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09/08/08, 12:42 AM
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#1351
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Glass Joe
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Am I doing it right?
Ok just looking for some positive/negative feed back on this, I know its not a rotation but just a general of how I should be working my abilities.
Normally a raiding Combat Rogue I just wanted an alt and I figured if I am going to do it I may as well do it right.
Thanks

Last edited by Kakon : 09/08/08 at 12:54 AM.
Reason: Wrong Picture Posted
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09/08/08, 1:29 AM
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#1352
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Von Kaiser
Draenei Priest
The Forgotten Coast
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Do MB before SWP. Although SWP does more instantaneous DPS than Mind Blast, SWP has a very long duration, losing half a tick by casting MB first does not result in as much of a damage loss than delaying MB with it's relatively short 7 second effective cooldown.
Also in the notes at the bottom you stated that Inner Focus + DP is 3 seconds, Inner focus is an instant, not an instant cast, meaning it does not invoke the GCD. The same goes for potions, healthstones, and similar items but NOT Shadowfiend.
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09/08/08, 1:45 AM
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#1353
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Glass Joe
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Ah thanks, I didnt think about that on the Innerfocus
Now for those who read that dont think its what I am following 100% of the time, I put that up just as a general "Is this how I should be thinking" kinda of a thing.
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09/08/08, 4:50 AM
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#1354
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Kakon
Ok just looking for some positive/negative feed back on this, I know its not a rotation but just a general of how I should be working my abilities.
Normally a raiding Combat Rogue I just wanted an alt and I figured if I am going to do it I may as well do it right.
Thanks
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You're clipping the last tick on SW:P. Ideally you want it reapplied as soon as the last cast of it fades, no sooner. If you overwrite it before the old one fades you're losing damage, and wasting mana.
Also, during the first back to back mind flays clip the second one after the second tick, cast the mind blast sooner. Cutting the second off that mind blast will close the gap in your VT uptime.
Hopefully you're not expecting this to be a real rotation. You rotation is assuming no lag/interupts/moving, and spriests dont have a nice rotation. We have spell priority.
Basically at anytime while DPS'ing you need to be aware of your DoT's being up, and where you are at for SWD and MB cooldowns. Your goal is to keep VT and SWP up as much as humanly possible (without clipping) and have MB and SWD spend the least amount of time possible not on cooldown. Between doing these 4 things pack in as many mind flays as you can.
Mind Flay clipping is ending the mind flay right after a damage tick, so you are free to cast a different more important spell (any of the above mentioned) sooner.
Originally Posted by Tymir
Do MB before SWP. Although SWP does more instantaneous DPS than Mind Blast, SWP has a very long duration, losing half a tick by casting MB first does not result in as much of a damage loss than delaying MB with it's relatively short 7 second effective cooldown.
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I've thought about this some. Wouldn't the best rotation be MB -> SW  -> SW:P
Just like MB anytime SW  is sitting there not on cooldown is a loss of DPS.
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09/08/08, 2:28 PM
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#1355
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Glass Joe
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No again as stated above I know this is not a roation, just a way of thinking when I try and prioritize spells to use, nothing more. Just looking for things to do differently and I appeciate your feedback.
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09/08/08, 3:33 PM
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#1356
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Von Kaiser
Draenei Priest
The Forgotten Coast
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From my calculations the slightly lower DPS/cast time of SWD combined with the 71% (or more depending on haste) longer cooldown reduces the oportunity cost of delaying SWD enough to warrant casting SWP or VT before SWD.
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09/11/08, 5:19 AM
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#1357
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Glass Joe
Dwarf Priest
Arathor (EU)
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I'd also drop a point in Imp MB, your 5.5 sec CD isn't doing anything that a 6 sec CD won't according to your graph.
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09/15/08, 3:51 PM
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#1358
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Kakon
Ok just looking for some positive/negative feed back on this, I know its not a rotation but just a general of how I should be working my abilities.
Normally a raiding Combat Rogue I just wanted an alt and I figured if I am going to do it I may as well do it right.
Thanks

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How do I make a graph like that? That is really cool.
