Holy Raiding Compendium v2 - Page 77

Havoc12 · 07/04/08, 6:45 AM

Originally Posted by Schylla

If you wanna talk numbers, look at your overheal generated from gheals and see if you can knock off 5%. If you're tank healing, it's probably gonna be at least 10%, usually much more. Now, think of your rationale for sticking with the T6 bonus. Probably something like "But that extra 5% could save a tank." To that, I find myself thinking "A steady stream of quicker heals would have kept the tank from ever dipping."

No amount of haste on a single item is going to give anywhere near 5% more throughput/HPM to gheal. More importantly although haste improves throughput linearly cast time is NOT reduced linearly. At 0% haste to 4% haste is a drop of 0.1 sec on gheal, 16% haste to 20% haste is a drop of 0.07sec. If you are using a very substancial amount of gheal in a fight, 5% more to gheal is so massive that it trumps any difference in haste from a single item. When you get to this level, the difference a single item (2% more haste) makes in the frequency of landed heals with haste, is below the ability of human beings to perceive. 5% more healing on the other had is anything but unnoticable. Its easily the difference between a rank6 and a rank7 gheal. If you can drop the 4t6 bonus for 2% more haste, you can (using the 4t6) downrank to gheal rank 6 without any noticeable difference in healing output. Dropping the 4t6 bonus for 2% haste is like dropping your mace for one with 70odd haste rating.

More healing is more healing. There is always a way to use it. Haste might be more effective but when the difference is so large, that the only logical choice is the +healing. Swap an less good item with more haste somewhere else. The difference is still most probably going to be the equivallent of having an extra item.

If a high amount of gheal is used in a fight, and since 3 items of the set are allegedly best in class, keeping the 4t6 bonus is a no brainer. Of course there might be other reasons why a sunwell priest might prefer to use a slightly better item in a single slot at the cost of the 4t6 bonus, but neither efficiency nor tank safely can possibly be one of them.

Obviously if you are not using gheal much, it makes no sense to use the 4t6 bonus.

Schylla · 07/04/08, 8:00 AM

Basically you're arguing that the 5% is useful. I never said it wasn't. Nor did I say that one piece of haste makes up for +5% gheals. What I did say was in my extensive SW experience, I feel there is one encounter where the bonus is absolutely necessary and many others where it's lost in overheal. I just don't think it's typically necessary. And I certainly don't think it saves lives in SW other than M'uru p1 where every heal is key and maybe KJ warlock healer (if it's a priest which we've found is pretty much the best answer)

If you're LEARNING, then yes. By all means, stack in your favor. But by the time you're making the decision to lose the bonus, you're already killing KJ and everything should be completely stable in most fights anyway. At this point, healing is infinitely easier and you know exactly what dmg is happening where. If you're guild utilizes priests as primary tank healers (ie, you don't have paladins) then there's no argument. But if you're like many guilds that maximize priests' amazing raidhealing, then you're looking at fewer gheals on most SW encounters.

Havoc12 · 07/04/08, 8:29 AM

Originally Posted by Schylla

Basically you're arguing that the 5% is useful. I never said it wasn't. Nor did I say that once piece of haste makes up for +5% gheals. What I did say was in my extensive SW experience, I feel there is one encounter where the bonus is absolutely necessary and many others where it's lost in overheal. I just don't think it's typically necessary. And I certainly don't think it saves lives in SW other than M'uru p1 where every heal is key and maybe KJ warlock healer (if it's a priest which we've found is pretty much the best answer)

If you're LEARNING, then yes. By all means, stack in your favor. But by the time you're making the decision to lose the bonus, you're already killing KJ and everything should be completely stable in most fights anyway. At this point, healing is infinitely easier and you know exactly what dmg is happening where. If you're guild utilizes priests as primary tank healers (ie, you don't have paladins) then there's no argument. But if you're like many guilds that maximize priests' amazing raidhealing, then you're looking at fewer gheals on most SW encounters.

Well not exactly, I was not saying its useful in an abstract way. I meant its useful in terms of your itemsation and healing tactics. I.e. you can get a better return from 5% more healing on gheal if you are ghealing a lot regardless of overheal than by taking an item that gives you 2% more haste. I am certainly not attempting to discuss sunwell or sunwell healing tactics.

What I am saying is: If you are using a lot of gheal, *regardless* of overheal and pretty much *regardless* of the nature of the fight 5% more healing on gheal >> 2% haste. You can for example get a second copy of another couple of items, gem them completely for haste and use it with the 4t6 bonus, because the massive 5% bonus ends up giving you a better return overall despite the loss of the socket bonuses. Just an example of course, I am not arguing that is what people should do.

