I ran some simple napkin math a little while back and came to the following conclusions:

- Roughly 30% increase in damage over current DPS levels.
- Mana regen cut in half (2/5ths of 130% is 52%)
- Crit rating moves from 6 crit = 1 damage to 3 crit = 1 damage, still blows.
- It's virtually impossible to run out of mana

Keep in mind that one of the major mana sinks is actually shadow word pain (costing us over 100 m/5 to keep it up at current levels). Getting free refreshes on mind flays doesn't just buy us 1.5 seconds of "real" DPS time. It saves a boatload of mana. Plus improved spirit tap combined with Meditation will be nutty good. Mana is a complete non-issue, even with doubled spell costs.

Also, it's very hard to judge the value of increased mana regeneration. Other classes are getting better base mana regen by making spirit more useful. On the other hand, even though we regen less mana, it's possible that 200 m/5 can add more to longevity in the next patch than 400 m/5 does now. For example, consider these totally fabricated values.

Suppose right now a warlock needs an extra 600 m/5 to survive on this fight and we can provide 400 of that. They are down 200 m/5. But maybe due to the spirit changes, they will only need 250 m/5 next patch, and we reduce that to a 50 m/5 deficit. They may actually get more longevity in the context of that situation than in the current context. We just don't know, and we can't really speculate.

The one thing that's clear is that every raid will absolutely want at least one shadow priest for Misery and Shadow Weaving. And with 30 class/talent spec combos for a 25 man raid, being guaranteed a slot for every fight in the game seems pretty good. There will be fights where it's okay to bring a second, I'm sure, but raids will never want a third shadow priest. This is a reduction from the current raid standard where two is ideal and three is acceptable, but it's clearly change that improves balance. (Being 1 of 30 options selected 1 time for a group of 25 is more balanced than being 1 of 30 options selected 2 times for a group of 25.)

So like it or not, this is a totally warranted nerf. I don't care what the DPS numbers say. Shadow Priests are still overpowered, and these changes aim to fix that.

Just me or do the talent calculators blizzard have posted on their homepages say 5% for VT instead of the intended change to 2%?

I can't say I agree with your numbers or your conclusions.

You're saying that your napkin math suggests a 30% boost in DPS.
Dedmon's simulator and other people's math suggest it's nearer to 10% which is at best, inline with other classes.

You're saying that the value of crit rating to +dmg goes from 6:1 to 3:1. At level 80 it's looking like you'll need more than double the crit rating you have now to achieve the same amount of +crit%. So even if it was at 3:1 at 70 that would put it back up to 6:1.

The mana cost of spells at level 80 appears to have doubled with only a very small increase in base DPS.

Also the regen scaling coefficient is not going to be the same at 80 as it is at 70. You'll need more +int and +spi to achieve the same regen at 80 as you do at 70.

Furthermore, the only way Shadoweaving will be useful to the raid is if the ideal Warlock spec involves the casting of a decent number of Shadowbolts (or Affliction is a viable spec). In the high end of TBC I'm led to believe that Fire is the dominant Warlock spec currently. Vontre seems to be saying that a mixed shadow/fire Warlock spec might work in WotLK but I guess that remains to be seen. Of course Fire spec locks also rely upon Scorch being up which means it relies upon there being a Fire mage in the raid which (if you ignore elementalist spec) isn't a sure thing as Frost is apparently more DPS currently.

What we *do* bring of course is Misery. Shadowweaving as I've mentioned has limited use. At with our VT at 2% our mana regen utility is heavily reduced.
Compared to some of the raid utility gains other classes seem to have I know I for one would be looking for a decent DPS boost so that we match the other hybrids rather than languishing far below them as we currently do.

Althor:

Overall DPS increases from 70 to 80 causing an increase in critical strike rating to increase dps by a larger magnitude, the scaling of spell damage remains relatively the same. Although the rating requirement to obtain 1% crit does increase, these two conflicting trends should offset each other somewhat.

The int/spirit required per Mp5 increasing with level is somewhat irrelevant since there will be a commensurate increase in stats available on level 80 equipment.

Although the situation may change with WotLK, Fire Warlocks have failed to remain competitive on Brutallus, as have Ice Mages (although you may have meant Ice Mages in WotLK).

I have just finished updating my spreadsheet to account for WotLK Beta talents and raid buffs and the results are not far from Tedv's napkin math. There's a 43% increase in DPS, 43.5% reduction in mp5 from VT, a 3.4 crit to damage ratio(without including increased Improved Spirit Tap uptime). It should be noted that much of the DPS increase is the result of raid buffs so Shadow Priests won't be doing 43% more damage in relation to other classes since they will benefit from the same new buffs as us.