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09/15/08, 4:51 PM
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#1359
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Von Kaiser
Draenei Priest
The Forgotten Coast
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Originally Posted by solly
How do I make a graph like that? That is really cool.
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Microsoft Excel, just color and label the cells.
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09/15/08, 8:01 PM
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#1360
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Tymir
Do MB before SWP. Although SWP does more instantaneous DPS than Mind Blast, SWP has a very long duration, losing half a tick by casting MB first does not result in as much of a damage loss than delaying MB with it's relatively short 7 second effective cooldown.
Also in the notes at the bottom you stated that Inner Focus + DP is 3 seconds, Inner focus is an instant, not an instant cast, meaning it does not invoke the GCD. The same goes for potions, healthstones, and similar items but NOT Shadowfiend.
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From a mathematical standpoint, casting MB before SWP cannot be beneficial if SWP deals more damage per cast than MB. This is fairly simple to prove.
Let's say you have two players, Alice and Bob.
Alice prioritizes SWPain over Mind Blast. When SWP wears off just as MB comes off cooldown, she chooses to SWP.
Bob prioritizes Mind Blast over SWPain. When SWP wears off just as MB comes off cooldown, he chooses to MB.
Other than these two spells, their casting priorities are the same. They therefore will cast exactly the same number of Mind Flays, Vampiric Touches, SWDeaths, and Vampiric Embraces. The only difference is that Alice casts more SWPains and Bob casts more Mind Blasts.
These two shadowpriests will eventually get to the point where they are casting a Mindblast at exactly the same time, but Bob has cast one more Mind Blast than Alice over the duration of the fight. What did Alice do in those 1.5 seconds (minus haste)? Because Bob and Alice cast exactly the same number of "other spells", this means that Alice has cast one additional SWPain.
Therefore, as long as one SWPain deals more damage than one Mind Blast, you should always prioritize SWP over MB.
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This can also be proven with a much shorter logical arguement.
The oppurtunity cost of one Mind Blast is 1.5 seconds, modified by haste.
The oppurtunity cost of one SWPain is 1.5 seconds, modified by haste.
Since they have the same oppurtunity cost, you should cast whichever one deals more damage-per-cast.
This is starkly different from the Warlock argument, where the oppurtunity cost of Curse of Doom is 1.5 seconds per minute (modified by haste) while the oppurtunity cost of Curse of Agony is ~3.75 seconds (averaged).
Last edited by PiousFlea : 09/15/08 at 8:07 PM.
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09/16/08, 1:45 AM
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#1361
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Von Kaiser
Draenei Priest
The Forgotten Coast
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You have several non sequitur jumps in logic but I can't discern where it's stemming from so I'll have to explain the whole concept from the top.
Imagine that SWP does 1/3000th of it's current damage per tick but lasts 3000 times longer, thus staying at the same total damage and the same DPCT. What has changed is the opportunity cost. In your post you said that the opportunity cost of both SWP and MB was equal, this is incorrect. Whichever spell gets delayed will have it's cooldown extended by 1.5 seconds but the end result is different depending on which spell is delayed (how you used that same 1.5 seconds).
A Shadow Word: Pain in this theoretical situation will tick for about 2 damage, delaying this SWP by 1.5 sec is half a tick, or an opportunity cost of 1 damage.
Delaying Mind Blast by 1.5 sec in this hypothetical situation results in a loss of (MB damage)(1.5/(CastTime+Cooldown))
Substitute in an average Mind Blast of 2900 damage and the opportunity cost of delaying MB ends up being 621.
Ditch the hypothetical situation for a real one, suppose you chose MB over SWP 5 times throughout an encounter. At the end of the fight this affords you a little over a whole extra MB at the cost of exactly 2.5 SWP ticks.
In the end, with current cooldown lengths and game mechanics SWP has to do nearly 4 times more average damage than MB for SWP to be worth casting first.
The lesson to be learned here is if ability damage, cast time, ect is held constant amongst the two abilities that are to be compared, then the opportunity cost of delaying an ability approaches zero as the effective cooldown of the ability approaches infinity. The question is not one of DPCT at all (unless the ability's DPCT is less than the filler spell of course) but one of cast time, cooldown length, and ability damage.
