Holy Raiding Compendium v2 - Page 51

Anedris · 05/25/08, 4:34 PM

I think that post is for the warlock's metamorphosis (demon) form which gets a special set of abilities.

I also certainly do hope that they just remove mana potions in that way. At the moment I feel like all my careful playing of the 5-second rule, my downranking, my avoidance of flash in favour of gheal unless I can't get away without using flash heal, and so forth is all pretty pointless. It's hard enough to run out of mana without chain-potting. With chain-potting there's no need for caution at all (caveat: I've only been as far as Kalecgos).

Really though, some of these new talents have to change. Unless I'm misreading the new improved holy concentration it looks like it would give us a 16% chance to gain 100% mana regen while casting for 10 seconds (oh, and a free heal as well). Does that strike anyone else as absurd?

constantius · 05/25/08, 5:10 PM

There is no way a raiding priest will have a moonkin aura in WotLK, given that their new aura has chance on crit to increase spell haste. That crazy-looking owl is going right into a dps caster group with a shadow priest, and staying there until the end of time.

Also, remember that at level 60, with Holy Spec, we were running 10-12% crit. Now, at level 70, with a lot more intellect (at least 100 for me, anyway), we're running 12-14%. Yes, you can put on a couple of items, but that doesn't push you more than a couple of percent.

To get to paladin levels, you basically need crit on almost everything you wear, *plus* socket for it. Do you all think Blizzard is going to magically start creating healing cloth that is balanced for priests with tons of crit on it, just because Disc has higher scaling to crit heals?

20% raid-buffed with a lot of stacking (gems, high-crit items, etc) is doable, but you're going to sacrifice for it. Remember that deep Disc does *not* get the new Holy Concentration, which seemingly is the primary regen tool of WotLK for holy. You are going to need enough regen to get through a fight ... you can't just sacrifice it all to get massive crit values. And before you say "well, just give me a shadow priest", remember that with raid compositions changing, it's doubtful there will be more than 2 shadow priests in a raid, and if a second one is brought, it will be for a second pure dps caster group for dps. With 10 classes and ~ 30 specs for 25 raid slots, there will be less stacking, unless what you bring to the table is truly obscene overpoweredness (read: restoration shamans

[e] from the way I read the new Holy Concentration, the 2nd and 3rd points put you up to 10%, not 10+6%. I could be wrong on that, but it would make sense. And if so, 1 in 10 spells is free, *and* restores an extra ~ 2000 mana. That's enough mana that potting is a thing of the past.

[e2] look for a site with harvested MPQ spell data, and look for "mana potion sickness". It's in there somewhere; 1 minute after using a mana pot, you lose *all* of your mana (not just what you gained) - i.e. you drop to 0 mana 60 seconds after using a pot. It better be worth it.

Kortar · 05/25/08, 7:36 PM

I'm a bit skeptical that these talents will make the final cut as well.

Consider the top end of the Holy tree. The combination of talents seems to encourage a Flash Heal-spam style of casting - switching to Binding Heal when the target is below 50% (irrelevent of whether or not the Priest themselves is damaged, due to the higher throughput on Binding Heal than Flash Heal). Given that the extraordinary mana regen provided by Improved Holy Concentration would essentially give Priests the kind of casting longevity Paladins have with Flash of Light, and Flash/Binding Heal are high enough throughput to be primary heals in the vein of Holy Light, why would anyone ever want a Paladin healer?

Starfire · 05/25/08, 7:44 PM

When I first read that talent, I thought it was some sort of anti-MS holy pvp talent. (I mean, we do get Blessed Resillience after all).

On second glance, I thought the talent would function similar to the Illidan mace proc.

And in regards to downranking, I don't think it will be that big of a deal given the ample new regeneration/longetivity talents and the 2.3 revamp to spirit.

Havoc12 · 05/25/08, 8:27 PM

Originally Posted by constantius

20% raid-buffed with a lot of stacking (gems, high-crit items, etc) is doable, but you're going to sacrifice for it. Remember that deep Disc does *not* get the new Holy Concentration, which seemingly is the primary regen tool of WotLK for holy. You are going to need enough regen to get through a fight ... you can't just sacrifice it all to get massive crit values. And before you say "well, just give me a shadow priest", remember that with raid compositions changing, it's doubtful there will be more than 2 shadow priests in a raid, and if a second one is brought, it will be for a second pure dps caster group for dps. With 10 classes and ~ 30 specs for 25 raid slots, there will be less stacking, unless what you bring to the table is truly obscene overpoweredness (read: restoration shamans

Disc priests will return mana to group so they can potentially go into DPS groups without mana pots, mana returning abilities will probably be a big deal for max DPS, especially if haste is factored in.

