That is incorrect. Empowered healing increases the scaling. It does not gives you +healing. So so greater heal with empowered healing benefits from 3/3.5+empowered healing. The talent says "greater heals benefits from an additional 20% of your bonus healing" not "increases healing from greater heal by up to 20% of your bonus healing effects". So gheal benefits from 105.7142857% of your bonus healing effects instead of 102.8571429 that your formula predicts.
Edit: Oh I did not notice the missing zero thanks for pointing that out.
Or you could just heal them in other forms and they don't die nor stop DPSing. Mana is only an issue in that fight if you let it be - by lacking the DPS to kill him before time runs out. By stopping to click a charge, you're actually hurting the raid.
Exactly my thoughts. Mana isn't at a premium in that fight, time is. Wasting 6 seconds of potential dps time is not effective, imo.
I personally do not like the method you have used at all. It just tries to tailor your gear closer to your healing style and arrives at values that are only true given not only your current healing style but also your current gear.
That criticism is a bit unexpected to me. Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to do. Although I'm also trying to improve my healing style (I'm sure my spell selection could use some improvement, and thank you for the suggestions on Caribdis), I imagine my style isn't going to change all that much or all that quickly, so I might as well have the gear that fits with my current style. And yes, the weightings are based on my current gear, or more accurately, linearized around my current stat values. I don't think this is an unreasonable assumption, and it's the same assumption spreadsheets for all the other classes use. For example, the biggest upgrades available to me in the near future have less than 60 +healing equivalent (includes contributions from stamina and haste, which are a little more ad-hoc so I didn't explain their weightings above). This is very small compared to the stats on my gear as a whole. And this method isn't designed to give a one-time stat weighting, but rather, to be re-applied as we progress to new content and as my gear and healing style changes. We just started trying Naj'entus, and I think I will redo the stat weightings based on that fight, since it;s now the most healing-intensive fight we're doing.
I actually did use the formula you mention to calculate the proportion of GH3 versus GH7. There were only 12 total casts, since I used so many group heals, and I rounded the result to 6 each.
I will take into consideration your suggestion of using a real-time damage meter. I'm careful about adding too many addons, since I have memory issues and if I use more than the minimum required my framerate suffers. But if it's going to help me improve my healing I will see what other addons I can drop. You're probably right that using WWS and approximations significantly overvalues crit.
How did you come up with your required HPS target? Just look at the WWS, divide total damage taken by time, and then by number of healers? If that's the case, an interesting next question would be, by how much does each healer have to increase their output in order for the raid to take one more dps in place of a healer?
That criticism is a bit unexpected to me. Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to do.
The punch line is that EVERY method of determining a healing/regen equivalence is burdened by too many assumptions. Yours is no exception. Assuming that you heal in a particular proportion is slightly more problematic than assuming that you heal in a certain sequence, possibly, but it's not like there are many good options.
Your method (compute average HPM, multiply HPM by the gains from 1 mp5) is very sensitive to that particular spell breakdown, and to your assumptions about CoH/PoH (because they're contributing a significant amount of your healing done and therefore of your average HPM). In a different fight, like Morogrim (which has a much larger proportion of single-target healing), these numbers change rather significantly. It could be that Naj'entus is much less CoH friendly than your example. (It depends on your raid's strategy, to an extent; I tended to use PoH after shields and Flash Heal for triage, but you can configure your raid in such a way to make CoH useful.)
I agree with you that my method is very sensitive to spell breakdown. In fact, that was pretty much the point; I wanted to see what my spell breakdown was in a particular fight that taxed my healing abilities, and then see what stats would improve it. If I do it for a bunch of fights, I should be able to see what a reasonable range of possible stat weightings are.
