Raid buffed my regen is around 1100 with mp5 at 437. I use the Darkmoon Blue Dragon card, chain pot, and rarely get a shaman or spriest. I don't OOM. Depending on the card proc, I don't need mana pots on fights like Naj OR Bloodboil. (3 CoH priests usually for BB, I do need to chain pot when there is only 2 of us).
I have not had mana problems or issues for BloodBoil, Council, or any other BT raid. (hopefully Illidan attempts this week) RegenFu usually shows me casting 88-90% of the time (which I would agree with).
However, my +heal is lower by about 75-100 than the other two holy priests.
I completely agree that where you're needed in raid is what you should gear for. I discussed back when we were starting SSC with the raid leader that my goal was to be self mana-sufficient. Why? The 'healing group' gets a shadowpriest, and I can sit with a hunter / ranged dps group and enjoy the gift of drums.
If I was to cut down my regen too much, it would make things more difficult for the raid leader on healing intensive fights to assign me to an already full and mana rich healing group. Having ONE priest spec to mana regen in the raid increased our entire raids healing throughput by allowing a spriest/shammy to be put into the healing 'group' for mana. Being the only human priest... I can really take advantage of the +10% spirit bonus.
In regards to the Darkmoon Blue Dragon card. Does it works in the same way that eye of gruul does for COH? Or is it a static 2% chance across the board?
In our raids we generally have at least 2 Spriests and swap groups around as needed on a fight by fight basis. I stacked healing all the way up through BT and found myself going OOM on Najentus and bloodboil. While I still topped the charts, sitting there out of mana wasnt something that benefitted me. Ive since regemmed and picked up a few different pieces of gear in an attempt to be more self sufficient once we start raiding sunwell hardcore. Ive also serisouly been considering powerleveling alchemy for the stone. Can anyone give me a ballpark figure on what it would cost gold wise to level it up all the way and to create the stone?
Funny how races are of different value here. I envy you for your spriit bonus. You dont have to stack as much spirit as I have to get to the same regen-level. But if I get one big oh-shit-situation in 3min I can use troll-berserker and can cast 10%-30% faster for 10s without gearing for it or getting help from somebody else. Most oh-shit-situations are cleared after 10s one way or the other.
I have to chain-pot on Naj and even than have to work hard for not going oom. (It WOULD help, if the group-setup would allow the use of either PoH or CoH on the group I'm assigned.)
Darkmoon card procs of cast, not spell hit. (ie: Not like the Eye of Gruul). A 10minute fight for ME sees 3-4 procs. My raid buffed 1100 regen = 3300 mana per proc. SO, a 10 minute fight is basically a double mana potion. (My chain potting + the card proc).
However, the card can proc at any time (like when you're full), and you can't ask for it on demand. I find it has the best use for fights such as Naj, BB, Vashj phase3 and Council; where you are casting almost all the time anyway.
Eye of Gruul + Darkmoon Blue Dragon + Mana pots = no worry for OOM during a COH spam-fest. (In reality, maybe not even needing to chain pot)
Ive also serisouly been considering powerleveling alchemy for the stone. Can anyone give me a ballpark figure on what it would cost gold wise to level it up all the way and to create the stone?
850g for the herbs and another 400g for the mats to make the stone, assuming your AH isn't nuts, and you take your time pre-buying mats when available, ignoring the price gougers.
I bought two full sets when I did mine, and did the whole thing for 1500g (made my own Primal Mights, which saved a bit of money). I still have the 2nd set in the bank in case I ever need to drop a profession to pick up Enchanting, and want to re-level it.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
Last night, my guild had the Robes of eternal light pattern drop while doing sunwell. I cannot decide if i should use those robes or continue using my t6 robes. There are subtle upgrades and declines to making the transfer from T6 to robes of eternal light. I'd appreciate any insight of thoughts anyone could give me.
It really depends on whether you're losing 4pT6 from dropping the robes or not. I personally think that the [Robe of Eternal Light] are better than the [Vestments of Absolution] once you factor in the effects of haste, especially for a CoH priest regardless of the 4pt6 bonus. With spirit gems their mana regen is comparable to the Vestments, so it's really a matter of how much you like raw spirit vs 40 haste.
It really depends on whether you're losing 4pT6 from dropping the robes or not. I personally think that the [Robe of Eternal Light] are better than the [Vestments of Absolution] once you factor in the effects of haste, especially for a CoH priest regardless of the 4pt6 bonus. With spirit gems their mana regen is comparable to the Vestments, so it's really a matter of how much you like raw spirit vs 40 haste.
I agree. I dont have either piece yet, but as I understand the math behind the regen the difference between these two pieces isn't a whole lot. With the Robes of Eternal Light you also pick up 40 Spell haste. As I see it (assuming you socket +10 saphires in the blue sockets in both pieces) the 30 spirit and 18 mp5 is about equal( if not a little better) to the 56 raw spirit on the t6. Sure the t6 still has 8 mp5 but consider that your trade off for 40 spell haste. I could be wrong though.