Also you need ~80 crit rating from gear to get ~20% crit at the T6 level of itemisation.

That is not particularly tough to get.

Bjork · 05/25/08, 9:27 PM

Originally Posted by constantius

Also, remember that at level 60, with Holy Spec, we were running 10-12% crit. Now, at level 70, with a lot more intellect (at least 100 for me, anyway), we're running 12-14%. Yes, you can put on a couple of items, but that doesn't push you more than a couple of percent.

I have almost 17% crit with 5/5 Holy spec. fully raid buffed. And no, I dont socket for crit.

I'm afraid I don't have anything to bring to the WOTLK-discussion, but I really hope they don't make Disc. into some kind of support-tree in the line of shadow, so we're "forced" into another year of gimp-specs.

Finkum · 05/26/08, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by Havoc12

Disc priests will return mana to group so they can potentially go into DPS groups without mana pots, mana returning abilities will probably be a big deal for max DPS, especially if haste is factored in.

In the context of 25-mans, I would imagine that Discipline's mana return talents are intended such that healing groups will no longer ever "need" a shadow priest (for 10-mans obviously your group makeup choices are limited).

It would be a non-trivial waste to put a Discipline priest in the DPS caster group when shadow priests will now scale (better) with crit as well as haste. Their mana returns, being a function of their DPS, can always increase; a Discipline priest's mana returns are limited by the amount of healing required by the tank(s) (or the raid, although Discipline priests certainly won't excel there). This is exacerbated by the fact that the (main) benefit of being in the DPS group - higher crit - will not lead to proportionate increases in mana return because of overheal and the fact that the new crit scaling (Divine Aegis) is not counted as "healing done".

At best a Discipline priest can expect to be in the leftover DPS caster group - e.g. one group will be Elemental Shaman, Moonkin, Spriest, and some combination of mages/locks; the second will have the leftover mages and locks (and maybe that BM hunter you just can't fit anywhere else), and you.

Ellyh · 05/26/08, 2:29 AM

Originally Posted by Havoc12

Also you need ~80 crit rating from gear to get ~20% crit at the T6 level of itemisation.

That is not particularly tough to get.

Don't forget that crit ratings effectiveness dropped from 12 rating /crit % at 60 to somewhere around 22 rating/crit at 70 or a about a 50% loss of effectiveness. so assuming a similar drop in Wrath I would expect it to be somewhere around 35 crit rating per % of crit at L80. Thus you will require a good deal more than 80 crit rating to get the same bang for your buck. I agree with Constantus that it's unlikely that crit will ever be very high for holy priests. You could make it higher with a massive gear philosophy shift but this would only result in less than optimal gear as crit is (and seems likely to remain) a poor healing stat, especially for holy priests. (see the maths on inspiration uptime for why stacking crit is not very desirable)

finally what about the cost of this crit rating, for existing gear 80 crit rating on healing gear is basically impossible to get without badly gimping either your regen or your haste. Most of this healing crit gear would be jewellery you would have the prise out of the cold dead hands of the paladins in your guild.

Havoc12 · 05/26/08, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Ellyh

Don't forget that crit ratings effectiveness dropped from 12 rating /crit % at 60 to somewhere around 22 rating/crit at 70 or a about a 50% loss of effectiveness. so assuming a similar drop in Wrath I would expect it to be somewhere around 35 crit rating per % of crit at L80. Thus you will require a good deal more than 80 crit rating to get the same bang for your buck. I agree with Constantus that it's unlikely that crit will ever be very high for holy priests. You could make it higher with a massive gear philosophy shift but this would only result in less than optimal gear as crit is (and seems likely to remain) a poor healing stat, especially for holy priests. (see the maths on inspiration uptime for why stacking crit is not very desirable)

finally what about the cost of this crit rating, for existing gear 80 crit rating on healing gear is basically impossible to get without badly gimping either your regen or your haste. Most of this healing crit gear would be jewellery you would have the prise out of the cold dead hands of the paladins in your guild.

It would require 160 crit rating just about, which should be just as easy to get as 80 crit rating is at 70.

At level 70 and T6 gear, a holy priest can get 16-17% crit rating with nothing but raid buffs and consumables. Given the int inflation I would expect a lvl 80 end-game geared priest to have 17-18% crit rating just from int, talents, raid buffs and consumables. I cannot see how getting 3-4% from gear will require too much of a sacrifice.

We are however taking this too far, I think. What I will do instead of discussing this further is I will post this formula that tells you how much damage is saved on your tank by divine aegis.

The way I read divine aegis is that when you score a crit 30% of the value of the heal (i.e. includes overheal) becomes a shield. That means that each point of divine aegis adds 30% of each crit as a shield on your target. That is 30%*150% = 45% of a non crit heal. Each point adds 15% of the value of your normal non crit heal as a shield on the tank.

