Holy Raiding Compendium v2 - Page 53

Squishypants · 07/28/08, 11:52 AM

Out of curiosity, which fights in MH/BT/SWP do you feel you benefit the most from stacking haste? I have several pieces that include haste I always wear, about 7% at that point, but also a few I switch in and out at the cost of some bonus heal/regen stats. If I stack haste gear, I'm up to 10% which is a noticeable difference on GCD's/gheals. I usually base my decision on whether or not I have mana issues on that fight, or if I have a shadow priest in my group but I would like to hear which fights other priests use it on or what factors do you base your haste-or-stats decisions on?

Lambi · 07/28/08, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Squishypants

Out of curiosity, which fights in MH/BT/SWP do you feel you benefit the most from stacking haste? I have several pieces that include haste I always wear, about 7% at that point, but also a few I switch in and out at the cost of some bonus heal/regen stats. If I stack haste gear, I'm up to 10% which is a noticeable difference on GCD's/gheals. I usually base my decision on whether or not I have mana issues on that fight, or if I have a shadow priest in my group but I would like to hear which fights other priests use it on or what factors do you base your haste-or-stats decisions on?

To me haste is that stat which lets you become so much more of a good healer. You can afford to xheal alot, your group heals become alot stronger and you become more mana efficient due to being able to stop your casts and then being fast enough to land one if you make a mistake.

If I'm greater healing I have a 2.0 sec cast time giving me 0.5 seconds more time to let that big heal land on a tank compared to a non hasted priest. I'm a firm believer of this granting me more mana than for the regen heavy priests that are spamming gheals back to back, I can actually afford to stop the cast without the tank dying.

Also haste lets me pump out the most HPS when it's really needed so in my eyes it's a jack of all trades when you've learned to use it properly.

YukinoHana · 07/28/08, 1:18 PM

Originally Posted by Lambi

To me haste is that stat which lets you become so much more of a good healer. You can afford to xheal alot, your group heals become alot stronger and you become more mana efficient due to being able to stop your casts and then being fast enough to land one if you make a mistake.

If I'm greater healing I have a 2.0 sec cast time giving me 0.5 seconds more time to let that big heal land on a tank compared to a non hasted priest. I'm a firm believer of this granting me more mana than for the regen heavy priests that are spamming gheals back to back, I can actually afford to stop the cast without the tank dying.

Also haste lets me pump out the most HPS when it's really needed so in my eyes it's a jack of all trades when you've learned to use it properly.

I don't think anyone would argue on haste being an effective stat for pushing higher HPS, but I don't think the arguments for haste being a regen stat have been particularly convincing. For starters, you claim that haste makes it easier to stop casts - actually, wouldn't hasted casts mean, especially with latency taken into account, that it is harder to cancel in time since you have a shorter time frame within which to cancel your cast? The next argument for for haste being a regen stat is that one can finish a sequence of casts within a shorter amount of time and provide more FSR time in between the next sequence of casts - but in practice, how often this pattern of healing occurs seems dubious to me. I've not personally experience Sunwell yet, but from what others in SWP have said, and my own experiences in BT/Hyjal, if my heals are finishing faster, it simply means I'm taking the "saved time" to push out healing elsewhere. Haste, rather, seems to offer higher HPS at the cost of mana, which is why conventionally, priests seem to be picking up haste as their mana regen can support.

Kellyz · 07/28/08, 2:20 PM

Originally Posted by Lambi

After checking Teaspoonz gear I've noticed you're not gemming very well. You're overusing red pure healing gems even when you don't get the socketbonus, when haste gems outperforms them in raw output by far. Follow the socketbonuses you like, socket for as much regen as you feel you need and then go for pure haste when possible.

I heard that you have to have at least 100 haste to notice any changes. It would seem that then I would have to literally change all of my gems to have haste, since there is only a 10 haste gem. None of my gear has haste on it. If this isnt accurate, then how much haste do i actually need to notice a difference? I would love to lower the casting time on my gheal.

And only my pants isnt using the socket bonus as it is only stamina bonus.

Squishypants · 07/28/08, 2:50 PM

Originally Posted by Lambi

To me haste is that stat which lets you become so much more of a good healer. You can afford to xheal alot, your group heals become alot stronger and you become more mana efficient due to being able to stop your casts and then being fast enough to land one if you make a mistake.

