its trash from what I have learned shadow priests increase damage wise with dration namely Because of dots ticking on a target you wont see as much dps as a straight out nuker on trash if its going down fast.

Why do I cast VT first? your not counted as going into combat on your DPS meters till your dot lands... so why wouldnt you do longest cast time not to mention you have a 3 second window before your dot ticks ( give or take the 3 seconds its been a bit since I timed this). So if you cast it first then SW:P. I dont know what fights or trash your talking about specifically I have cleared hjal and bt to date and there are some fights where its imo not a shadow priest fight.

Also take into acct that hjal there is alot of AOE based dps specifically on the trash I have found a way to kind of counter that with a good DOT rotation on thos mobs.... on specific fights I do very well others of course im going to loose dps because of threat ect...

As far as your comment to VT causing threat VT causes 1 threat to every 2 points of mana you return to your group if you watch your meters accordingly THEN it should never be an issue of pulling off the tank due to threat. VE is as applies for every 1 point of healing healed in your group you take 1 point of threat making VE not a good choice to cast on ALOT if not most of the content how ever on fights like BB (Blood Boil) I was requested to run VE as well as VT... BB is a very agro sensitive fight in phase 1 and I never pulled with proper spell rotation.

As far as your dps being lost... I'm not quite sure how your loosing dps with the rotation I just gave you since I started using this last year I have seen substantial increases dps wise to the point on some fights I.E. illidan I was number 2 dps... Kael number 1... and vashj number 1 given nothing bad happened during the fights. Do remember dps changes from SSC/TK to BT/Hjal... in the sense that there is (hjal) alot more aoe damage taking place as well as not being able to use SW

... I would recommend you using that in regular rotation when you can UNLESS your very low on spell damage then I could see the reasoning for your rotation in that sense...

Either way everyone has a rotation that works best for them that they have intigrated into the content they are currently on... I hope maybe me telling you what I have done might shed some light on WHY people use VT first.

Mimzy · 03/25/08, 3:09 PM

It is not a huge deal for several reasons.

As a shadow priest, you have two spells that can crit. Neither spell is spammable, both are on significant cooldowns. Furthermore, you only gain 50% extra damage on a crit, there are no modifiers for 100% damage bonus like some other spell casting classes have (warlock talent 'Ruin' for example).

As you can see, you don't get much 'bang for your buck' from crit rating.

That's not to say it wont increase your DPS, as it will. It just isn't as effective to stack as spell damage is (which increases the damage of *everything* you do.

Anedris · 03/25/08, 3:12 PM

Use VT first because your reason for being is to return mana to your group, and if VT isn't up you're not doing that. Not pulling aggro is simply about not DPSing when you don't have the threat room to do so - BB for example is not about DPS, so help out the healers and do most of your damage during the fel rage phases, and just coast for the normal phases (hover below the second/third tank in threat).

Kayerra · 03/25/08, 3:17 PM

hmmm I understand what your saying but in GOOD situations with the right make ups I crit alot wich does up my dps a bit and up the mana for my group.

this is my priority please correct me if im wrong

spell damage > spell hit > spell crit

meaning I dont make it a priority... how ever having some spell crit on an item im rolling for is a nice bonus I agree that yes mb and sw : d is on cool downs HOWEVER they do make up for a chunk of the dps done... MF is only filler damage till your cooldowns come back up.

When I changed my spec to include spell crit I saw a substantial increase not HUGE no but enough that I would want to keep it. I guess that was what I was getting at is that even tho its periodic STILL when I do crit it boosts my dps AND mana for my group.

Kayerra · 03/25/08, 3:25 PM

dps = mana for your group... VT is a dps sell... yes you cast it first so that every tick gives mana BUT your not on the dps charts till your first dot is cast... meaning your not LOOSING dps to cast it first... meh I think I'm exsplaining wrong.

lol sorry if you all are miss understanding me I'm agreeing with the mana things and the spell crit I just feel to not have the crit would be lowering over all dps... and casting VT first takes away from initial down time as well as making sure that all spells give mana.

hmmm not sure how all meters work mine does not count my dps till my dot lands (recount) so what I was trying to say is not only is it more dps efficitent its more mana backing efficient...

warheathen · 03/25/08, 4:26 PM

Anedris, i do as a matter of fact have a problem with dying. if anyone armory'd me, they would of known. i only have 6.8k health unbuffed, because i sacrificed alot of stats for spell dmg, so yes, SW:D is a problem most of the time. But, thanks for the help guys. Appreciate it.

-War