Is it possible that testing was done long time ago and something changed in recent patches?
I don't think so. Since it is available, I spam PoM on every tank I play with, before the pull, during pull, whatever. PoM never ever let a mob look at me for unclear reasons. Any strange behaviour could be explained by looking at the combat log.
If you want to retest this, you can try the lynx groups spawing in ZA, on the way to Halazzi. There, you can easily pull aggro just by drinking a potion or by sitting down and eating. Yet, while running ZA for two IDs every week since November, I never managed to pull aggro with PoM - which I frequently cast while the lynxes are spawing.
I really recommend anyone who thinks he or she pulled aggro using PoM to closely examine the combat log after the fight. You will most definitely find that something else was going on.
Some examples why people think PoM pulls aggro:
- Fights where mobs spawn. Nightbane comes to mind or the mentioned lynx groups in ZA. Usually the closest person will be targeted first. But, if anyone does anything like restore health or mana, or a CoE, the mobs will immediately turn and target that person. So, either you were standing close to the spawn position and thus got targeted or you did some tiny thing like drinking a potion.
- Something else you did - like a HoT on a player that suddenly ticked because a warrior shout was cast or an imp came within range. Shield, inner fire.
- You might have an IED meta gem that procced while PoM was cast. This restores 300 mana and thus causes a tiny amount of threat (hard to test, but it should, as does VT or drinking mana potions). If you have a body pull going, that might suffice for the mobs to turn to you.
Last edited by Hegen : 08/27/08 at 4:10 AM.
Reason: Typos
I pulled aggro on Akama trash last night two times in a row using nothing but PoM (intentionally, trying to test this). No PWS, no Renew ticking, nothing - just PoM. Tank was closer, mobs were running towards him, but he had done nothing yet. I throw a PoM on him, and at least one mob targets me at least momentarily.
You use an IED which might have procced on the PoM. Do you happen to have a combat log in order to check that really no mana or life regeneration effect was active on you?
though the aggro of the amount healed accounts to the target you still buff the target which causes a small ammount of thread. you can try this by buffing the tank with stamina/fearward/etc during the pull.. should have the same effect..
though the aggro of the amount healed accounts to the target you still buff the target which causes a small ammount of thread. you can try this by buffing the tank with stamina/fearward/etc during the pull.. should have the same effect..
If you read the many previous posts, many priests, including myself, HAVE put PoM on the tank after they pull a group of mobs - including body pulls and multi-mob pulls - and have not had said mobs target us. The IED proc generating threat seems a much more plausible explanation than the threat mechanics of PoM being different from priest to priest.
Buffing gives more than 0 aggro, but casts like earthshield or pom (or the application of misdirect) where you simple reassign the aggro dont give you any aggro above 0. Btw tanks sometimes use the buffaggro of their buffs to get a little aoe-aggro to all mobs (which is very low but more than none).
But even IF PoM would give you some aggro you could apply it before the pull (and that would give you none aggro at all and you would not join the aggro-table if the PoM proccs at all) and right after the tank got the first hit (wich procced the original PoM). You can not pull aggro with the second application (if there are no new mobs) since the tank just got the healing aggro from the first PoM which is more than 0 (or whatever you think the application could give you).
Buffing gives more than 0 aggro, but casts like earthshield or pom (or the application of misdirect) where you simple reassign the aggro dont give you any aggro above 0. Btw tanks sometimes use the buffaggro of their buffs to get a little aoe-aggro to all mobs (which is very low but more than none).
But even IF PoM would give you some aggro you could apply it before the pull (and that would give you none aggro at all and you would not join the aggro-table if the PoM proccs at all) and right after the tank got the first hit (wich procced the original PoM). You can not pull aggro with the second application (if there are no new mobs) since the tank just got the healing aggro from the first PoM which is more than 0 (or whatever you think the application could give you).
Absolutely. I agree it's better practice to apply the PoM before the mobs aggro on anyone. We were just discussing the amount of aggro credited to the priest when it is applied after the mobs are engaged. I don't think anyone is advocating casting it in the one brief moment when it might actually draw aggro; we're just discussing the effects of doing so.
