A Preliminary Discussion of Shadow Priest Talents in WotLK - Page 11

kartu · 08/01/08, 9:16 AM

Originally Posted by Noura

Let's talk about Disc tree for once. Grace indeed tells me that (one) disc priest will be welcome in raids. Which leads me to think... Uh one single spec for both PvP and PvE healing (with 4 points stricly for pvp, mana burn and martyrdom, obviously the disc priest isn't the big healer anyways) ? amazing.

But given that we would have 2 easily switchable specs, what's the point?

Brinas · 08/01/08, 9:22 AM

Originally Posted by Noura

Let's talk about Disc tree for once. Grace indeed tells me that (one) disc priest will be welcome in raids. Which leads me to think... Uh one single spec for both PvP and PvE healing (with 4 points stricly for pvp, mana burn and martyrdom, obviously the disc priest isn't the big healer anyways) ? amazing.

There's a whole discussion about the disc tree here
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t27943-p...ew_discussion/

mako · 08/01/08, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Noura

...crittable yes for 150% damage.

Can anyone confirm if pain and suffering doesn't mess our ticks, and how does it work exactly please?

The most cool and sad thing at the same time is that we could prolly go heal or dps with the same gear (but different specs of course) given the changes on spellpower. More bag space yeah but talk about 12 people rolling against you on loots (i understand the final effect will be unchanged as there will be more loot in total and anyways loot with +hit will - i hope - be reserved to dps)

Let's talk about Disc tree for once. Grace indeed tells me that (one) disc priest will be welcome in raids. Which leads me to think... Uh one single spec for both PvP and PvE healing (with 4 points stricly for pvp, mana burn and martyrdom, obviously the disc priest isn't the big healer anyways) ? amazing.

Shadow priest thread is for shadow priests.

p&s doesn't cause you to miss ticks, it renews after the tick basically.

we are still only really competing between 3 classes, priest, mage, warlock. holy priest gear may end up better for us for dps due to it having spirit vs crit, but until level 80 itemization is revealed it's too early to make any conclusions.

Disc isn't going to be viable in it's current form, a holy would be superior in every way in the current build... but that's for the other thread.

Dutcherino · 08/03/08, 1:46 AM

I was just wondering if someone could clarify this talent.

Your Fade ability now has a 100% chance to remove all movement impairing effects when used while in Shadowform, and gives you a 70% chance to avoid interruption caused by damage when casting any Shadow spell while in Shadowform.

Does this mean that, by putting two points into this talent, the 70% chance to avoid interruption is passive? Or is it only available when fade is on? As a wild guess i'm guessing the latter.

• Snowy · 08/03/08, 1:54 AM

It's passive.

kartu · 08/03/08, 9:30 AM

2Guys who play beta

Whatt happened to +<school> dmg gear in beta? With +shadow in particular, was it also converted to +spell damage?

Jubling · 08/03/08, 9:49 AM

Originally Posted by kartu

2Guys who play beta

Whatt happened to +<school> dmg gear in beta? With +shadow in particular, was it also converted to +spell damage?

It's been reworded into "Increases shadow spell power by x." but is otherwise the same.

Tymir · 08/07/08, 1:00 AM

From what I have heard the nature of partial resists has changed significantly, some previously non-partially resistible spells became resistible (Frostbolt for example). Does anyone know if Mind Flay has undergone the same change?

Althor · 08/09/08, 2:44 AM

Originally Posted by Tymir

From what I have heard the nature of partial resists has changed significantly, some previously non-partially resistible spells became resistible (Frostbolt for example). Does anyone know if Mind Flay has undergone the same change?

It has.

• DeeNogger · 08/09/08, 3:29 AM

Whelp, the Mind Flay Glyth increases the range by 5 yards, and dumps the snare. So we were half right.

farlin · 08/09/08, 6:28 AM

Originally Posted by DeeNogger

Whelp, the Mind Flay Glyth increases the range by 5 yards, and dumps the snare. So we were half right.

Would anyone even bother to get this? It seems like such a trivial "buff" to remove the snare. I guess if you can switch Glyths out on the fly you can throw it on for a boss fight but even on things like hyjal trash id rather have the snare.

• Endahl · 08/09/08, 7:02 AM

Whether or not the Mind Flay Glyph's effect is applied before our range talent is factored in we'll still be stuck within 30 yards rather than at 31 or over, and any AoE'ing bosses balanced around mages' and locks' 36 yard range would render this glyph useless (and yet, out of the batch of priest glyphs in the new beta build, it's among the most useful).

Jubling · 08/09/08, 8:23 AM

There aren't even enough shadowpriest glyphs to fill out the glyph slots, only the Mind Flay and SW: D ones do something useful for a raiding shadowpriest. And evidence suggests that glyphs are overwritten like enchants, and not swapped like gear.