Anyone who would like to see the results RapidShare: Easy Filehosting

For some odd reason you're assuming that the item levels are going to stay the same from 70 to 80 and that there wont be more crit rating on level 80 items. Also, the total amount of crit on an item has no effect on the benefit of a single point of crit rating to an individual class. Your argument just doesn't make sense.

It's not just you.

Either that's a typo or they've reverted the nerf, but I doubt the latter, given the patch notes.

But if it wasn't...

Does anybody have any information on how other DPS classes are scaling? A 10% DPS increase number was thrown around, but what's the math behind that?

As counter-intuitive as it sounds, the calculators are not the most up-to-date info that's out there. Will edit in the quote on this as soon as I can find it again.

Not really sure where I land on this one. While it will take more crit rating to achieve the same 1% crit, you're also modifying stronger spells. I'm sure that stacking +dmg will still be the real way to go on a SPriest while picking up whatever Spirit you can and just relying on the crit% from Shadow Power to proc Imp Taps. We'll have around 15-20% crit on MB and SW on raids in WotLK if I had to guess... with roughly 3 chances per 12 seconds to proc and a 15% crit rate, we've got a ~39% shot at 8 seconds of Imp Spirit Tap every 12 seconds.

[quote=Althor;821459]Also the regen scaling coefficient is not going to be the same at 80 as it is at 70. You'll need more +int and +spi to achieve the same regen at 80 as you do at 70.[quote]

Far as I can guess, the BASE_REGEN in the 2.4 formula at level 80 will be roughly 0.008225 compared to the 0.009327 we enjoy right now.

With 600int and 600spi, you'll be going from ~685mana/5 to 604mana/5. We'd need roughly 51int + 51spi to get back to 685/5 regen. That is a pretty shitty deal.

I really can't say I agree with the implementation of the BASE_REGEN coefficient that they've added into the formula. Things like Spellpower, Attack Power and anything that doesn't deliver performance increases on a percentage based level should NOT be diminishing in effectiveness as you level. Casters already fight an uphill battle with higher Crit Rating --> Crit % returns than melee and now we have to fight our diminishing regeneration as we level too.

Imagine if 10 Stam at level 80 only gave you 90hp?

1 mana/5 on your gear at 70 will still be 1 mana/5 at 80, so I don't really get the logic here.

They either need to rework the entire 2.4 regen model to use one unified BASE_REGEN value, or freeze the BASE_REGEN value at its level 70 state and call it a day. As it stands right now, the only thing on a caster that won't be diminished by leveling is our Spellpower and mana pool.

The only class that should be effected by regeneration as they level is Warriors who then have to make it up at 80 with gear.

Priests used to simply be Spirit/4 and that was that. While I agree that our current regen from Spirit is far more inline with what it should have always been, I think we need a uniform regen model for all levels so that Spirit doesn't diminish in effectiveness.

Does anyone know if Twisted Faith (+5% damage for each DoT your target is afflicted by) works with Devouring Plague? That is, If I have SW:P and VT up (+10%) and then cast DP, do I get +15%? I assume it would work, but since DP is an undead racial and a disease, there is a chance it wont (though that would be obnoxious).

Not tried myself but I heard DP doesn't work with the talent.
Also, the range reduction on mind flay is really annoying. Ignoring any balance issues (just ditch the snare,) it 's an awkward mechanic to cast from max range then wait or approach your target to flay.

I thought MF range was increased?

Mind Flay is such a terrible snare I don't know why it suffered the penalty in the first place. No other snare in the game requires any maintanance after the initial cast. I'd be okay with them changing it to read "Deals X damage every second for 3 seconds and reduces the targets movement speed by 50% for 5-10 seconds." It would then be in the same class as every other snare spell and would warrent a decrease damage component (Especially since you could cast it on one target, cancel right away and then cast on another target).

The only thing the current version has going for it is spamability. Druids can shift out of it...cancelling the damage component that you were probably going for in the first place. However, I can't advocate the removal of the snare effect completely as that would hurt our pvp viability and our ability to assist kiters and buy time for healers. We already have trouble gaining space from melee in pvp I don't really want our best method of maintaining space taken away.

So even though it's been said a thousand times, I think the best answer is to give us another spamable spell to fill the MB/SWD cooldown time but leave Mind Flay alone so we still have our snare spell (shoddy as it may be). Crit scaling would be nice but I'd almost rather see another supplimentary effect such as part of the damage as mana drain or a stat reduction effect.

MF range is definitely still 20 yards.

i hate sounding like a negative nancy all the time. But I do hold out the hope that SPs will get some increased attention such that I can get excited to play my character when the Xpac rolls around.