If I'm greater healing I have a 2.0 sec cast time giving me 0.5 seconds more time to let that big heal land on a tank compared to a non hasted priest. I'm a firm believer of this granting me more mana than for the regen heavy priests that are spamming gheals back to back, I can actually afford to stop the cast without the tank dying.

Also haste lets me pump out the most HPS when it's really needed so in my eyes it's a jack of all trades when you've learned to use it properly.

Though I appreciate your input, my question wasn't really a matter of whether we should or shouldn't use haste, it is obviously a very useful stat. At your gear level you have tons of haste AND still maintain very good +healing and regen stats so its a no brainer that haste is amazing for you and perfectly acceptable to keep that setup in all situations.

At a begining SWP level however it becomes more of a stat juggle, so I'm just wondering what fights people find haste the most useful for.

Tulani · 07/28/08, 2:58 PM

Shoot, double post.

Tulani · 07/28/08, 3:02 PM

Originally Posted by Kellyz

I heard that you have to have at least 100 haste to notice any changes. It would seem that then I would have to literally change all of my gems to have haste, since there is only a 10 haste gem. None of my gear has haste on it. If this isnt accurate, then how much haste do i actually need to notice a difference? I would love to lower the casting time on my gheal.

And only my pants isnt using the socket bonus as it is only stamina bonus.

The best time to gem for haste is when you start getting haste on gear - because the sockets start being yellow.

As for haste becoming "noticeable," it is true that it must be in higher quantities, but honestly I never noticed it before about 120-140 myself. As the front page says, a geared SW priest will have 300 haste without trying at all. I currently have 182 without trying beyond gemming my yellow sockets with it.

Changing all of your sockets right now would not only gimp you completely, but it would gimp the stats you need at your level, which is healing and regen. A shorter cast time is great, but 100 haste is NOT better than 144 +heal, 25 spr, 1 mp5, 22 int, and the meta gem proc. Trust me - get haste as it comes. Once you start seeing haste on gear (IE t6 bracers, etc) start socketting for it. It's not worth regemming your current yellow slots until then either, as a sole 20 haste won't make a dent, and would be <22 healing and 10 int by itself.

Originally Posted by Squishypants

Though I appreciate your input, my question wasn't really a matter of whether we should or shouldn't use haste, it is obviously a very useful stat. At your gear level you have tons of haste AND still maintain very good +healing and regen stats so its a no brainer that haste is amazing for you and perfectly acceptable to keep that setup in all situations.

At a begining SWP level however it becomes more of a stat juggle, so I'm just wondering what fights people find haste the most useful for.

As for this, I find the haste stat in SW to be above everything on every fight really, if that makes sense. Though, I guess, it would be:

Brut, for landing quick hard heals on the tank, Fel for getting maximum casts off between dispelling, Twins for sheer amazing output (haste makes a GIGANTIC impact there) and Muru p2 for the same reason as Twins. Really, the only fight that doesn't -require- haste is probably Kalec, though haste sure makes it easier. The absolute most "useful" fight is probably Twins, if you're raid healing: you'll want to have haste for that fight definitely (you could squeeze by on other without haste when you just begin).

This question is kind of like asking what fight I find +heal most useful for.

Lambi · 07/28/08, 3:49 PM

Originally Posted by YukinoHana

I don't think anyone would argue on haste being an effective stat for pushing higher HPS, but I don't think the arguments for haste being a regen stat have been particularly convincing. For starters, you claim that haste makes it easier to stop casts - actually, wouldn't hasted casts mean, especially with latency taken into account, that it is harder to cancel in time since you have a shorter time frame within which to cancel your cast? The next argument for for haste being a regen stat is that one can finish a sequence of casts within a shorter amount of time and provide more FSR time in between the next sequence of casts - but in practice, how often this pattern of healing occurs seems dubious to me. I've not personally experience Sunwell yet, but from what others in SWP have said, and my own experiences in BT/Hyjal, if my heals are finishing faster, it simply means I'm taking the "saved time" to push out healing elsewhere. Haste, rather, seems to offer higher HPS at the cost of mana, which is why conventionally, priests seem to be picking up haste as their mana regen can support.