I am just referring to a very basic rule. If an apple is worth 10 oranges and you want to get 30 oranges, if someone gives you a choice between getting an apple or an orange for free, you will choose the apple, even if you dont need it. The reason is that even if you manage to exchange it with 5 oranges (though its worth 10) you still get 5 oranges for free instead of 1.

In the same way you can use that 5% bonus to get a better return overall when you are using a lot of gheal.

Schylla · 07/04/08, 1:15 PM

weak metaphor. But if you reread my first post, I already stated your "what I am saying"s. I know the information. But I think about it this way: Was it hard to for me to give up the T5 bonus? Yes. When I got enough T6 to give it up, did I find myself missing the mana? Never.

Now. If I found myself in a position where I were going to spam gheals the entire encounter with no help, I'd swith to T6 bonus. Without a doubt. But that doesn't really happen much in SW. Even so, at the point anyone is going to be making this decision, they are going to likely have been killing M'uru and KJ quite some time. And at that point, really, it's just a matter of personal taste. And my personal taste isn't to keep a bonus the zone rarely lets me take advantage of. Especially when you're on farm content by that point

constantius · 07/04/08, 2:02 PM

I think the serious question all true players have to ask themselves is ...

... will I ever wear 4-piece T6 including [Breeches of Absolution] just so my set matches? (in place of [Pantaloons of Calming Strife])

Sadly, I might ... at least in Shattrah. The combination of [Mantle of Absolution], [Robes of Faltered Light], [Cowl of Light's Purity], [Handguards of the Dawn] and [Belt of Absolution] is jarring. The helm/chest (and matching gloves/belt) *really* don't match the T6 shoulders.

For stat comparison, btw (all items end-game choices):

- set with [Breeches of Absolution] and [Shawl of Wonderment]: (Char Profile)

- set with [Pantaloons of Calming Strife] and [Mantle of Absolution]: (Char Profile)

From "optimal" (T6 shoulders) to change to "good looking with 4-piece" (T6 legs, Shawl) is a net change of (raid-buffed, with IDS, just for kicks)

-14 Mp5 (I5SR)
-69 Mp5 (OO5SR)
-47 HSE
+33 Spell Haste

pinchet · 07/04/08, 2:37 PM

What chest are you wearing in your avatar? It looks like a [Masquerade Gown].

constantius · 07/04/08, 7:00 PM

[Robes of Faltered Light]. That's my "what I'll be wearing as soon as M'uru stops being a tard" set. Just missing the robes from it, so I played a little creatively with the avatar.

Havoc12 · 07/05/08, 11:55 AM

Now, here is why i'm not going to follow it, and why--maybe--you might choose not to as well:
If you wanna talk numbers, look at your overheal generated from gheals and see if you can knock off 5%. If you're tank healing, it's probably gonna be at least 10%, usually much more. Now, think of your rationale for sticking with the T6 bonus. Probably something like "But that extra 5% could save a tank." To that, I find myself thinking "A steady stream of quicker heals would have kept the tank from ever dipping."
Other gheals targets are steady known-dmg targets like Twins Conflag, Felmyst Encapsulate, and Brutallus Burn. You know how much dmg is going to happen here and can rank accordingly. Is there a bit of mana to be saved from downranking with the T6 bonus up? Yes. But if you're serious about using consumables and have the skill to manage your mana (if you don't, zone out of SW immediately), mana isn't an issue until M'uru/KJ for priests.
Most of our tank healing is done by the Pally/Druid combo, usually with some Chainheals bouncing around the melee/tanks. That extra ~500 on your gheal is pretty much going to be lost if you're tank healing any fight but M'uru p1. I believe that if you go with a quicker steady gheal, you'll see fewer dips in single target health. It comes down to what you think will save your target.

You are saying:

if (proportion of gheal == high) then  
    if (5% on gheal != more overheal) then
        /equip 4t6 
    end
end

What I said is:

if (proportion of gheal == high) then 
   /equip 4t6
end

Reason: (5% on gheal != more overheal) == TRUE.

If you are saying that you can drop the 4t6 bonus even if you are ghealing a lot, because the 4t6 bonus gets lost in overheal, then its actually not true. The 4t6 bonus gives you a better return even if 99% of your gheals overheal. For an explanation of why this is true refer to above posts.

If you are saying that you can drop the 4t6 bonus because you are overgeared and the only way to increase your healing output now is to max out instants/CoH, with which the 4t6 bonus cannot help you with, that is not something I can comment on.

Schylla · 07/06/08, 8:40 AM

Originally Posted by Schylla

Now. If I found myself in a position where I were going to spam gheals the entire encounter with no help, I'd swith to T6 bonus. Without a doubt.