So my latest beef:

No one can argue that Shadowpriest niche is mana return, and near passive party heals.

The sheer number of party mana returns. We have survival hunters, resto druids, and ret pallies all returning mana to the party. Ret pallies return 20% of their judgment dmg to the party, surv hunters return 2% mana for every crit shot with a 8 sec cooldown (talented this chance is at 100%), and resto druids have a 15% per tick of rejuv to do the same thing.

Group mana returns from other classes coupled with the DK's Aura of blood and blood presence and every single healer class having a group heal..doesn't this dilute a SP's role in the raid?

We have 2 dps classes Surv hunter and Ret pallies who traditionally have higher dps than Shadowpriest provide, not only mana, but rage, rune power, and mana. We have another DPS/Tank class that provides passive heals.

Am I overreacting? I think many have decided that looking at only the SP changes that only 1 raid slot would be justified, given the above changes, could that one slot still be justified?

And, even if you were to assume that i am overeacting in terms of raid composition, I can't help but feel at least that the flavor of the class has been diminished.

I am on the beta, and I can say one simple thing about SPs on beta. Our playstyle has not changed one bit. We have the same cast and spell rotations, soloing hasn't changed, and i suspect neither will grouping. It doesn't feel like an expansion at all, just class tweaks. (Obviously the zones etc). Even if the changes hadn't destabilized the balance of the class, it hasn't made it more fun to play. Now, don't misunderstand, my char is still damn fun to play, but i was hoping that when i pay that $$ for the expansion i could feel as if i am playing with something new. (I am not using twisted faith atm, since all my gear has no spirit on it. Imp Spirit tap is good, but it doesn't change how i kill things or what i cast. I have not used dispersion.. btw, can someone tell me why dispersion isnt' just a dreamless sleep potion that can double as a "i pulled aggro" button, but it still isn't an aggro dump?).

What is most disturbing is that while other classes are talking about changes to their new toys, we don't.. not because i think we are all happy, but rather there are no new toys to play with. Mind Sear not dealing single target dmg makes the spell so situational, that it hardly becomes useful at all. i find it telling that no one here has talked about playing on the beta, or talking about trying out their new skills/spells.

Anyhow, if I level up my Shadowpriest on beta and I feel differently once I can instance or even raid at the end of beta, I'll post my change of mind. Until then, I promise not to continue whining.

If anyone has questions they would like me to investigate, I am happy to try and answer. I have been mostly playing my DK, but will make time to test any questions people may have.

With 10 classes in game, Blizzard is trying to cut down on stacking of certain classes (priest, paladin, shaman). Roughly 2.5 of each class per raid would be "ideal". So 2 of 5 classes, and then 3 of the others. With several classes having more than simply two roles, it makes more sense to give those classes the spots.

Shaman, Druid, Paladin, for example, could feasibly have 3 in raid with different specs and be equally viable for separate roles.

So while there will likely be two priests in majority of raids, it does seem like they want to generally only require one for a balanced group.

Then again, if JoW mana regen isn't enough to compensate for the level 80 increase spell cost (as several hunters seem to believe, myself not included) then two shadow priests would stay standard.

Edit: For playstyle changes, I think shadow priests are right where they should be. Our spell sequence is dynamic, besides encounter specific nuances such as stopping dps, moving, etc, we simply cast strings of spells based on our own preference and what we feel is ideal. Most classes simplify their cast into a trivial rotation such as 8xfireball 1xscorch, which leads for rather dull play. Hence why those classes strive to find something that's "better" in terms of damage and interactivity.

Plus, I'd say most of shadow's boosts are pvp-centric. It should be night and day between TBC and WotLK shadow priest pvp, even if the changes we got (and talents added) are things that are long overdue.

What do you guys think about the hit changes? Only 3% hit with talents, will we socket hit later on?

So you think they are lowering the level of bosses?

Actually the best guess from the test server is that they are changing the nature of spell hit to be more like melee hit. Miss chance can be reduced to 0% instead of 1% and there is less of a penalty for fighting monsters 3 levels above you (as all bosses are).

Tymir,

My sim isn't even in the same ballpark as yours......

Would you mind providing a few details to help me understand the difference?

(1) Stats of the virtual Shadow Priest you are analyzing
(2) Consumable Buffs
(3) Raid Buffs
(4) Level 70 spells?

I'm particularly interested in what new raid buffs exist that would push our dps increase so high.....

Thanks!

That's excellent. So (apparently) we don't need to worry much about hit at all anymore. That's very good. Looks like hit won't be much of an important stat for most classes.