Morthoul · 08/09/08, 8:25 AM

Originally Posted by farlin

Would anyone even bother to get this? It seems like such a trivial "buff" to remove the snare. I guess if you can switch Glyths out on the fly you can throw it on for a boss fight but even on things like hyjal trash id rather have the snare.

I'd rather have longer range on trash, at least in BT and Sunwell. A lot of it AEs, and/or comes in large packs, and if I get close enough to put myself in Mind Flay range of most of the pull, I end up losing some DPS time to avoiding AEs, or casting pushback from AEs, or shielding myself. It's not a lot, but I'd rather have the range than the snare.

Proxy · 08/09/08, 9:33 AM

Those Glyphs are not impressive at all for shadow priests. The extra range for MF is handy in some situations, but does nothing for the scaling issues of the class. The only dps boost is for SWD, which scales badly, has a long cooldown is only a minor bonus and is only situationally usable. The extra duration on SWP is useless, as MF will be used primarily to refresh the SWP duration indefinitely, while also doing a little bit of dps for a small amount of mana.

I'd rather have seen a glyph that increased MF scaling or reduced MB/SWD cooldown or something. That'd be impressive.

OT: the spirit of redemption glyph sounds awesome though. ("the best priest, is a dead priest")

Ptoleman · 08/09/08, 10:43 AM

I can't really say much about the Glyphs. There are barely any ones for Shadow Priests, and they're only a preview--a somewhat depressing preview. The Mind Soothe Glyph is just awful.

As for the scaling increases/fixes, 90% chance those will not happen (if they happen) until the DPS testing phase of Beta, which seems a long way off. More patience in that area, please.

• DeeNogger · 08/09/08, 9:32 PM

With the changes to Inner Fire and the +5 yard range Glyph to Mind Flay, I think the following build might be the best min/max for shadow dps, assuming there isnt a mob that is constantly moving away from the caster (and thus giving increased MF range more significance).

16/0/55 Build

The point in Inner Fire, in exchange for both points in Shadow Reach, gives you an additional 12 spell power (lvl 77 Inner Fire is +120 Spell Power, 10% of that is 12). Certainly it will take some getting used to, but if the fight is like most in WoW (stand here, shoot this, avoid the fire) than I think it will be a good exchange (spell power for range). One could also dump a point from Improved Shadow Forum (for only 35% push back resistance) and put a point back into Shadow Reach.

• DeeNogger · 08/09/08, 10:40 PM

To Expound upon my previous post (I am bored). Going through all of wow classic, and each tier of TBC raiding, one can, to a degree, objectively comment on the usefulness of an increased range. With 2/2 reach not only is your minimum maximum range (Oxy moron?) is 24 yards with your maximum maximum range being 36 yards for SW:P, Mind Blast, etc. Without 2/2 Shadow Reach you are at 20 yards for your min max and 30 yards for everything else.

WoW Classic:
With the exception of maybe Barron, all of the Molten Core and Black Wing lair boss encounters make no difference with the various sets of range on our spell abilities. Its only a matter of running in to 20 yards instead of 24 at the beginning of the fight. Baron being the exception as I think his AoE nova ability will be able to get you at 20 yards but not 24 meaning you would have to run in and out, to some degree, like melee dps. A thousand Tears.

AQ40 Fights have a lot of movement in them, so having to run an additional 4 yards would eat some dps time on fights like Skeram and Twin Emps (If you are dpsing on Vek'lor). However, the huge advantage to the build with 2/2 Reach would be felt on Saurtura where standing at a farther range is safer and you will be able to dps her more as she bounces around like the annoying bitch she is.

Naxx fights I have only done in lvl 70 raids (with full T6 raiders too) so I cant comment critically on which encounters would benifit which build, if either. However, most from what I have seen wouldnt lean heavily towards either range sets.

The Burning Crusade:
T4, Like Molten Bore, is all so simplistic that the range doesnt matter much. Though, like Baron, Prince in Karazhan has a running in/out component that a SP that only has to run in to 24 yards would get fractions of seconds over the SP that runs in to 20 yards. T5 is similar, the extra range has no huge advantage in fights with the exception of one: Leo. Just like Sartura, that bouncy fucker is always easier to deal with from as far away as possible. VR would probably be easier from a greater distance (more time to dodge orbs) but, lets be honest, if you cant avoid giant orbs of light slowly moving towards your face, chances are you shouldnt be playing wow, you should be eating bugs in the sand box.

Hyjal is yawn, range doesnt matter in all the fights. Black Temple the extra range can maybe help with squeezing out more unnecessary dps on P2 of Suppremus -- its all about the dick swinging on the DM's, right? The rest of the BT encounters are, again, neutral on weather you are 24/36 or 20/30. Sun well encounters are of a similar vein, though I have not done P2 Muru or KJ, both of which might have some sensitivity to range.