Hence each point of divine aegis reduces incoming tank damage by 0.15*(total healing received by tank including overheal) per point of crit.

Hence if:

C = Crit
H = total healing received by tank including overheal
n = talent points in divine aegis
DRda = damage reduction from divine aegis

then

DRda = 0.15*n*C*H.

15% crit, 3 points ==> DRda = 0.45*0.15*H = 6.75%*H or 2.25%*H per point
20% crit, 3 points ==> DRda = 0.45*0.2*H = 9%*H or 3%*H per point.

H will be effective healing if divine aegis works only on effective healing.

I personally think that this is too big to pass.

Ellyh · 05/26/08, 4:38 PM

Originally Posted by Havoc12

The way I read divine aegis is that when you score a crit 30% of the value of the heal (i.e. includes overheal) becomes a shield. That means that each point of divine aegis adds 30% of each crit as a shield on your target. That is 30%*150% = 45% of a non crit heal. Each point adds 15% of the value of your normal non crit heal as a shield on the tank.

I'm fairly sure that the talent maxed out out only gives you a total shield of 30% of the crit. adding a shield which is 90% of a crit heal is insanely overpowered, given that the datamining shows a base value for the castable shield of just under 2k + coefficient a total of 30% of the crit should give a comparable number and will provide a good baseline for determining how valuable the damage reduction from this will be.

Hence each point of divine aegis reduces incoming tank damage by 0.15*(total healing received by tank including overheal) per point of crit.

Hence if:

C = Crit
H = total healing received by tank including overheal
n = talent points in divine aegis
DRda = damage reduction from divine aegis

then

DRda = 0.15*n*C*H.

15% crit, 3 points ==> DRda = 0.45*0.15*H = 6.75%*H or 2.25%*H per point
20% crit, 3 points ==> DRda = 0.45*0.2*H = 9%*H or 3%*H per point.

H will be effective healing if divine aegis works only on effective healing.

I personally think that this is too big to pass.

You can't model this on a per heal basis like this like you would for inspiration, the effect is spikey and unlike inspiration the effect only lasts until the shield is knocked down... i.e. the next swing in any fight that hits worth a damn. Assuming your base spam the tank spell heals for 5k non crit (seems a resonable assumption for GH spam given current numbers) you will crit for 7500. This gives a bubble on the tank = to 30% of this value or 2250 damage absorption. This is not a particularly wonderful amount. Yes over the course of a fight it will add up and it will help smooth out spikes but I don't see this being as valuable as the inspiration proc you will have put on the tank at the same time. Also you have just crit the tank so he should not be in that much danger of dying now anyway. Unlike the regular shield you have no way of forcing the effect when it's most needed, ie when the tank is about to be gibbed.

If you do want to model this out on a per heal basis you are adding 450 mitigation per heal assuming a 20% crit rate. I.e. on average increasing your healing output by 4.5%.

Finally depending on placement this may be a talent passed up for logistics. It looks as though Disc will be primarily spamming Greater Heal on the MT so between cheaper greater heals and the need to some other basics and inspiration you will be forced to invest 18 points into holy minimum so will not have a lot of flex in your build for a nice but not that wonderful talent like this. (My memory is that this talent currently competes with more desirable skills at it's level)

evlcookie · 05/26/08, 8:10 PM

Hey guys, sorry to interupt the wotlk talent talk but i was wondering if you can give me a hand on what i should spend my badges on. I currently have 241 sitting in the bank doing nothing, not too sure if i should spend em on gems for cash or actual items. In terms of progression i'm in a guild that is at 4/6 ssc , 2/4 tk , 1/5 mh, we should be doing better but the server is a heap of crap at the moment.

Blue slots will be filled with [Purified Shadowsong Amethyst] Yellow with [Luminous Pyrestone] Red with [Teardrop Crimson Spinel]. Gloves will be enchanted with +35 healing, boots with vitality, mace with +81 healing. The typical stuff, if anyone wants to make a change to any of that then please do so. I can't do the ring since im not a JC'r.

Onto the theorycrafting. Everything listed here has been gemmed and enchanted with the above items. All stats are me unbuffed.

Current setup:
Healing: 1897
Mana Regen: 626 / 224
Health: 7061
Mana: 10185

[Light-Blessed Bonds] + [Item not found!] + [Slippers of Dutiful Mending]
Healing: 2001
Mana Regen: 641 / 218
Health: 6951
Mana: 10170
* It's possible to also include essence of martyr which would give me a total of 2085 healing. But i would need to ditch the darkmoon card or earing.