Haste let's you stop casts because it will still let your tank live. Alot of non hasted priests don't dare stop casting because if they do the tank might die. I'm sure alot of you are familiar with "DAMN I only needed 0.1-0.2 seconds and my heal would have saved him!". 2.5 -> 2.0 second greater heal is a world apart letting me stop casting and being confident my next heal will land on time.

Lambi · 07/28/08, 3:51 PM

Originally Posted by Squishypants

Though I appreciate your input, my question wasn't really a matter of whether we should or shouldn't use haste, it is obviously a very useful stat. At your gear level you have tons of haste AND still maintain very good +healing and regen stats so its a no brainer that haste is amazing for you and perfectly acceptable to keep that setup in all situations.

At a begining SWP level however it becomes more of a stat juggle, so I'm just wondering what fights people find haste the most useful for.

Ok haste is the most useful stat for Brutallus, Felmyst, Twins, M'uru and Kil'Jaeden. It's good on Kalecgos too, but far from a must have.

moink · 07/28/08, 3:51 PM

On the topic of consumables, I've stopped using flasks. An elixir of draenic wisdom gets me more regen than a flask of distilled wisdom, which in turn, assuming 15% OO5SR, gets me significantly more regen than a flask of mighty restoration. On regen-heavy fights, or those for which I need to maximize my stamina, I pair it with an elixir of mastery. On those fights that don't stretch my mana and don't need extra stamina, I use an elixir of healing power.

Lambi · 07/28/08, 3:55 PM

Originally Posted by Kellyz

I heard that you have to have at least 100 haste to notice any changes. It would seem that then I would have to literally change all of my gems to have haste, since there is only a 10 haste gem. None of my gear has haste on it. If this isnt accurate, then how much haste do i actually need to notice a difference? I would love to lower the casting time on my gheal.

And only my pants isnt using the socket bonus as it is only stamina bonus.

The haste pvp trinket is very good in a few fights. 40 haste and 1750 hp on use can save you from a world of trouble at times. ZA also has an incredible haste / healing / spirit neck, those two items alone are ~70 haste, and socket bonuses such as 1mp5 aren't worth it so put a 10 haste gem there.

As for socket bonuses, check your bracers again mate

Starfire · 07/28/08, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by the_nell_87

Greetings, fellow priests! I'm just starting to raid on my holy priest, and wanted some opinions on flasks/elixirs.
In the first post, it seems that Elixir of Healing Power + Elixir of Draenic Wisdom is the better option. Is this the case? Looking as lists of all flasks and elixirs available (on WoWWiki) there doesn't seem to be any flask or combination of elixirs which is better for a holy priest.

Flask of Mighty restoration - seems very lacklustre, and from theorycrafting on first post, doesn't give as much regen as:
Flask of Distilled wisdom - also seems a bit lacklustre at first glance, but according to the TC, it gives great regen.
Healing power + draenic wisdom - according to TC gives better regen than flask of distilled wisdom, PLUS gives 62 healing.
Healing power + major mageblood - well, I assume that draenic wisdom gives much better regen than this.

Those really seem like the only options. Is there something I'm missing? Or are we expected to go out and buy a couple of stacks of elixirs before every raid?

I don't know how often you wipe or how your server's economy is. But on Dragonblight, its actually cheaper for me to use Elixirs than it is to use Flasks. You really need to take a look at how often you wipe and server costs. (And also, take into account Elixir Mastery procs). I sort of suspect this is going to be true for most people.

Only reason I mention this is, I frequently hear guildies complaining about Elixirs, but then I point out the price differentials and compare it to our frequency of wiping. Oh, and if its farm content, then I suspect you aren't going to be wiping often -- I'd imagine in almost every case possible that Elixirs are cheaper than Flasks for anything close to farm.

kaypos · 07/29/08, 10:51 AM

Robe of Eternal Light

Is it THAT much better? I know I'd gain 15 stam, 11 int, 40 haste, and 18 mp5 (while losing 45 spirit)... but how much is all of this worth? Is it worth the 10k gold some guilds are selling the pattern for? is it only worth 3k gold? Should i just wait for it to drop for me in sunwell?

Just curious what people think (since i know this is the best spot for advice.

Tulani · 07/29/08, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by kaypos

Robe of Eternal Light

Is it THAT much better? I know I'd gain 15 stam, 11 int, 40 haste, and 18 mp5 (while losing 45 spirit)... but how much is all of this worth? Is it worth the 10k gold some guilds are selling the pattern for? is it only worth 3k gold? Should i just wait for it to drop for me in sunwell?