Could someone whos really good with the number crunching confirm/deny?
So the question is: do you think 30 spell haste is worth 26 Mp5 OO5SR? (it is) Otherwise, the I5SR regen, the HSE, and the stats are a wash.
The reason I'm not wearing them is that the guild bank needed the money more than I needed a temporary upgrade: I'm still waiting for M'uru to drop [Robes of Faltered Light], which are my end-game choice.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
(Actually, given the proper group, you would be surprised at how easy it is to get to the point where you can spam max rank gheals and coh. I believe Robble made a post a few pages back showing some maths about this.)
Short answer: whether you can chaincast any given spell (even CoH) has more to do with whether you get a resto shaman and/or a shadow priest than your actual regen. This is partly why no one can quite agree on how much regen you need: if you get both of those, then you have no need for regen at all; if you get one, you might or might not depending on how judicious you are with canceling/FSR ticks; if you get neither, then you're wondering how the hell the other two groups get along without it.
That's one of reason why I'm very skeptical about "I never run out of mana" posts. I rarely give myself SPs, sometimes even without Shamans, almost no innervates - and I base my regen on this. As I started adding bit more haste, it became even more evident to me, how important those things are. If you stack everything in your favor, than sure, it becomes possible, but there is more than 1 healer in raid.
It doesn't even come down to how many healers are in the raid. Due to balance issues (and our shamans routinely quitting), we run a consistent balance of 4 shamans. Occasionally we have 5: new enhancement recruit means we finally have that option regularly.
So if you have 4 shamans in the raid (1 enh, 1 ele, 2 resto), guess who doesn't get one? Healer group.
We run 2 shadow priests in the raid. We also run 3-4 warlocks, 2-3 mages, and 1 ele shaman. Guess who doesn't get the shadow priest? Healer group.
We're all used to never getting Mana Spring and VT by now. On the random days I get either/both, I have so much mana I don't know what to do with it. It's loverly. But those days are rare, so everything is focused around my own personal regen, not Regen + 300 + ~70. The shadow priest is the huge one: the regen from a good Sunwell-geared shadow priest is almost as high as my own personal raid-buffed I5SR regen. It almost DOUBLES your regen, and makes any question of stacking regen completely moot.
But it's also better given to warlocks/mages if you want your dps to perform, so healers just learn to do without. WotLK will give us some better group synergies, hopefully, so group setups will be slightly easier to make for healers.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
We generally run with 2 Spriests, some nights were lucky and all 3 show up and make it a moot point. Generally though when we only have 2 though 4 healers get a spriest and the mages get the other. The warlocks can tap and in our raids opinion do not warrant the regen since we can toss a few renews/ lifeblooms on em. The nights where we have all 3 Spriests are awesome especially since we tend to run caster heavy. Our meele/ranged consists of 1 or 2 rogues 1 or 2 tards a fury warrior and an enhancement shammy. The rest is locks and mages. The extra spriests also let us drop a healer or two for most of BT since mana is a non issue for the whole raid and we fly through it much faster. I've found that the only fights I need the spriest on anymore are Najentus BB and Reliquary since they are coh spam fests and i dont have my gruul trinket or Blue dragon card.
Also I manged to get the mats together and made Swift heal Mantle last night. Thoughts on that piece for beggining of sunwell in comparison to t6?
As with constantius we very much run the same, about 4 shamans and again our healer group doesn't get it. We run 1 melee group and 2 caster groups, so both caster groups get the shadow priests.
To be honest, I enjoy the heroism buff from a shaman more than I do their regen buffs
Then again, I'm finding each week I enjoy haste more and more.
I guess when it comes down to it, if the entire raid is chain potting DPSers will be using haste/destruction pots, and we (along with maybe Ret paladins) will be using mana potions. Perhaps, or maybe it is time to just recruit a third shadow priest.
The warlocks can tap and in our raids opinion do not warrant the regen since we can toss a few renews/ lifeblooms on em.
This doesn't really fit in our thread, but this statement is patently false. Ask a good warlock about how useful a shadow priest is in their group, and how much it increases their dps. Hint: it's as much as a mage gets from it. Tapping is a complete dps loss -- the GCDs are 100% wasted. A shadow priest cuts down on that loss in a very real way, similarly to how a shadow priest allows a mage to use Destro pots instead of Super Mana.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
This doesn't really fit in our thread, but this statement is patently false. Ask a good warlock about how useful a shadow priest is in their group, and how much it increases their dps. Hint: it's as much as a mage gets from it. Tapping is a complete dps loss -- the GCDs are 100% wasted. A shadow priest cuts down on that loss in a very real way, similarly to how a shadow priest allows a mage to use Destro pots instead of Super Mana.