It is also ridiculously unwise to start making judgments about classes and their benefits this early in the beta. Hunting Party's chance to give back mana has/will be reduced to 60% at max, making it a much less impressive talent. The Moonkin mana return talents were removed some time ago; there's nothing in their talent tree now that allows them to give mana back to the party.

We're also getting a sizeable DPS boost, from what we can predict, and we still haven't seen the actual end-game raiding situation. Also, you're not using Twisted Faith is your own loss, bar none.

As for playstyle matters, I prefer Shadow Priesting over any over DPS spec. Why would I want to spam the same spell five thousand times in a boss fight? Even with Pain and Suffering I still have to manage 4/5 spells constantly on different durations and cooldowns. This is a matter of opinion, however.

Mind Sear is an AoE spell, id est, it's situational. You don't spam Seed of Corruption or Flamestrike on a boss. To expect otherwise is ludicrous.

Even if our mana return has been cut by 60%, 60% of infinity is still pretty sizeable, and our DPS is getting increased. It may not be radical, but it is there.

I don't see much reason to worry, to be honest.

The moonkin talent is removed, but not the Resto Druid talent, nor have you mentioned the ret pally talents.

The question hasn't been whether or not we suffered a nerf overall. We haven't. It is debateable about whether we have been buffed.

But collectively, I don't think it is debateable that our roles as party-wide mana batteries and health returns has been diminished, if not directy (the vt nerf) then indirectly (other class ae talents).

And my "decision" not to use twisted faith makes perfect sense with my current itemization.. i have no spirit in my gear, and don't have disc priest around to give me spirit. For soloing purposes which is where i am at, i won't be using twisted faith, until i get new gear, which i won't until at least my mid 70s.

But regardles, twin disciplines, imp spirit tap, twisted faith are ALL passive changes to the character. They didn't change anything about how we cast, what we do. They don't add anything. On beta playing my priest feels absolutely the same as when i am on live. This isn't the case with ANY of my other characters. My shaman (resto) not only has a different talent tree setup, but got a whole lot more interesting wtih spirit link, tidal wave, and i imagine earthliving weapon. Hell, the whole class got an interesting overall. My lock has also changed. I got to test out Molten core, versus empowerment, versus empowered imp etc etc. My Shadow priest does nothing different.

I mean.. are people really eager to try out Dispersion? Are people biting at the bit to figure out exactly how to use Pain and Suffering and Twisted Faith?

Put it this way, out of all the class WoTLK threads on this forum, we have the absolute least number of postings, even though we started our thread LONG before they did. People are not posting, mostly cause there is little to post about.

Compare the changes to SP to changes to Ret (who got an absolute ENORMOUS buff on dps, ret pallies on beta are posting ridiculous numbers), enhance shamans got similar buffs, and Moonkin druids, all trees of hunters, mages. and warlocks, as a rule they all not only see a dps increase, but "utility" increases as well.

Take a look at the other class threads, and look at how people are far more interested in seeing their changes on beta. I posted an open offer to test things out for any of you with questions about the shadow priest on beta, and i haven't seen a single request. I had not heard about the spell miss changes, though that seems a bit odd given how locks now also have a destro + hit talent to go with suppression.

It's not that i think we are underpowered, but I was hoping after 2 years and adding 10 levels with new talents, that it would be something more than just a class fix and dispersion.

Bah, I posted another bitch post when I said i wouldn't. I am just frustrated that the only response i get, is "we are still powerful." Never was the argument. We just got nothing interesting, not even a shiney and useless toy. I mean.. have people seen the changes to Affliction locks? Eradication as a talent, haunt as a spell are all fascinating.. and could have EASILY ended up on our tree. They get twisted faith incorporated into Fel Armor, and we get....

Although I agree that we got nothing "shiny" or "damn, i really want to try that out" your posts are very whiney in tone and don't really help the situation out.

I am actually quite excited about the pvp changes we are recieving. At 60 I was an anti-melee caster. Rogues avoided me and warriors hated the site of me. At 70 I am bar none the squishiest caster around. My armor is lower than it was at 60...my fear breaks before the GCD and I have no other active escape maneuvers or damage capability under fire. Improved Shadowform, Phsychic Horror, Pain and Suffering, and Dispersion are absolutely awesome answers to this. Three of the four of them also have good pve implications. So although they aren't "OMGWTBBETAKEYOFFEBAY!" I am certain that they class and playstyle that I love will continue to hold my interest as well as being powerful, functional and considerably more versatile than it is currently.

And as for "shiny new toys" just pray for a new spell. Shadow Word: Death was a very shiny very new toy that made a big difference in how we play.


*Edit: Grammer