Just curious what people think (since i know this is the best spot for advice.

Over what? T6? It depends.

Actually, if moving from T6, you could either lose stats (minus 11 healing and 25 OOFSR regen, and keep FSR regen the exact same, and gain only haste) or gain very moderate stats (4mp5, 3 healing, and 30 haste or so, and lose OOFSR regen). So, if picking up T6, depending on how you gemmed said robe, you wouldn't gain much but might lose a lot. Depending on how high you place haste...is 30-40 haste worth the cost of the pattern and the mats of the robe?

So, if you have t6, and are currently clearing Sunwell, try to gauge how long it will take you to get to Muru. Muru's robes are amazing, and would replace Eternal Light anyway. However, if you have Eternal Light, then passing on Muru's for others (like one priest in my guild is doing) might be a nice thing. The big deciding factor is how you gear yourself. Unfortunately, I can't be sure of how you do this, since you logged in PVP gear, but if you gear for haste and want more, then perhaps these robes are worth more to you.

I personally didn't grab them (not that we've had the pattern drop), and many priests I know also didn't grab them.

Honestly, I don't think Eternal Light is a big upgrade, especially not for money. If it drops for your guild, sure, pick it up and decide then, but otherwise, the upgrade (or possible downgrade) isn't worth it.

kolboi · 07/29/08, 12:49 PM

I can't help but notice that there is no info on plus to healing anywhere really. I'm interested in knowing if theres some sort of soft cap on plus healing in which case it wouldn't matter if you stopped stacking healing and went for regen all the way at this point. Now if there isn't infact a soft cap on plus healing then why is the difference from 2300-2500 not really a big deal. I notice a little difference in my crits but the over all healing done is about 100 maybe 200 more healing, whereas when i upgraded from 1800-2k+ there was a huge difference. Help me please

Starfire · 07/29/08, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by kolboi

I can't help but notice that there is no info on plus to healing anywhere really. I'm interested in knowing if theres some sort of soft cap on plus healing in which case it wouldn't matter if you stopped stacking healing and went for regen all the way at this point. Now if there isn't infact a soft cap on plus healing then why is the difference from 2300-2500 not really a big deal. I notice a little difference in my crits but the over all healing done is about 100 maybe 200 more healing, whereas when i upgraded from 1800-2k+ there was a huge difference. Help me please

Well, just looking at percentages...

2000 is an 11% upgrade over 1800 (1800 * 1.111 ~ 1998)
2500 is an 8.7% upgrade over 2300 (2300 * 1.087 ~ 2500)

But eitherway, besides that, I've always felt that it was regen that had a cap and haste/heal did not. There certainly is a point where more regen will be wasted, but there's never a point where more +heal or +haste will be useless.

• constantius · 07/29/08, 1:00 PM

I'm going to assume you're not trolling.

No, there is no soft cap on Healing Spells & Effects. Yes, the difference between 2300 and 2500 is still significant. Yes, you should see the difference in your healing spells.

Some values for you, assuming 5/5 Spiritual Healing, 5/5 Empowered Healing, 4-piece T6, and GH(7):

(2590 + HSE*3.0/3.5 + HSE*0.2)*1.05*1.1

1800 Healing S&E: 5189
2000 Healing S&E: 5433 (+1.22 / point)
2200 Healing S&E: 5678 (+1.22 / point)
2400 Healing S&E: 5922 (+1.22 / point)
2500 Healing S&E: 6044 (+1.22 / point)
2600 Healing S&E: 6166 (+1.22 / point)

So no matter how much you increase your HSE, you still gain +1.22 healing done by GH(7) per point gained of HSE. This is obviously not quite as true for any spell prior to GH(6), because of the downranking penalty.

kolboi · 07/29/08, 1:09 PM

Thanks for the help i really just needed that question answered. Sorry to bother

Bjork · 07/30/08, 2:34 AM

Originally Posted by Squishypants

Out of curiosity, which fights in MH/BT/SWP do you feel you benefit the most from stacking haste?

It's pretty obvious, the fight with most intense healing ... M'uru phase2 as prime example, Kil'jaeden from 55-25% is also quite hectic, same can Twins p1 be. When pushing for progress healers should gem for max performance in those situations, if you ask me.