Ptoleman · 08/10/08, 1:00 AM

The increased range is a matter of convenience. It need be said that we do not *need* a 36-yard Mind Flay. It has never broken us in raids, nor caused us any major problems. All the whining about Mind Flay's range is just that: whining.

That said, I still prefer increased range. A 30-yard Mind Flay will be much appreciated.

Proxy · 08/10/08, 6:00 AM

Extra range on MF will sometimes have you start casting earlier on some 'get out the fire' moments, granting you maybe an extra tick. The chance for such an extra tick alone is worth more than +12 spelldmg I'd say.

Ptoleman · 08/10/08, 11:54 PM

Apparently a Blue has implied that Vampiric Touch is raid-wide in the expansion. So sayeth Ghostcrawler:

I think these are very valid questions.

We haven't finished our discussions on this issue yet, so I can't provide much of an update.

I do think there are alternatives to having more non-stacking buffs. For example, we could give each DK tree an ability (or abilities if that's what it takes) so awesome that the Enhancement shammies are the ones who have to fight for a raid spot. We could try to give each of the 30 talent trees in the game some amazing buff or debuff for the raid and hope that there aren't 5 specs with buffs so crappy that they just don't get to raid.

We could also just declare that 5 specs are PvP only and assume raids are built with the other 25.

I don't think anyone would argue (except maybe the shammies) that having 5 or 6 of one class in a 25-player raid is good thing for a game with 10 classes. If you are a raid leader, I would definitely not assume that your Naxx and Ulduar raids will have the same composition as your BT and Sunwell raids* -- even ignoring the DK and looking at other changes might suggest that's a bad idea.

One more thing to keep in mind during these discussions: almost every party buff applies to the raid now. That simple change alone means that raiding compositions could end up very different. Do you need 3 shadow priests if they provide mana for the whole raid? Do you need more than one enhancement shaman?

* - Unless you just have 25 outstanding raiders or really close friends and value that over class synergy, which I think is kind of awesome.

Can we get a confirmation on this?

Althor · 08/11/08, 1:14 AM

The tooltip still says party only.

And if VT was changed so that it was raid only, you'd still stack Shadow Priests like you would currently because VT would also stack. And if VT *didn't* stack then the grand total maximum number of Shadow Priests you'd ever want to bring to a raid is 1 because any more than that and you get a class that does poor DPS and brings absolutely nothing else to the table after 1 is brought along (If they made VT raid wide, they 'd probably make VE raid wide). AFAIK Blizzard don't particularly want classes to bring at *most* 1 of any spec. They just want to make it desirable to bring at least 1 and less desirable to bring more than 1.

Proxy · 08/11/08, 4:04 AM

Imagine the threat you'll be outputting when VE'ing a whole raid.

dedmonwakeen · 08/11/08, 10:25 AM

SimulationCraft update: Added talent/glyph support for Druid-Balance, Priest-Holy, Priest-Shadow, Shaman-Elemental, Shaman-Enhancement.

My main is a SP, so I just about cried after coding up the Druid/Shaman Glyphs........

One Druid Glyph is on par with Pain&Suffering while another put Moonfire almost on par with SWP. Ugh.

tedv · 08/11/08, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Proxy

Imagine the threat you'll be outputting when VE'ing a whole raid.

For those not in the know, Vampiric Embrace doesn't get any threat reduction from Shadow Affinity, only from Blessing of Salvation. And mana regen effects (like Vampiric Touch) never modify threat for any reason. If you've seen your threat climb during Gurtogg Bloodboil's fel rage phase, that's why. It's mana regen threat and there's nothing you can do about it.

Originally Posted by DeeNogger

With the changes to Inner Fire and the +5 yard range Glyph to Mind Flay, I think the following build might be the best min/max for shadow dps, assuming there isnt a mob that is constantly moving away from the caster (and thus giving increased MF range more significance).

16/0/55 Build

The point in Inner Fire, in exchange for both points in Shadow Reach, gives you an additional 12 spell power (lvl 77 Inner Fire is +120 Spell Power, 10% of that is 12). Certainly it will take some getting used to, but if the fight is like most in WoW (stand here, shoot this, avoid the fire) than I think it will be a good exchange (spell power for range). One could also dump a point from Improved Shadow Forum (for only 35% push back resistance) and put a point back into Shadow Reach.

I think you're underestimating the value of having all other spells having a 36 yard range. While 24 yards is something we've learned to live with, 29 is just amazingly better and well worth the talent points. I also contend that spending 3 talent points for 12 spell damage is a poor trade, and talents like improved Vampiric Embrace would help a lot more. I'd probably run something like this:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Note the trimmed point in Pain and Suffering, as a 66% refresh chance should be sufficient, especially with the +3 second to Shadow Word Pain glyph. The glyph is terrible but we'll use it because we have no other options.