You can get the number of CoH or any spell cast in game. Most DPS meters (though surprisingly not recount) keep a track of how many of a particular spell you have cast. I use a damage meter that came with another addon I am using and it does tell me how many times I cast a particular spell. I use the healing values from recount to calculate HPM. From that I can tell how many targets I am hitting with AoE spells and how many ticks I get per cast from PoM and renew.
WWS will not give you this information.
As far as holy reach is concerned, instead of arguing about particular fights here is a simple calculation that tells you what conditions are required before holy reach gives you a better return for CoH than another talent.
The main competitors for holy reach would be, divine specialisation, spell warding and mental agility.
Mental agility reduces mana cost by 4% per two ranks. HPM increases by 4.2%.
Two ranks in spellwarding decrease elemental damage taken by 4%.
Divine specilisation increases HPS/HPM by 0.6% per two ranks.
If you hit x additional targets due to holy reach every y CoH with an average of n targets per CoH. Then HPS/HPM increases by x/(y*n)
For x=1, t=4.9, n = 10, this is a 2% increase in HPM/HPS.
If you are hitting 4.9 targets per CoH you need holy reach to enable you to hit 1 target every 30 casts for it to give you an equal increase in HPS/HPM to divine specialisation.
If you are hitting 4 per CoH targest then holy reach is equal to divine specialisation for CoH, when you hit 1 additional target every 40 casts. If you are hitting 3/CoH, then the equivalence point is at 55 casts. This needs to be normalised for the % of healing accounted for by CoH/PoH compared to GH/FH
If you are taking 100k elemental damage CoH needs to hit 4 additional targets (at 2000+healing) over the course of the whole fight to give you as much healing as you save from 2 points in spellwarding.
Given how easy respeccing is (and how much gold most Sunwell guilds' banks have) there's no reason to have to choose. Just spec whichever is most useful for whatever encounter is progression (CoH for Kalecgos, IDS for Brut, CoH for Felmyst, etc.).
I don't see how IDS is better for Brut. On Brutallus you would want to have 5/5 empowered healing, 5/5 holy spec for inspiration crits. If you go IDS you cannot get 5/5 empowered healing.
I cannot think of a fight to date where IDS is warranted speccing over CoH.
As for the whole holy reach debate, if you spec CoH you should definitely have 2/2 no questions asked.
Of course you have 5/5 holy specialization for Brut. However, given that I found I had zero trouble healing that encounter (I was burn healing with a druid helping out for whatever that's worth) and we killed him 1 second before the enrage, I would certainly say that the extra DPS provided by IDS is worth more than a small increase in my greater heals.
In my opinion, 2 points in empowered healing versus IDS is a very easy decision (IDS wins). CoH versus IDS is a hard decision. In most Brutallus strats the shamans do the raid healing rendering CoH unnecessary, so the decision becomes easy.
All this really goes back to the age old question of why DS has not been moved into the holy tree.
I would guess that the answer to this question is "well, we'll just give you a reason to bring a full discipline priest", although I certainly wouldn't complain if they made DS/IDS more accessible in WotLK.
I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here, seeing that in most BT fights raid groups are going to be standing still inside the center of those circles, making the outer ring entirely irrelevant. Unless you run with some completely different strats for Najentus, Gorefiend, Bloodboil, RoS, Shahraz, and Illidan P2.
Some people are visual learners so I figured I'd throw around a visual.
2/2 Holy reach increases your chance of hitting extra targets, if you feel like having a less efficient CoH then don't take the points. If you want to make the most out of arguably our strongest spell (PoM - Binding Heal) then you need to get 2/2 Holy reach.
Some people are visual learners so I figured I'd throw around a visual.
2/2 Holy reach increases your chance of hitting extra targets, if you feel like having a less efficient CoH then don't take the points. If you want to make the most out of arguably our strongest spell (PoM - Binding Heal) then you need to get 2/2 Holy reach.
And the point is that CoH is equally efficient in the situations I listed with or without 2/2 Holy Reach. It's not like having the extra radius will suddenly make you hit more than all the targets in the group.
Anyway, this has really been beaten and dragged far deeper into the ground than is necessary. At this point, I'm sure everyone is more than informed enough to make their own decision with respect to this particular talent.
Of course you have 5/5 holy specialization for Brut. However, given that I found I had zero trouble healing that encounter (I was burn healing with a druid helping out for whatever that's worth) and we killed him 1 second before the enrage, I would certainly say that the extra DPS provided by IDS is worth more than a small increase in my greater heals.
In my opinion, 2 points in empowered healing versus IDS is a very easy decision (IDS wins). CoH versus IDS is a hard decision. In most Brutallus strats the shamans do the raid healing rendering CoH unnecessary, so the decision becomes easy.
Yeah, my raid currently has the Holy priests on the tanks while a Shaman solo heals the raid, so there's really no need for a CoH priest for this particular encounter at all.
Well this is my first post on these forums and will not be my last,
As a raiding holy priest, I have used these forums a lot over the last couple of months.