I understand it will lower their dps to life tap, however since lifetap more or less turns OUR mana into THEIR mana, it IS a viable option for them where as once the mages have exhausted their cool downs they are wanding for 50 gcd's to regen. In a flat out dps race i would have to agree with you, however it seems to me that in many fights that us healers are far better served by having the mana coming in than the warlocks. Healers not going OOM can be the difference between dps or the tank dying. One dead dps'r is alot more dps lost than a few gcd's to life tap. Every fight ive been thorugh so far in tbc with the exception of P3 reliquary good healing at the end can buy you the time you need to recover a little lost dps.
For us 2 Coh priests a resto shammy a tree druid and a shadow priest make BT clears cake walks in the healing dept. The 4 of us in that group routinely do 65% or more of the healing, so we were able to cut 2 healers out for most of BT. Needing less healers means more dps can be brought into the fight increasing overall raid dps which outweighs a few gcds for life tap aswell.
It could just be the content level that we are on speaking though. We have only gotten Kalecgos to 35% where as your clearing end game. Its very possible my opinion on this will change once we are there as well
I just use mana potions on trash, as do our healers and it goes just as fast, if not faster (since DPS doesn't have to drink) if they have a shadow priest. Come to think of it, even the Brutallus fight I end the fight just at the end of my mana pool using 2 Inner Focus', 1 Shadow fiend, 3 Super mana potions (with a stone).
Perhaps other priests can help me with this, but in all of BT/Hyjal and the first three bosses in sunwell, there is not one fight where I will require a shadow priest. We have enough druids to throw around their innervates. Even those, are best used for shadow priests in my opinion.
It seems you have more druids available than we do. Were lucky to have two and the innervates almost always go to a Spriest. I think group comp probly has a lot to do with it as well. For our group comp were able to increase dps output by taking less healers. This is working for us in BT wonderfully. Now once we hit sunwell full time im completly open to the fact that this wont work as well anymore. So far though this has worked for us and weve rolled through content very quickly. It may not work for others. Im sorry if I've started an argument it wasnt my goal.
OBVIOUSLY Spriests are highly sought after in any group with mana users. There will probly always be disagreement on how best to utilize them. Several healers in our guild are currently doing what we can to lessen our dependancy on them anyhow. I just need the ace to finish the beasts deck, im respecing alchemy this weekend after i get some farm time in and im still pugging gruuls everyweek hoping for the eye trinket. Were also trying to recruit another priest for IDS. Weve been running without it for close to 2 months.
It seems you have more druids available than we do. Were lucky to have two and the innervates almost always go to a Spriest. I think group comp probly has a lot to do with it as well. For our group comp were able to increase dps output by taking less healers. This is working for us in BT wonderfully. Now once we hit sunwell full time im completly open to the fact that this wont work as well anymore. So far though this has worked for us and weve rolled through content very quickly. It may not work for others. Im sorry if I've started an argument it wasnt my goal.
Innervates don't go to shadow priests except on: Illidari Council, M'uru. If a shadow priest needs an innervate on any other fight, they screwed up. They don't need one. End of story. The whole point of a shadow priest is mana regen: they have 250+ Mp5 coming in from their own dps, PLUS Mana Spring (since they're always paired with shamans). Innervates go to either mages who screwed up their rotations, or holy priests, thus allowing holy priests to be put in the crap groups: tank, healer without buffs, hunter, whatever. Just throw them in Group 6, it really doesn't matter.
Additionally, adding a shadow priest to a healer group really doesn't reduce the total number of healers you can bring to a raid in Sunwell. Most of the fights aren't based around "you need <x> amount of healer mana to get through the fight", it's more based around "you need <y> bodies to throw at the fight to get the healing covered". Adding a shadow priest to the *raid* can help through Improved VE, but that's really not the same thing at all.
Kalecgos: you need 8 healers, simply because you have 4 portal rotations, and asking one healer to heal a tank *and* raid is a bad bad bad idea. You could possibly do the fight with 7, but it would be nasty, and I don't know why you'd bother.
Brutallus: you can do this fight with random numbers of healers, and shadow priests added to the mix only reduce the number by doing healing through Imp VE, not necessarily returning mana. Paladins have effectively infinite mana on this fight anyway thanks to their incoming damage.
Felmyst: you basically want to bring 8 healers; dropping to 7 is possible through Imp VE again, but the mana return is a complete non-issue since Air Phase is pure regen time. Even paladins and shamans regen solid chunks of their mana during this phase.
Twins: you have to bring 8, 9 is preferred. Shadow priests can be a huge help for Imp VE, but the burst section of this fight is basically 2.5 minutes long; you shouldn't need a shadow priest to sustain healing for that long, no matter what class you are.