Your pointing out that a fight with a larger portion of single target healing would give a different result made me realize that, the way my particular assignments tend to be, only those fights with a lot of AOE damage and group healing tend to tax my healing abilities at all. We have one resto shaman who raids occasionally and lots of holy priests, several of whom really like their DS spec; usually it's my job to raid heal. And what taxes me on Morogrim is healing the raid after an earthquake, which for me means casting mostly group heals (a PoH for my own group followed by a large number of CoHs to get the rest of the raid up). So for me Morogrim is not about single target healing at all. My breakdown for Morogrim has a higher proportion of CoHs compared to PoHs, and for Naj'entus has more PoHs compared to CoHs, but in both the vast majority of my healing is from group heals. On Solarian, A'lar, Lurker, etc., I do a lot of single target healing, but I cancel a lot of heals and usually have a nearly-full mana bar. Improved healing stats would not improve my raid's performance on those fights. The only fight that I see being a real exception to this is Leo, in which I mostly shield and overheal the warlock tank, and toss a large number of renews around the raid. Or Rage Winterchill, where honestly I'm still figuring out what my role is (though I know it involves a lot of PW:shields).
My guild has just downed Illidan and is gearing up for SWP.
Now that SWP has been open for some time, I was wondering if people had any comments on the minimum requirements for priests in SWP - both experienced and replacement/alt/new recruit priests? I'd like to be able to get a rough idea on benchmarks for our priests to determine whether we are approaching readiness or a long way off. Keep in mind that our tanks and DPS will also be at a similar gear level and will be effectively SWP rookies when we enter.
I'm guessing that we need our priests (usually 2 CoH and 1 IDS per 25 man) to be approaching rough raid buffed benchmarks of:
+Heal: 2300
Regen: 350/800
Health: 10k
Mana: 11k
I know these are generalisations and have slight variations based on spec, gear-style and play-style.
If you have IDS and your priests are under 400 Mp5 raid-buffed, smack them in the head and tell them to stop with the stupid. IDS is worth 21+ Mp5 I5SR, and there's no way with full consumables that any priest should be under 380 Mp5.
2300 HSE and 400 Mp5 are good benchmarks to aim for; don't really need to set a mana pool 'goal' really, and HP is pretty much what it is. You have gear, it has stam (or doesn't, as the case may be). There are very few items we can switch in to get our HP pool significantly higher without seriously losing stats. Exceptions include [Boots of the Divine Light] (Boar's Speed enchant) and [Apostle of Argus] or [Staff of Immaculate Recovery]. You can obviously gain some stamina from a neckpiece: if you're desperate to get higher, [Guardian's Pendant of Salvation] with a [Luminous Pyrestone] is not a bad choice.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
I'm interested in knowing exactly how Recount does it. I'm pretty sure that when you run two or more holy priests it's some kind of "random" factor who gets the credit for the majority of PoMs. (One holy priest credited for 100+ PoM on one try, other for 20ish - next try the other way around.) I don't know where I have this idea from, but I think Recount takes +healing into account and see how much PoM is hiting for and then giving credit to the "corrrect" priest - anyone?
Recount still miss some PoMs though, "No one" gets credit sometimes.
On a slightly different note, I think many underestimated Holy Priest's healing in the beginning of TBC because of lack of PoM tracking. It can be anything from 10-50% of my total healing, needless to say it was very unfair when lots of people used meters to judge player performance. Imagine the riot if Sinister Strike wasn't added to a Rogue's damage in WWS - that's actually a comparable percentage.
Disclaimers: I am not a trained programmer, just self taught. I am also not a computer person (molecular biology major). So if I got this wrong I apologise.
Right I tried to look through the recount code, but its just far too big and my time is at a premium. However there is an addon pom tracker which also tracks PoM. I suspect its doing it the same way as recount.
Its code its small enough for me to pick through quickly. Here is my understanding of how the mod tracks PoM.
1) When a pom is cast succesfully the addon checks to see who the source is. If the source is the player, it sets the number of charges PoM has to 5, stores the name of the current target on a local variable and sets some more local variables to tell the addon that a PoM has been cast (lets call them switches). If a successful cast lands on the current target it deletes everything as your pom has been overwritten.
2) If the switches have been turned on, when a PoM heals, the addon checks to see if the healed target is the current PoM target. If it is its obviously your target, so it attributes the heal to you. It decrements the charges on PoM and turns on a new switch that tells the addon to look for the next pom target
3) When an "aura" is applied to a player, the addon checks to see if its a prayer of mending. If it is and the switch that tells the addon to look for the next pom target is on, it checks if the target that got the pom is friendly (with respect to the player running the addon). If it is friendly then the addon checks the number of charges remaining on the pom. If the number of charges is as predicted. It sets the new target as the current target and turns all switches that tell the addon to check for new targets off.