Last edited by Tymir : 09/16/08 at 1:53 AM.
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09/16/08, 5:33 AM
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#1362
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Glass Joe
Dwarf Priest
Arathor (EU)
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just a fyi.
Many changes to the Priest racial abilities will be coming soon in a future patch. For the details read below.
In an upcoming build all Priest racials have been retired, except the following:
* Desperate Prayer - This is now the 11-point talent in Holy, Holy Nova is now a base ability. Cooldown also reduced to 30 seconds.
* Devouring Plague - Now a base ability. Cooldown reduced to 30 seconds, mana cost greatly reduced.
* Symbol of Hope - Now a base ability. Now restores 5% base mana every 2 seconds for 8 seconds to your party. Renamed "Hymn of Hope."
While this change does reduce the "uniqueness" of different Priests, we feel game balance as a whole will benefit.
Note: These new "racials" are not racials, they are trainable to all Priests. (Src)
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09/17/08, 3:55 PM
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#1363
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by PiousFlea
Other than these two spells, their casting priorities are the same. They therefore will cast exactly the same number of Mind Flays, Vampiric Touches, SWDeaths, and Vampiric Embraces. The only difference is that Alice casts more SWPains and Bob casts more Mind Blasts.
These two shadowpriests will eventually get to the point where they are casting a Mindblast at exactly the same time, but Bob has cast one more Mind Blast than Alice over the duration of the fight. What did Alice do in those 1.5 seconds (minus haste)? Because Bob and Alice cast exactly the same number of "other spells", this means that Alice has cast one additional SWPain.
Therefore, as long as one SWPain deals more damage than one Mind Blast, you should always prioritize SWP over MB.
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As Tymir pointed out in his example, Alice did not cast an "extra" pain, but rather gained 2.5 ticks of SW:P.
In the current patch you would need Pain to tick at around 1160 (using Tymir's average Mind Blast of 2900, divided by 2.5 to get the needed damage per SW:P) for SW:P's DPS to pull equal to MB's.
I'm too lazy to figure out the exact breakpoint, but I imagine you are both correct for varying gear levels.
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09/17/08, 7:54 PM
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#1364
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Glass Joe
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Re: Tymir
I've spent much time over the last two days thinking about this problem (lol) and it's an interesting thought experiment. I've come up with at least 6 wildly different ways to look at the problem. I suppose it's all moot with 3.0 as SWP will refresh itself, but I am morbidly fascinated at this point.
I don't believe it's fair to consider Mind Blast as a 6second cooldown in this scenario. Mind Blast and SW:P can conflict with each other no more frequently than every 24 seconds (the duration of SWP). Whether you Mind Blast every
5.5 seconds or every 8 seconds, you can cause a delay in Mind Blast no more than once every 24 seconds.
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Consider the ways in which you can refresh SWP:
1) SWP falls off, MB is still on cooldown. You cast SWP. Your MB cooldown is unchanged, and you lose no SWP uptime.
2) SWP falls off, MB just came off cooldown. You cast SWP and then MB. Your MB cooldown is delayed 1.5sec.
3) SWP falls off, MB just came off cooldown. You cast MB and then SWP. You have lost 1.5sec of SWP uptime, and your next SWP will come 1.5sec late.
We will ignore situation #1 because it doesn't affect anyone. Let's again consider Alice (SWP first) and Bob (MB first). Let's say that over a certain period of time, both Alice and Bob have encountered 5 SWP/MB conflicts:
Alice: MB's cooldown has been delayed by 7.5 seconds. SWP has not lost any casting time.
Bob: MB has not lost any casting time. SW:P has lost 7.5sec of uptime.
Woohoo, you say - Bob has gained 2,900 damage from that extra Mindblast, while Alice has lost 2.5 ticks of SW:P for 1600 damage. It's good to prioritize MB over SW:P!
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Stop. Reality check.