Well anyway... I agree with what you’re saying Uh...ok about on brut... I am normally a raid healer on most bosses but Brut, I have found that priest are best used on the tanks and shaman on raid, with doing this I don’t see a problem at all by having a spec of 23/38/0 for it.. Since you will not be raid healing since it isn't your job to do so.
Once the boss is dead go respec, I don’t think anyone here is poor and what’s 100g... I know myself that gold is easy to get now days and if that is the main reason people are QQing about respecing then well.... dailies are your friend.
On a completely different note, Being from Australia and having a ping of 250ish while raiding I wanted to know the viability of stacking haste when I still need stop casting macro's to get the cast to stop before time and start in time, I was thinking that would it be more useful to not stack haste at all unless given by T6 items and so forth and just stack pure healing/spirit Vs Haste, if anyone has any links to where this has been talked about please show me.
And the Age old battle between using 10spirit and 11healing/5spirit gems... seeing as now I am in sun well and getting a lot of new loots and so forth. What is the Cap that your wanting to get on your +healing before not worrying about what it is and start stacking more spirit or more intellect. I have heard from people that it's around the 2300 n 2400 mark.
Sorry if the topics I have bought up are old news, just wanted to give my 5c worth,
I have found that sunwell you really need all your priests and shamans on raid healing and your pallys/druids follow suit doing the opposite and tank healing.
Deathic, spell haste is definitely worth it as I saw on your website (VERY nice btw) you guys are in sunwell so you should have access to the haste gear, or at least starting to have access to it.
I have found that sunwell you really need all your priests and shamans on raid healing and your pallys/druids follow suit doing the opposite and tank healing.
Misleading and untrue. Priests are excellent tankhealers and Druids are spectacular on raidhealing some places. Don't really know where you have your information from, but you can't really say that you need all Priests and Shamans on the raid. In fact, it's kind of stupid not to have a Holy Priest on tanks on a number of occasions in Sunwell (here's a hint for you: PoM).
Originally Posted by uh...ok
Anyway, this has really been beaten and dragged far deeper into the ground than is necessary. At this point, I'm sure everyone is more than informed enough to make their own decision with respect to this particular talent.
Agree on that. I will be more careful next time I say a talent is mandatory!
Last edited by Bjork : 06/11/08 at 12:27 AM.
Reason: Grammar
Priests are good tank healers. But they are also better raid healers than paladins and usually better than druids. This means that in a typical raid composition it makes the most sense to have the priests raid healing because tank healing is done by the paladins with druid HoT support.
Misleading and untrue. Priests are excellent tankhealers and Druids are spectacular on raidhealing some places. Don't really know where you have your information from, but you can't really say that you need all Priests and Shamans on the raid. In fact, it's kind of stupid not to have a Holy Priest on tanks on a number of occasions in Sunwell (here's a hint for you: PoM).
Not necessarily untrue, our pallys and druids are great with tank healing, and our priests/shammys are great at raid healing. That's not to say that is all they do as my healers are skilled enough to be multi-faceted. I don't need PoM hints, everyone knows it is a phenomenal spell. However, the fact of the matter is Pallys cannot contend with the raid healing that a shaman or priest can. In fact, Pallys maybe more than any other healers have been left in the dust come sunwell, though I do love 1.75 second holys for 10k.
Priests are good tank healers. But they are also better raid healers than paladins and usually better than druids. This means that in a typical raid composition it makes the most sense to have the priests raid healing because tank healing is done by the paladins with druid HoT support.
I will challenge that and say not in every circumstance. There is one senario where priests absolutely shine: Healing a small amount of active damage sources. In a senario of 2-3 people tanking simultaneously or tank + constant active damage source priests are the best tank healers.
Also at 2.5k+ healing, 700 spi the loss of 2 points in empowered healing for IDS is something like 2% HPS. In constrast 5/5 divine spec gives you 0.3*5 = 1.5% more HPS. To balance out the loss of HPS from EH, you would need 2 more healers on the tank.
IDS gives a raid 0.5-1% more DPS depending on how many casters you have.
1% more DPS means you save (0.01/1.01*fight time) seconds. For a 6'10'' fight you save 0.01/1.01*370 = 3.66 seconds.
0.5% more DPS means you save 0.005/1.005*370 = 1.84 seconds.
The argument for priest as tank-healers is not PoM (and renew) since you can start it on the tank even while raidhealing. But if your tanks are not at the armor-cap a priest (or shaman!) healing the tank can give inspiration which palas and druids cant.
Heh, we run priest heavy and end up with priests both tank healing and raid healing.
But I've got a gripe, anyone noticed that almost all Sunwell gear upgrades come with a Stamina loss?
I've really started to feel the pain of this on the Twins, the one fight where I still wear more stamina. Every single slot of upgrade so far has been at a stamina loss.
It's kind of counter-intuitive to have more stamina in BT gear. Anyone else noticing this? Or how are you guys addressing this?