4) When an aura is lost from a player, the addon checks if its PoM. If it is and the person that lost the aura is the current target and the switches that tell the addon to look for a new target is off, it turns the switch on.
Basically the addon stores the current PoM target and if that player gets healed by PoM it knows that this PoM came from the player running the addon and the next aura gain event will be the new pom target.
The accuracy of this method depends solely on how the events are organised. If all 3 events are chained, i.e. they all fire one after the other without any other similar event getting in between I would say its fairly accurate.
I suspect recount does a similar thing, only it stores the original caster in a library and checks all pom procs to see who it belonged to so it can attribute it properly.
Along with the [Boots of the Divine Light] that you mentioned, I also keep [Garments of Temperance] in my bag as an extra Stamina piece as well, so that I can gain a good bit of HP over [Gown of Spiritual Wonder] and not completely lose healing/regen value like the SR gear does (despite providing a high amount of stamina.)
Food buffs is another great source of extra stamina - trading 44 healing from [Golden Fish Sticks] for 30 stamina from [Spicy Crawdad] is certainly a better tradeoff than putting on a piece of SR gear just for the stamina.
What are your thoughts on keeping 4-piece T6 combined with the Sunwell set?
Obviously the three new pieces from Sunwell are a must have, but for the fourth piece I intended on using the T6 shoulders and then swapping in the Twins shoulders whenever I want more haste.
My current plan is to run shoulder, bracer, belt, boot T6; KJ helm, KJ gloves, M'uru chest, Kalecgos legs. Basically full-time. Maybe *once* in a while I'll switch in Twins shoulders, if I'm doing primarily CoH -- Twins and Felmyst, basically. Every other fight I do way too many GH to afford to lose the set bonus.
That + KJ staff + trash wand + ZA neck is about 265 haste; one more item gets me to the classic "20% cast speed reduction".
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
My setup will be identical to Nid's, however, I'm the resident CoH whore and my job is usually to make big numbers happen. I'll likely drop the T6 bonus for the haste unless Nid is sick and I have to Sentinel Tank heal on M'uru. That's the only instance in which I feel the T6 bonus is absolutely necessary in SW, provided you have SWready gear--because you have no other direct heals to help you usually.
First let me explain. The technically right answer on whether or not to 4pc T6 is: Yes. Keep the shoulders because they're the smallest upgrade and grab everything else from SW. No one will say you're wrong when you're walking around with blindfolded faces on your shoulders and rabbit ears on your head.
Now, here is why i'm not going to follow it, and why--maybe--you might choose not to as well:
If you wanna talk numbers, look at your overheal generated from gheals and see if you can knock off 5%. If you're tank healing, it's probably gonna be at least 10%, usually much more. Now, think of your rationale for sticking with the T6 bonus. Probably something like "But that extra 5% could save a tank." To that, I find myself thinking "A steady stream of quicker heals would have kept the tank from ever dipping."
Other gheals targets are steady known-dmg targets like Twins Conflag, Felmyst Encapsulate, and Brutallus Burn. You know how much dmg is going to happen here and can rank accordingly. Is there a bit of mana to be saved from downranking with the T6 bonus up? Yes. But if you're serious about using consumables and have the skill to manage your mana (if you don't, zone out of SW immediately), mana isn't an issue until M'uru/KJ for priests.
Most of our tank healing is done by the Pally/Druid combo, usually with some Chainheals bouncing around the melee/tanks. That extra ~500 on your gheal is pretty much going to be lost if you're tank healing any fight but M'uru p1. I believe that if you go with a quicker steady gheal, you'll see fewer dips in single target health. It comes down to what you think will save your target.
If you wanna talk numbers, look at your overheal generated from gheals and see if you can knock off 5%. If you're tank healing, it's probably gonna be at least 10%, usually much more. Now, think of your rationale for sticking with the T6 bonus. Probably something like "But that extra 5% could save a tank." To that, I find myself thinking "A steady stream of quicker heals would have kept the tank from ever dipping."