Bob's total casting time is 7.5 seconds longer because he has let SWP fall off for 7.5 seconds! Alice's casting rotation takes less time because she can reapply SWP more frequently. We are effectively comparing a 24 second cast rotation to a 25.5 second cast rotation - apples and oranges! It is misleading to directly compare the two.
The truth is even trickier than this. The fact is, most of the time there will be no conflict between SW:P and MB and both players will refresh SW:P exactly the moment it falls off. (this is a thought experiment, so both of them can have 0msec effective lag. Maybe I should rename them Cameron and Cromartie.) Sometimes Alice will have a conflict and Bob won't - Alice will fall further behind in MB cooldown but Bob will not lose any SWP uptime. Sometimes Bob will conflict and fall behind, while Alice has no conflict and loses nothing.
If you look at a graph of total damage dealt, at every point from 1.5sec to 24sec, Bob will appear to be 1.5 seconds ahead of Alice. However, Alice gets to refresh SWP 1.5 seconds earlier. If you consider a DPS cycle as starting by refreshing SWP, Bob's DPS cycle is 1.5 seconds slower than Alice's. This is true if the conflict happens right away (24sec vs 25.5sec rotation), but also if the conflict takes several full cast rotations. (ie 72sec vs 73.5sec rotation)
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The Answer.
There is only one point at which Alice and Bob can be directly compared. This is after Bob has delayed SW:P by 24 full seconds - that's 16 SWP/MB conflicts. At this point, Bob is ready to cast his Nth SW:P. His SW:P timer is 24 seconds behind Alice. This means that Alice is ready to cast her (N+1)th SW:P.
How many additional Mind Blasts has Bob gained over Alice?
The answer is surprising: Exactly one.
Other than MB and SW:P, Bob and Alice cast exactly the same number of other spells. Therefore, if Alice has cast one additional SW:P, Bob will have cast one additional MB. No matter how improbable this seems, it is logically certain.
What happened the 24 seconds shorter cooldown on Mind Blast? It's an illusion. Bob purchased a 24 second shorter Mind Blast cooldown at the expense of spending 24 seconds longer to cast his spells. In the end he only comes out one Mind Blast ahead, and it doesn't matter what the cooldown of MB is .
Don't believe me? Run a sim or better yet, construct a simple Excel spreadsheet. You will find I am 100% correct.
I made a dead-simple spreadsheet where you can only cast two spells (Mind Blast and SWPain) and time is divided into 1.5second quanta. There are two columns, one which prioritizes MB and one which prioritizes SWP. You can plug in any values for Mind Blast cooldown and SWP duration and you will get one of three scenarios:
1) The "MB first" rotation is grossly more efficient than SW:P first. (less conflicts)
2) The "SWP first" rotation is grossly more efficient than MB first.
3) The rotations are roughly equal, and for every extra MB you get, you lose a full-duration SWP.
What's interesting is that scenario #3 is what happens under "realistic" conditions of 24sec SWP and 6sec MB CD. #1 and #2 are unrealistic in any case, because your filler spell rotation is unpredictable, and combined with lag this will tend to equalize the overall number of conflicts.
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09/18/08, 6:45 AM
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#1365
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Glass Joe
Dwarf Priest
Arathor (EU)
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Originally Posted by PiousFlea
Re: Tymir
I've spent much time over the last two days thinking about this problem (lol) and it's an interesting thought experiment. I've come up with at least 6 wildly different ways to look at the problem. I suppose it's all moot with 3.0 as SWP will refresh itself, but I am morbidly fascinated at this point.
I don't believe it's fair to consider Mind Blast as a 6second cooldown in this scenario. Mind Blast and SW:P can conflict with each other no more frequently than every 24 seconds (the duration of SWP). Whether you Mind Blast every
5.5 seconds or every 8 seconds, you can cause a delay in Mind Blast no more than once every 24 seconds.
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Consider the ways in which you can refresh SWP:
1) SWP falls off, MB is still on cooldown. You cast SWP. Your MB cooldown is unchanged, and you lose no SWP uptime.
2) SWP falls off, MB just came off cooldown. You cast SWP and then MB. Your MB cooldown is delayed 1.5sec.