For example, it's not a problem if a holy priest end phase1 on Twins oom (it's a kill anyway, as long as you have 25 ppl alive) - even a heavily hastegemed priest can get back to 100% mana during p2 without anyone being in trouble just by healing smart and take some breaks. Point is, the hastegeared priest is a lot better in phase1 - where healing is intense. Having 1,3 seconds GCD vs. 1,5 seconds GCD makes a huge difference when learning p1 Twins, having 1-200 more MP5 doesn't.

Regarding the potion-"nerf": It's not a problem. They just tune encounters after available buffs to the players. If we need to make more choices to when we use a potion, then it is all good and make the game even more interesting. Personally I pot mana every available CD if it makes me perform better in progress raids, I welcome this change.

• constantius · 07/30/08, 12:31 PM

Some ballpark numbers, just to keep them in this thread as well as the Disc thread:

Be prepared to lose 25% of your spirit-based regen as you level (gaining back some of it from the increased spirit from your base stats increasing, but not significant amounts).

Level 77: 551 int, 595 spirit, 539 Mp5 OO5SR (from spirit)

5 * X * 551^0.5 * 595 = 539 ==> X = 0.007718377 = 0.0077184

If the scaling continues, we lose 0.000229814 off the coefficient for each level (I'm assuming linear scaling; if not, obviously this will be off), so our final level 80 regen formula will be:

5 * 0.007029 * sqrt {Int} * Spi

or roughly 75% of our current levels. :-(

The scaling to GotW, IDS, AI, base stats, and consumables will return us to a neutral standing by the time we raid in WotLK. The new gems and enchants alone will make up most of the difference.

Veldefice · 07/31/08, 9:04 PM

Well, my original post was deleted due to some laziness on my part. Searched all the posts that I missed, but I didn't see a discussion about the Sliver.

Anyway, has anyone actually got and used the [Glimmering Naaru Sliver]?

At the moment I'm still using [Memento of Tyrande]and [Earring of Soulful Meditation]as my trinkets.

I just wanted to see if the Sliver was actually an upgrade over the Earring? (which has served me well... for a long long time)

Interested in some thoughts ;D

Avb · 07/31/08, 10:11 PM

Burst regen+passive heal is just awesomeness - I don't want to miss this trinket

But I use Earring of Soulful Meditation in fights like Felmyst, where you can just pop this trinket and reg from 0 to 100. The good thing is, you'll mostly find the time to use it, even as Burn healing, Twins, M'uru (p1, p2 transition).

Mazin · 08/01/08, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by Avb

Burst regen+passive heal is just awesomeness - I don't want to miss this trinket

But I use Earring of Soulful Meditation in fights like Felmyst, where you can just pop this trinket and reg from 0 to 100. The good thing is, you'll mostly find the time to use it, even as Burn healing, Twins, M'uru (p1, p2 transition).

It's not really burst regen.. it's channeled

Aeverius · 08/01/08, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by Veldefice

Well, my original post was deleted due to some laziness on my part. Searched all the posts that I missed, but I didn't see a discussion about the Sliver.

Please understand that I am not being rude when I say this, but I used the "search this thread" function with the keyword "sliver," and came up with several discussions on it. Granted, they boil down to "This is a very very good trinket, you should use it," but that makes sense, considering.

First post is here. You'll need to click on the "permalink" button in the upper right corner to put it back in context and see the rest of the discussion, which continues for a couple of pages in between other posts about different things.

There is a ton of information to be had around here, but people are usually not going to find it for you; try to get better acquainted with the search function.

Kellyz · 08/01/08, 2:19 AM

so I was having a discussion with another priest in my guild...

[Insightful Earthstorm Diamond]: the most useful, and easiest to equip, metagem. The proc goes off quite often, and typically restores 4000+ mana over a 10 minute fight. Very useful, and the intellect also helps.
[Bracing Earthstorm Diamond]: useful metagem, but somewhat difficult to get activated. The 26 healing S&E is largely useless compared to 2500 +heal, whereas the mana return from IED above is still useful in end-game.

i currently have 2268 healing. I picked the insightful earthstorm and the other priest picked bracing earthstorm. he has roughly the same amount of +healing as I do. Did i make the wrong choice?