No amount of haste on a single item is going to give anywhere near 5% more throughput/HPM to gheal. More importantly although haste improves throughput linearly cast time is NOT reduced linearly. At 0% haste to 4% haste is a drop of 0.1 sec on gheal, 16% haste to 20% haste is a drop of 0.07sec. If you are using a very substancial amount of gheal in a fight, 5% more to gheal is so massive that it trumps any difference in haste from a single item. When you get to this level, the difference a single item (2% more haste) makes in the frequency of landed heals with haste, is below the ability of human beings to perceive. 5% more healing on the other had is anything but unnoticable. Its easily the difference between a rank6 and a rank7 gheal. If you can drop the 4t6 bonus for 2% more haste, you can (using the 4t6) downrank to gheal rank 6 without any noticeable difference in healing output. Dropping the 4t6 bonus for 2% haste is like dropping your mace for one with 70odd haste rating.
More healing is more healing. There is always a way to use it. Haste might be more effective but when the difference is so large, that the only logical choice is the +healing. Swap an less good item with more haste somewhere else. The difference is still most probably going to be the equivallent of having an extra item.
If a high amount of gheal is used in a fight, and since 3 items of the set are allegedly best in class, keeping the 4t6 bonus is a no brainer. Of course there might be other reasons why a sunwell priest might prefer to use a slightly better item in a single slot at the cost of the 4t6 bonus, but neither efficiency nor tank safely can possibly be one of them.
Obviously if you are not using gheal much, it makes no sense to use the 4t6 bonus.
Basically you're arguing that the 5% is useful. I never said it wasn't. Nor did I say that one piece of haste makes up for +5% gheals. What I did say was in my extensive SW experience, I feel there is one encounter where the bonus is absolutely necessary and many others where it's lost in overheal. I just don't think it's typically necessary. And I certainly don't think it saves lives in SW other than M'uru p1 where every heal is key and maybe KJ warlock healer (if it's a priest which we've found is pretty much the best answer)
If you're LEARNING, then yes. By all means, stack in your favor. But by the time you're making the decision to lose the bonus, you're already killing KJ and everything should be completely stable in most fights anyway. At this point, healing is infinitely easier and you know exactly what dmg is happening where. If you're guild utilizes priests as primary tank healers (ie, you don't have paladins) then there's no argument. But if you're like many guilds that maximize priests' amazing raidhealing, then you're looking at fewer gheals on most SW encounters.
Basically you're arguing that the 5% is useful. I never said it wasn't. Nor did I say that once piece of haste makes up for +5% gheals. What I did say was in my extensive SW experience, I feel there is one encounter where the bonus is absolutely necessary and many others where it's lost in overheal. I just don't think it's typically necessary. And I certainly don't think it saves lives in SW other than M'uru p1 where every heal is key and maybe KJ warlock healer (if it's a priest which we've found is pretty much the best answer)
If you're LEARNING, then yes. By all means, stack in your favor. But by the time you're making the decision to lose the bonus, you're already killing KJ and everything should be completely stable in most fights anyway. At this point, healing is infinitely easier and you know exactly what dmg is happening where. If you're guild utilizes priests as primary tank healers (ie, you don't have paladins) then there's no argument. But if you're like many guilds that maximize priests' amazing raidhealing, then you're looking at fewer gheals on most SW encounters.
Well not exactly, I was not saying its useful in an abstract way. I meant its useful in terms of your itemsation and healing tactics. I.e. you can get a better return from 5% more healing on gheal if you are ghealing a lot regardless of overheal than by taking an item that gives you 2% more haste. I am certainly not attempting to discuss sunwell or sunwell healing tactics.
What I am saying is: If you are using a lot of gheal, *regardless* of overheal and pretty much *regardless* of the nature of the fight 5% more healing on gheal >> 2% haste. You can for example get a second copy of another couple of items, gem them completely for haste and use it with the 4t6 bonus, because the massive 5% bonus ends up giving you a better return overall despite the loss of the socket bonuses. Just an example of course, I am not arguing that is what people should do.
I am just referring to a very basic rule. If an apple is worth 10 oranges and you want to get 30 oranges, if someone gives you a choice between getting an apple or an orange for free, you will choose the apple, even if you dont need it. The reason is that even if you manage to exchange it with 5 oranges (though its worth 10) you still get 5 oranges for free instead of 1.