M'uru: we run with 6 healers, and only 1 gets a shadow priest. Manage your cooldowns. There's no way to drop to 5 healers on this fight without some crazy shenanigans, so adding a shadow priest wouldn't help -- it's a sustainability and throughput issue, not a regen one.
Kil'Jaeden: you can do this fight with 7 healers + 2 shadow priests, or, as we proved last night, 7 healers + 1 shadow priest. Regen is a complete non-issue on this fight thanks to Breath: Revitalize.
Conclusion: adding a shadow priest only reduces the total number of healers through Improved VE, not through increasing the regen of the healers you have. Throughput doesn't effectively increase on AE fights by adding shadow priests: your shamans and priests are already spamming non-stop CoH/CHeal anyway.
Last edited by constantius : 06/19/08 at 4:27 PM.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
Quick question, tried asking in the UI forums but got not reply, figured it also pertains to this board.
I tend to like to ToT heal alot in certain situations. Zul'jins grievous, Rage's icebolt, etc. I notice that using pitbull, I'll see the ToT swap sometimes, and other times there's no ToT switch, just the debuff out there. I've frapsed it just to make sure I'm not losing my concentration at the wrong point, it definitely happens.
Wondering if others have encountered the same, and if someone's worked out a way to get ToT to be more reliable.
Quick question, tried asking in the UI forums but got not reply, figured it also pertains to this board.
I tend to like to ToT heal alot in certain situations. Zul'jins grievous, Rage's icebolt, etc. I notice that using pitbull, I'll see the ToT swap sometimes, and other times there's no ToT switch, just the debuff out there. I've frapsed it just to make sure I'm not losing my concentration at the wrong point, it definitely happens.
Wondering if others have encountered the same, and if someone's worked out a way to get ToT to be more reliable.
I have absolutely no problems running Target, ToT, and ToToT on agUF. Might be a Pitbull problem.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
That's one of reason why I'm very skeptical about "I never run out of mana" posts. I rarely give myself SPs, sometimes even without Shamans, almost no innervates - and I base my regen on this. As I started adding bit more haste, it became even more evident to me, how important those things are. If you stack everything in your favor, than sure, it becomes possible, but there is more than 1 healer in raid.
I don't know how to respond to this except to say that I've yet to run into mana problems even with my current gemming experiment. And no, I rarely, if ever, get a shadow priest or a shaman in my group (exception: I do get a SP on Twins though I think I can manage without one; I get one on Felmyst simply for dispelling, though again, I can manage without one since I never pot on Felmyst), and the only time I get an Innervate is when a fight gets dragged out much longer than it was intended to. I mean, short of showing you all the WWS's of all of my past raids, I don't know if there's any way to convince you that this is true. :P
(oh, Armory shows me as having Blue Dragon equipped instead of Memento because I was CoH-MDing Felmyst the other night and I wanted to see how often Blue Dragon would proc on a CoH spammy fight)
Quick question, tried asking in the UI forums but got not reply, figured it also pertains to this board.
I tend to like to ToT heal alot in certain situations. Zul'jins grievous, Rage's icebolt, etc. I notice that using pitbull, I'll see the ToT swap sometimes, and other times there's no ToT switch, just the debuff out there. I've frapsed it just to make sure I'm not losing my concentration at the wrong point, it definitely happens.
Wondering if others have encountered the same, and if someone's worked out a way to get ToT to be more reliable.
I've only ever experienced problems with Rage not switching targets for icebolt. I use Pitbull too, but I don't think Pitbull is the culprit here since Grid also doesn't show the target switch happening either.
Quick question, tried asking in the UI forums but got not reply, figured it also pertains to this board.
I tend to like to ToT heal alot in certain situations. Zul'jins grievous, Rage's icebolt, etc. I notice that using pitbull, I'll see the ToT swap sometimes, and other times there's no ToT switch, just the debuff out there. I've frapsed it just to make sure I'm not losing my concentration at the wrong point, it definitely happens.
Wondering if others have encountered the same, and if someone's worked out a way to get ToT to be more reliable.
I have never encounted this problem. I always have the boss selected and monitor ToT and I have never had an issue with a boss using a special on another target without switching (xpt VR before fix). I also dont have an issue with jul'jin or rage casting without switching. I am using pitbul and I use mouseover macros to cast on boss target. Both of them have an animation when they target switch, so if I doing something else I just mouseover the target on the screen. It could be a lag issue, or pitbul getting stuck, see if focusing the boss and looking at focus target can do it. Another possibility is that the refresh rate on pitbul is somehow set too low.
You can also use a ToT macro and just observe the animations. Zul'jin P1 especially is one of those fights where mouseover on the screen works beatifully.
06/18/08, 1:24 PM
Similar Threads