I think for the most part, this is a non-issue so far except for the Twins. Albeit, I haven't seen Kil'jaeden yet, either.
I've really started to feel the pain of this on the Twins, the one fight where I still wear more stamina. Every single slot of upgrade so far has been at a stamina loss.
It's kind of counter-intuitive to have more stamina in BT gear. Anyone else noticing this? Or how are you guys addressing this?
I think for the most part, this is a non-issue so far except for the Twins. Albeit, I haven't seen Kil'jaeden yet, either.
I wear two pieces of SR on Twins to increase survability. Don't have numbers on it, but think we came to the conclusion that 170ish SR (buffed) mitigate almost 50% of the dmg from Images.
I also wear [Boots of the Divine Light] with 2*12 stamina (and Boar's Speed as on all my boots) on Felmyst + stamina food. I'm currently rerolling to a different race and I guess I will use the AR-trinket on Felmyst on that toon in the beginning, to increase survability.
I also speced Spell Warding for a lot of fights during progress.
I know you can do all these fights without sacrificing healing output to gain survability through gear/talents, but I like to stay alive. Rumours say that I heal more than dead people.
Originally Posted by Havoc12
Also at 2.5k+ healing, 700 spi the loss of 2 points in empowered healing for IDS is something like 2% HPS. In constrast 5/5 divine spec gives you 0.3*5 = 1.5% more HPS. To balance out the loss of HPS from EH, you would need 2 more healers on the tank.
Eh what? Two more healers on the tank? I don't understand what you are trying to say.
Anyway 5/5 Empowered Healing is not that good. Number of heals is more important than the size of them (when we're talking about this gear-level). Yes, 5/5 is nice and all, but I'd rather have regen from Divine Spirit on any encounter.
Not necessarily untrue, our pallys and druids are great with tank healing, and our priests/shammys are great at raid healing. That's not to say that is all they do as my healers are skilled enough to be multi-faceted. I don't need PoM hints, everyone knows it is a phenomenal spell. However, the fact of the matter is Pallys cannot contend with the raid healing that a shaman or priest can. In fact, Pallys maybe more than any other healers have been left in the dust come sunwell, though I do love 1.75 second holys for 10k.
You said: "I have found that sunwell you really need all your priests and shamans on raid healing and your pallys/druids follow suit doing the opposite and tank healing." That is both misleading and untrue. Everybody knows that a stack of LB and a Pala spaming the tank is great, there's just no need to draw any broad conclusion based on that. Every encounter except KJ has it's own thread here now, better go there and suggest Healing Setup.
This is like saying "you need 3-4 Resto Shamans in Sunwell". Yes, Resto Shamans are great, but it's untrue that you need 3-4 of them and misleading because some places other healing classes are better on doing the raidhealing.
Thank you number crunchers and theory crafters. It seems every time a topic comes up about 'why' I have decided on a certain spec (e.g. changed to CoH when I got [Crystal Spire of Karabor]), or when I changed my gems to [Purified Shadowsong Amethyst] or the latest, “why” I wanted two [Blessed Band of Karabor], I can come here for hard numbers to help explain my reasoning.
It is interesting that topics seem to cycle here with those I need, the most recent is explaining the radius/diameter theory of CoH…..thanks for the lesson, it is so much easier to explain and much more accepted when I can present numbers with my explanations.
You said: "I have found that sunwell you really need all your priests and shamans on raid healing and your pallys/druids follow suit doing the opposite and tank healing." That is both misleading and untrue. Everybody knows that a stack of LB and a Pala spaming the tank is great, there's just no need to draw any broad conclusion based on that. Every encounter except KJ has it's own thread here now, better go there and suggest Healing Setup.
This is like saying "you need 3-4 Resto Shamans in Sunwell". Yes, Resto Shamans are great, but it's untrue that you need 3-4 of them and misleading because some places other healing classes are better on doing the raidhealing.
Bjork, I'd really appreciate comments without belittling.
How is me saying "I have found priests and shamans on raid healing etc. etc..." misleading and untrue?
Sure for Brutallus we change that around as the armor bonus' are great. But on Felmyst, Kalec, Trash we always seem to follow that general rule of thumb. Mind you we don't have many shaman/priests and we have plenty of pally/druids so it varies nightly pending on who is online.
Also I don't think you need 3-4 resto shamans in sunwell. I have never stated that, I actually prefer a balance of the four healing classes which allows you to be more flexible and take the strengths from each of the different classes.
Mos classes gain roughly 20 - 40 spell damage or healing, some even less. Priests and druids obviously benefit the most and in all honest 80 healing is not that great.
As such, depending on your current raid setup and the players you have (heavy caster or heavy melee) you may want in IDS priest. We have found that switching our IDS priest to CoH has had a great effect on our success.
At this point the 50 spirit is more valuable to me for certain Sunwell encounters (Twins and onward specifically) than the actual +healing element of IDS. It's like having another regen flask and works even better with [Flask of Distilled Wisdom].
06/10/08, 9:25 AM
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