[Gavel of Naaru Blessings] + [Light-Blessed Bonds]
Healing: 2024
Mana Regen: 611 / 212
Health: 7251
Mana: 10305

[Gavel of Naaru Blessings] + [Item not found!]
Healing: 1989
Mana Regen: 612 / 223
Health: 7251
Mana: 10275

[Gavel of Naaru Blessings] + [Slippers of Dutiful Mending]
Healing: 2012
Mana Regen: 614 / 214
Health: 7351
Mana: 10275

I have no idea what to go with, it's all driving me a bit insane. So any help would be appreciated.

ilkori · 05/26/08, 9:59 PM

Evlcookie, your post doesn't really have theory crafting so much as gear advice. One of the simpler ways of evaluating upgrades is to take the benefit divided by the cost, and take the highest value of these B/C ratios. You've already calculated the new values with upgrades. The next step is to find the difference and divide that by the cost in badges. I would actually do this on a piece-by-piece basis and just upgrade them in order from highest B/C to lowest.

The last missing piece is to create an equivalency between the various stats so that all of the benefits can be directly compared. These numbers are highly subject to personal preference. I use the following weights at a gear level very similar to yours. (Note that they are normalized around equivalency to one +Healing S&E)

0.6 Stamina
1.1 Intellect
2.7 Spirit
4.4 mp5
1.0 Healing
0.9 Spell Crit
1.7 Haste

Sleeping Sun · 05/27/08, 3:19 AM

Hi Holy priests here !

I'm quite new on this forum and i'm very interested by all the content il has. So in order to improve my gear and by the way my playing style i would like to ask you some questions which are corresponding at several problems for me:

1st :

in your opinion , do you think that the use of only 22 healing spells gems in the aim of improving slightly bonus heal is good ? ( instead of searching bonus socket for example ) In this way, i guess reach for 2700 healing spells unbuff with only BT and Hyjal items buy my regeneration could decrease a lot, so what do you think about it ?

2nd :

according to the fact that spirit > mp 5 with the 2.4 patchnote, should i search some mp 5 after all in order to have a stable regeneration and by the way to not much depend on few-seconds breaks during my healing cycle to get out FSR ?

3rd :

last but not least :p , the alchemy new healer stone is it really so ultime ? ( i hesitate into give up tailoring and up 350 alchemy ) ?

Thanks in advance for your answers and my apologize for my bad english :s

Dway.

DMSO · 05/27/08, 4:43 AM

To Sleeping Sun:

Having followed this thread since it's posting, and having tried out a few things for myself I can try to summarise for you here; I don't claim to have the definitive answer of course, but this is based on what works for me and what I have read here.

1) 2700 +Heal is probably going a bit too far. A good point to aim for at the end of BT/MH raiding is around 2400 +Heal with 400 mp5 inside the 5sr (values when fully raid buffed); when you reach that, your best stat to upgrade is in fact Spell Haste.

2) No, you should easily get your I5SR regen without having to gear for plain mp5.

3) It's certainly very powerful, but I don't think it's absolutely essential, especially since our regen got buffed in 2.4. You've got to call this one for yourself really though; if you do find mana to be a problem, this is an obvious may to mitigate the problem as long as you can bear the thought of re-rolling profession.

Alcemon · 05/27/08, 5:13 AM

About gems, the first post of this thread (which has amazing answers and consolidated info from the whole thread) tells that these are the preferred gems for each type of slot:

Blue Slot = [Sparkling Empyrean Sapphire]
Yellow Slot = [Luminous Pyrestone] or [Quick Lionseye]
Red Slot = [Teardrop Crimson Spinel]

If you reaally want to customize your setup for +healing you can go ahead and use [Purified Shadowsong Amethyst]s for blue spots too. That way you keep your set bonuses (believe me, they pile up) and skew yourself in a more balanced way towards healing.
However do take the time to read the whole comment on gems on the first post, Spirit gems are really good for their scalability (specially if you are a Holy and/or Human Priest).

Originally Posted by DMSO

1) 2700 +Heal is probably going a bit too far.

Funny that you should mention "going too far in +Heal", to me +Healing is one of those stats that you just can't have enough of.
It obviously helps your Burst healing(although admitedly not as much as Spell Haste), which is quite important in the endgame, and it also kind of improves your regen because it allows your downranked heals to hit for more allowing you to forego the use of higher(and more expensive) ranks.
I would say that unless your lowest rank spells are overhealing for a lot(which is quite hard to accomplish), its not really a waste to get more +healing.

This comment should NOT be taken as an "Ignore other stats, stack +heal" suggestion though, I do believe in the power of a well-balanced setup. My point is that +healing should not be considered as stat with a "softcap".

Edit: spelling and typos