In the same way you can use that 5% bonus to get a better return overall when you are using a lot of gheal.
weak metaphor. But if you reread my first post, I already stated your "what I am saying"s. I know the information. But I think about it this way: Was it hard to for me to give up the T5 bonus? Yes. When I got enough T6 to give it up, did I find myself missing the mana? Never.
Now. If I found myself in a position where I were going to spam gheals the entire encounter with no help, I'd swith to T6 bonus. Without a doubt. But that doesn't really happen much in SW. Even so, at the point anyone is going to be making this decision, they are going to likely have been killing M'uru and KJ quite some time. And at that point, really, it's just a matter of personal taste. And my personal taste isn't to keep a bonus the zone rarely lets me take advantage of. Especially when you're on farm content by that point
From "optimal" (T6 shoulders) to change to "good looking with 4-piece" (T6 legs, Shawl) is a net change of (raid-buffed, with IDS, just for kicks)
-14 Mp5 (I5SR)
-69 Mp5 (OO5SR)
-47 HSE
+33 Spell Haste
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
[Robes of Faltered Light]. That's my "what I'll be wearing as soon as M'uru stops being a tard" set. Just missing the robes from it, so I played a little creatively with the avatar.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
Now, here is why i'm not going to follow it, and why--maybe--you might choose not to as well:
If you wanna talk numbers, look at your overheal generated from gheals and see if you can knock off 5%. If you're tank healing, it's probably gonna be at least 10%, usually much more. Now, think of your rationale for sticking with the T6 bonus. Probably something like "But that extra 5% could save a tank." To that, I find myself thinking "A steady stream of quicker heals would have kept the tank from ever dipping."
Other gheals targets are steady known-dmg targets like Twins Conflag, Felmyst Encapsulate, and Brutallus Burn. You know how much dmg is going to happen here and can rank accordingly. Is there a bit of mana to be saved from downranking with the T6 bonus up? Yes. But if you're serious about using consumables and have the skill to manage your mana (if you don't, zone out of SW immediately), mana isn't an issue until M'uru/KJ for priests.
Most of our tank healing is done by the Pally/Druid combo, usually with some Chainheals bouncing around the melee/tanks. That extra ~500 on your gheal is pretty much going to be lost if you're tank healing any fight but M'uru p1. I believe that if you go with a quicker steady gheal, you'll see fewer dips in single target health. It comes down to what you think will save your target.
You are saying:
if (proportion of gheal == high) then
if (5% on gheal != more overheal) then
/equip 4t6
end
end
What I said is:
if (proportion of gheal == high) then
/equip 4t6
end
Reason: (5% on gheal != more overheal) == TRUE.
If you are saying that you can drop the 4t6 bonus even if you are ghealing a lot, because the 4t6 bonus gets lost in overheal, then its actually not true. The 4t6 bonus gives you a better return even if 99% of your gheals overheal. For an explanation of why this is true refer to above posts.
If you are saying that you can drop the 4t6 bonus because you are overgeared and the only way to increase your healing output now is to max out instants/CoH, with which the 4t6 bonus cannot help you with, that is not something I can comment on.
Now. If I found myself in a position where I were going to spam gheals the entire encounter with no help, I'd swith to T6 bonus. Without a doubt.
Apparently I wasn't clear enough. If you're going to be using gheals a lot and that's your style of play in sunwell on fights like Twins and Felmyst, then by all means do as you wish. I merely stated my reasoning that gheal isn't really as primary as it used to be, they way many guilds utilize healing class abilities in their setups. Although it's still very useful. It's up to you. You can make your own decisions. You really can. But again. By that time you have the available gear to MAKE that decision, it's all farm anyway so there's really no reason to go on and on about this. We've killed KJ and I'm still looking forward to making that decision down the line...the long line
A little off topic but, Schylla I'm wondering why you opted for Royal Amethysts in your gear instead of purified or +10 spirit in a lot of your sockets? Everywhere I read people are 'lawl'ing about priests in mp5 gems. Though i've found that most of the time I'm over 80% in FSR and according to Regenfu should be using mp5.. =/
07/01/08, 2:16 AM
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