I'm almost certain that that has nothing to do with the PoM, and it's more likely that the priest cast a PWS and didn't want to admit it. As I've already mentioned so many times before, it is a tested fact that a single PoM cast cannot pull aggro even if your tank has done 0 threat to the boss. And if you don't believe me on this, you're definitely welcome to try it for yourself and report the results.
The only other possible explanation would be that there's some insidious bug in the system that only shows up once in a blue moon on boss pulls. Which I highly doubt would be the case.
You could be right, he might have shielded and didn't mention it.
Originally Posted by Plea
Why wouldn't you misdirect Archimonde? You can body pull him and still misdirect him to your tank. Ideally, your tank will be running towards him and the hunter right after. The hunter should be landing a hit before Archimonde lands one on your tank and from then on your healers cannot aggro. If you're having your hunters group run mounted to the opposite side, well, one of them will be late.
Healing aggro on the pull is mostly caused by hots and pws. Archimonde targets our druid on many of our pulls and switches back to the tank once the misdirect lands. Tell your tank to bloodrage before the pull, it will help a bit too.
I'm honestly not sure why they don't misdirect. They probably figure it's unnecessary.
Originally Posted by Hegen
- You might have an IED meta gem that procced while PoM was cast. This restores 300 mana and thus causes a tiny amount of threat (hard to test, but it should, as does VT or drinking mana potions). If you have a body pull going, that might suffice for the mobs to turn to you.
Ah ha. This seems very likely to be the culprit, as he has had the IED meta gem for quite some time, and would have had it during that fight. I don't think anyone would have suspected it though, and that's why PoM took the blame. I wonder if I could find the WWS...
FWIW I just tested this out with a druid friend. The exact method and result was:
1. have him macro /cancelaura Prayer of Mending
2. bodypull a wolf outside shatt
3. kite the wolf in travel form
4. i hit him with pom, he cancels. he continues kiting while pom cd counts down, and hit him with pom again. we repeated this for about 4 poms and i was unable to pull the mob off him.
5. i hit him with Fort, the mob heads straight to me.
FWIW I just tested this out with a druid friend. The exact method and result was:
1. have him macro /cancelaura Prayer of Mending
2. bodypull a wolf outside shatt
3. kite the wolf in travel form
4. i hit him with pom, he cancels. he continues kiting while pom cd counts down, and hit him with pom again. we repeated this for about 4 poms and i was unable to pull the mob off him.
5. i hit him with Fort, the mob heads straight to me.
You know, your test isn't very accurate unless you killed the mob and repeated steps 1-3, and skipped 4. You're going on the assumption that pom is 0, but if pom had threat, but not enough threat to peel a mob.
You know, your test isn't very accurate unless you killed the mob and repeated steps 1-3, and skipped 4. You're going on the assumption that pom is 0, but if pom had threat, but not enough threat to peel a mob.
Which for the purposes of this dicussion is the same as 0. Ie less threat than that gained through a body pull.
Last edited by Arthian : 08/21/08 at 11:22 PM.
Reason: spelling
You know, your test isn't very accurate unless you killed the mob and repeated steps 1-3, and skipped 4. You're going on the assumption that pom is 0, but if pom had threat, but not enough threat to peel a mob.
Huh? I'm not assuming anything. I did the experiment with the intent of seeing exactly how much threat PoM generated, i.e. figure out how many times I can buff someone with PoM before I pull aggro. I simply got bored after about 4 times and decided to call it quits.
I don't care about proving whether Fort is enough to pull aggro from someone who has 0 threat. I do care about proving whether or not PoM is enough to pull aggro from someone who has 0 threat - and in this case, even if I cast it 4 times for the same mob.
Given the threat generating nature of PoM, I always try to cast it so that it's off cooldown by the time the tank takes the first hit.