Apparently I wasn't clear enough. If you're going to be using gheals a lot and that's your style of play in sunwell on fights like Twins and Felmyst, then by all means do as you wish. I merely stated my reasoning that gheal isn't really as primary as it used to be, they way many guilds utilize healing class abilities in their setups. Although it's still very useful. It's up to you. You can make your own decisions. You really can. But again. By that time you have the available gear to MAKE that decision, it's all farm anyway so there's really no reason to go on and on about this. We've killed KJ and I'm still looking forward to making that decision down the line...the long line

Squishypants · 07/06/08, 1:44 PM

A little off topic but, Schylla I'm wondering why you opted for Royal Amethysts in your gear instead of purified or +10 spirit in a lot of your sockets? Everywhere I read people are 'lawl'ing about priests in mp5 gems. Though i've found that most of the time I'm over 80% in FSR and according to Regenfu should be using mp5.. =/

Schylla · 07/06/08, 2:55 PM

you're totally correct Squishy. My gems are a little off right now because I'm raiding on two classes with the same badge pool for gems. The pieces I have with mp5 still on them will most likely be replaced very soon, so I've been a bit cheap on not wanting to regem them. Also, it's kinda minor, I still go through the toughest mana encounters without a spriest and still don't have problems, so that's another reason I wasn't in a rush. Follow Nid's gem suggestions on the main post should you have any questions. Those are the right way.

constantius · 07/06/08, 7:15 PM

Just as a note, there is no situation (including 100% I5SR) where [Purified Shadowsong Amethyst] isn't better than [Royal Shadowsong Amethyst].

5 spirit => 5.775 spirit raid-buffed => 2.085 MP5 I5SR raid-buffed (from 30% meditation). As well, you get 1.44 HSE from the spirit. (assuming 666 raid-buffed intellect, which is what I happen to have

So even at 100% I5SR time, and assuming no IDS, Purified slightly edges out Royal. The more time OO5SR, obviously, the stronger Purified gets. So I'm not sure what RegenFu is on ... but ya, spirit gems > Mp5 gems. Always. It's not a *huge* benefit, if you already have Royals in your gear (like Scylla), but if it's a new piece of gear, obviously use Purifieds.

[e] If you run under 600 intellect, this is not quite true, but close. But who has under 600 int in T6 content?

tiltie · 07/07/08, 5:34 AM

I really appreciate the above discussions, they help a lot.

I'm currently trying to optimize my mana usage at Brutallus. After several personal changes, guild is now using 2 paladins and 2 priests/shammy to heal 2 warrior/paladin tanks. To avoid those "gibs", I am matching the haste of the other shammy/priest and staggering heals (by 1-1.25s) by looking at their castbars. Sometimes, when both of us cancel our heals, it'd take us a second or two to synchronize again. If all the stars aligned and the tank got a streak of zero-avoidance, the tank could die even without getting stomp. This does not happen very often, but the slight possibility is troublesome enough that I'm not canceling as much as I wanted to. Are there any tricks out there to synchronize heals with canceling?

Bjork · 07/07/08, 7:46 AM

Originally Posted by tiltie

I really appreciate the above discussions, they help a lot.

I'm currently trying to optimize my mana usage at Brutallus. After several personal changes, guild is now using 2 paladins and 2 priests/shammy to heal 2 warrior/paladin tanks. To avoid those "gibs", I am matching the haste of the other shammy/priest and staggering heals (by 1-1.25s) by looking at their castbars. Sometimes, when both of us cancel our heals, it'd take us a second or two to synchronize again. If all the stars aligned and the tank got a streak of zero-avoidance, the tank could die even without getting stomp. This does not happen very often, but the slight possibility is troublesome enough that I'm not canceling as much as I wanted to. Are there any tricks out there to synchronize heals with canceling?

I've never understood how syncing heals are even possible.

Your mana management on Brutallus (given that you're healing the MTs) should be that you downrank outside of Stomp and upgrank to max 5ish seconds before and until it's "safe" again. A priest can also place PoM+PW:S on a tank before taunt for 4,5k more HP during the transition, that helps a lot.

Vihermaali · 07/07/08, 8:25 AM

Originally Posted by Bjork

I've never understood how syncing heals are even possible.

Well it isn't. Lag, personal reaction times and differences in spellhaste makes it almost impossible to sync heals. Unless you aim for something huge like 2-second window.

If you have problems with both cancelling heals at same time, you should agree on who cancels heals and who doesn't. Make it only one persons job while the other one just spams away like nothing happened?

Personal opinion is that heals are "staggered" around much better when you don't even attempt to sync them.