3) SWP falls off, MB just came off cooldown. You cast MB and then SWP. You have lost 1.5sec of SWP uptime, and your next SWP will come 1.5sec late.
We will ignore situation #1 because it doesn't affect anyone. Let's again consider Alice (SWP first) and Bob (MB first). Let's say that over a certain period of time, both Alice and Bob have encountered 5 SWP/MB conflicts:
Alice: MB's cooldown has been delayed by 7.5 seconds. SWP has not lost any casting time.
Bob: MB has not lost any casting time. SW:P has lost 7.5sec of uptime.
Woohoo, you say - Bob has gained 2,900 damage from that extra Mindblast, while Alice has lost 2.5 ticks of SW:P for 1600 damage. It's good to prioritize MB over SW:P!
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Stop. Reality check.
Bob's total casting time is 7.5 seconds longer because he has let SWP fall off for 7.5 seconds! Alice's casting rotation takes less time because she can reapply SWP more frequently. We are effectively comparing a 24 second cast rotation to a 25.5 second cast rotation - apples and oranges! It is misleading to directly compare the two.
The truth is even trickier than this. The fact is, most of the time there will be no conflict between SW:P and MB and both players will refresh SW:P exactly the moment it falls off. (this is a thought experiment, so both of them can have 0msec effective lag. Maybe I should rename them Cameron and Cromartie.) Sometimes Alice will have a conflict and Bob won't - Alice will fall further behind in MB cooldown but Bob will not lose any SWP uptime. Sometimes Bob will conflict and fall behind, while Alice has no conflict and loses nothing.
If you look at a graph of total damage dealt, at every point from 1.5sec to 24sec, Bob will appear to be 1.5 seconds ahead of Alice. However, Alice gets to refresh SWP 1.5 seconds earlier. If you consider a DPS cycle as starting by refreshing SWP, Bob's DPS cycle is 1.5 seconds slower than Alice's. This is true if the conflict happens right away (24sec vs 25.5sec rotation), but also if the conflict takes several full cast rotations. (ie 72sec vs 73.5sec rotation)
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The Answer.
There is only one point at which Alice and Bob can be directly compared. This is after Bob has delayed SW:P by 24 full seconds - that's 16 SWP/MB conflicts. At this point, Bob is ready to cast his Nth SW:P. His SW:P timer is 24 seconds behind Alice. This means that Alice is ready to cast her (N+1)th SW:P.
How many additional Mind Blasts has Bob gained over Alice?
The answer is surprising: Exactly one.
Other than MB and SW:P, Bob and Alice cast exactly the same number of other spells. Therefore, if Alice has cast one additional SW:P, Bob will have cast one additional MB. No matter how improbable this seems, it is logically certain.
What happened the 24 seconds shorter cooldown on Mind Blast? It's an illusion. Bob purchased a 24 second shorter Mind Blast cooldown at the expense of spending 24 seconds longer to cast his spells. In the end he only comes out one Mind Blast ahead, and it doesn't matter what the cooldown of MB is .
Don't believe me? Run a sim or better yet, construct a simple Excel spreadsheet. You will find I am 100% correct.
I made a dead-simple spreadsheet where you can only cast two spells (Mind Blast and SWPain) and time is divided into 1.5second quanta. There are two columns, one which prioritizes MB and one which prioritizes SWP. You can plug in any values for Mind Blast cooldown and SWP duration and you will get one of three scenarios:
1) The "MB first" rotation is grossly more efficient than SW:P first. (less conflicts)
2) The "SWP first" rotation is grossly more efficient than MB first.
3) The rotations are roughly equal, and for every extra MB you get, you lose a full-duration SWP.
What's interesting is that scenario #3 is what happens under "realistic" conditions of 24sec SWP and 6sec MB CD. #1 and #2 are unrealistic in any case, because your filler spell rotation is unpredictable, and combined with lag this will tend to equalize the overall number of conflicts.
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under your calculations how long, in a straight stand up fight, before you have to make this choice 16 times?
Last edited by bol : 09/18/08 at 7:16 AM.
Reason: not enough thought given to reply
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