However, before patch 2.4.3, this endeavor was much harder to accomplish than it sounds...especially if the tank was unaware of this timing effort because PoM could not be refreshed until the spell itself expired (effectively a 30sec cooldown).
Now, presented with these situations, I ALWAYS heard the Omen threat warning when I cast PoM in Heroics after my warrior tank entered combat against a multiple mob group. To say that my metagem procced > 50% of initial casts is unlikely in my opinion. Back then (3 months ago), I didn't know about combatlogs so I don't actually have data from that time.
Since the patch that corrected PoM, I've never pulled aggro with it, because I've never cast it initially while the tank has been in combat. The threat-building mechanics of PoM are so powerful, I'd never want to have it on cooldown to NOT use it twice in a row. And now, it's SO easy to cast it at the right time if you pay attention during your encounters.
Perhaps this problem was repaired after this latest patch, but honestly, it doesn't even matter, since if you're casting it after combat, you're not fully utilizing the ability in the first place.
Yes, 2.4.3 helped a lot. I konw the thread-possibilities of PoM from both sides since my alt is a tank.
As Daerilia proved PoM does not do any aggro but putting you on the aggro-table at all. We cannot prove how it worked before the patch but since they did not change anything other than the CD ther schould not be any difference.
Do you apply renew? If your PoM was on CD when the tank pulled there is a good chance that there was a hot ticking from the last fight. When a warrior-tank pulles he tries to combine it with his bloodrage so he has some rage to build some inital aggro. When the tank does so he looses a small amount of life. Than the hot may tick and you may have the aggro (but fade should solve the problem or good reaction from your tank).
Now you have it much easier to have PoM ready and PoM would help there, too.
I'm sure this is a minor oversight, but the tailoring item [Swiftheal Mantle] is arguably the best shoulder slot until the T6 shoulders near the end of BT. (Haste vs. stats) It requires two Hearts of Darkness, but should ideally be mentioned with the Primal Mooncloth shoulders for alt gear.
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible." - Walt Disney
Yes, 2.4.3 helped a lot. I konw the thread-possibilities of PoM from both sides since my alt is a tank.
As Daerilia proved PoM does not do any aggro but putting you on the aggro-table at all. We cannot prove how it worked before the patch but since they did not change anything other than the CD ther schould not be any difference.
Do you apply renew? If your PoM was on CD when the tank pulled there is a good chance that there was a hot ticking from the last fight. When a warrior-tank pulles he tries to combine it with his bloodrage so he has some rage to build some inital aggro. When the tank does so he looses a small amount of life. Than the hot may tick and you may have the aggro (but fade should solve the problem or good reaction from your tank).
Now you have it much easier to have PoM ready and PoM would help there, too.
As far as I remember I wouldn't have a HoT cast until the first PoM is activated.
Anyway, since this latest patch, I haven't had that problem with aggro, so I believe the data that claims that PoM has no aggro associated with it's cast. I used it in ZA today and found no aggro from casting the PoM after the initiation of combat. Therefore, my conclusion is that the PoM problem has been fixed.
You can do the math based on your spell usage. Get a solid WWS parse of a clear of a dungeon (like, say, BT, or all the bosses in Sunwell you do), and then look at your percentages.
Now, ignore the regen from the [Luminous Pyrestone], and consider only the 11 healing versus 10 haste. You want to consider how much each increases your HpS. To make it slightly easier to see, consider it as if you were using 10 gems: 110 healing vs 100 haste.
100 haste increases the HPS of CoH, Binding Heal, GHeal, and Flash Heal by 1+100/1570 = 1.064. (6.4%)
100 haste can be considered to increase your overall HpS through reducing the cast time of Renew, but modeling this 'accurately' can give an inflated viewpoint, so I'm going to assume for sake of argument that the increase is 0%.
Now, 110 healing increases the HpS of each of these spells differently, and is based entirely on how much HSE you already have. You also need to know the amount each spell hits for, assuming no yellow gems filled in, but otherwise all your gear on.
Conclusion: mostly, people just pick a HSE number where they're happy with how hard their primary two spells (CoH and GH:1 or GH:2) hit for, and then stack haste past that point. Mine was 2550. Once I hit 2550 HSE, I started replacing all yellow slots with [Quick Lionseye]. Just due to the way Sunwell gear works, I ended up getting a whole lot more haste in the process, as the items from KJ and M'uru are very haste-heavy. Some people have used the 2000 HSE figure. I found that, while I used CoH a lot in a given night, on the bosses where I use GHeal, I really need it to hit hard, so stacking HSE made more sense to me than stacking haste. However, on a fight where CoH usage is heavy, Haste is really awesome.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
Additionally, if you use ItemRack as an addon, you can use a Script to switch in spirit-based weapons while you do this for a little more oomph. This can also be done manually with a bit more work.
Could ItemRack users share some examples of scripts that put on a spirit weapon when out of the 5SR (i.e. when Clearcasting procs, followed by Inner Focus)? I was able to figure out how to equip the weapon when I gain the Innervate buff, but that's about it (and it doesn't require a script). I've searched through the UI forum here on EJ, and I can't find any scripts at all, much less anything particular to the 5SR. I also can't find any API events that would be singularly useful. It seems like crafting a script using more than one event would be pretty complex.
What sort of scripts do all of you have set-up for ItemRack, particularly one that would take advantage of being outside the 5SR?
(Would this be better as a thread in the UI/Addons forum? I'm not interested in ItemRack usage for any class but priests, so I thought it best here.)
Last edited by Casperne : 08/25/08 at 9:29 PM.
Reason: Clarity.
Now pre-WotLK patch 3.0 has been announced as anyone given any thought to a 61 point build with the new talents?
Speficially with raiding in mind, 2 mins on my lunch break and I've come up with the somewhat obvious: 14/47/0
Frankly the thought of raiding with broken addons and everyone flailing with new talents fills me with equal parts dread and hilarity, but I thought this might be worth some discussion
Now pre-WotLK patch 3.0 has been announced as anyone given any thought to a 61 point build with the new talents?
Speficially with raiding in mind, 2 mins on my lunch break and I've come up with the somewhat obvious: 14/47/0
Frankly the thought of raiding with broken addons and everyone flailing with new talents fills me with equal parts dread and hilarity, but I thought this might be worth some discussion
Why would you take Unbreakable Will over Twin Disciplines?
Is this a pure PVE spec? I would move some of your Spell Warding points into Inspiration.
Also, if this patch also includes the downranking nerf, I think that Serendipity may become a required raiding talent for Holy.
Also, if this patch also includes the downranking nerf, I think that Serendipity may become a required raiding talent for Holy.
It's really good regardless. It appears, though, that you can't get 5/5 Empowered Healing, Test of Faith, and Serendipity in the same build (while getting Meditation), and with the spell power change Empowered Healing appears to be worse than live in WotLK (until they fix it), so that might be the one to drop.
It appears, though, that you can't get 5/5 Empowered Healing, Test of Faith, and Serendipity in the same build (while getting Meditation)
Well, if you sacrifice Improved Holy Concentration, you can get all three, if you really want to.
However, from the changes to the priest, it seems pretty certain that we need more mana efficiency at 70 due to the elimination of downranking. To compensate for that, we see talents like Improved Holy Concentration and Serendipity which both seem necessary at 70 as a compensation.
My quess is that this will play out to using Flash Heal a lot more. Instead of juggling between Greater Heal ranks for mana efficiency, we will juggle between Greater and Flash Heal depending on the amount to heal. If not that much needs to be healed so that Greater Heal will trigger Serendipity only if it crits, we will probably use Flash Heal instead, at least when we're on raid healing duty and just top up people.
This could turn out to be even more challenging and fun than the rank juggling game, especially since we will be making much more use of Holy Conc. procs even when raid healing.
I suppose we will just have to wait for final balancing to appear before we can really say how we will heal most efficiently, which in turn will decide some talent choices.
08/20/08, 10:07 AM
Similar Threads
