Not really. Reactive heals give the threat to the person healed because they are buffs that allow the player to heal themselves. Think of Earth Shield. It lasts 10 minutes - the caster could be across the zone from the player receiving the healing.

Lightwell is the same way. Imagine how 'counterintuitive' it would feel if you dropped a Lightwell, wandered away, and someone healed themselves - sending a mob flying halfway across the zone to kill the very surprised healer.

Or consider the poor Warlock in your raid who gets munched by the boss because a bunch of Rogues decide to fire off their healthstones.

Think of how horribly dead your Enhancement Shaman would be if he got threat for his group's Windfury procs.

For basically all spells/effects, you gain threat for casting the spell - but the effect is tied to the effect's user.

For MT-healing only? I dunno - I cast more than just one heal when I'm healing, and even if I'm MT healing I don't completely ignore other raid members unless the MT needs 100% attention.

Also, I took a comment you made and went off on a tangent with it, sorry about that.

Here's a big one:

According to my math, the Replenishment buff will make intellect the strongest mana regeneration stat for every caster with at least 30% mana regeneration while casting. The math doesn't even factor in base mana, just intellect from equipment.

1 intellect = 15 mana

Replenishment
Replenishes 0.5% of maximum mana every sec.

15 * 0.005 = 0.075 mana restored per second for each point of intellect.

That equals 0.375 mp5.

Since I do not know the base regeneration and typical intellect values at 80, I'll use level 70 ones. Perhaps a kind person can help out here. In the meantime I'll go with 650 intellect and spirit for this. 30% regeneration while casting is assumed.

Increasing spirit to 651 from 650 will give an additional 0.356 mp5 while casting.
Increasing intellect to 651 from 650 will give an additional 0.553 mp5 while casting (0.178 mp5 from increased mana regeneration, plus the 0.375 gained from Replenishment)

Point per point intellect is 55% better than spirit for mana regeneration as long as Replenishment is always up. Two raid members providing Replenishment should ensure that in 25 man raids all mana users have Replenishment for the whole fight.

Question: But there's more to spirit than just regeneration, right?
Answer: Spiritual Guidance isn't enough to shift the balance of power towards spirit however. Its effect is that of increasing the overall value of spirit by 17.5% in terms of item budget if I'm understanding this correctly, or about to the same as 0.356*1.175 = 0.418 mp5 which is lower than the 0.553 given by intellect.

Question: What about Spirit of Redemption and Human Spirit?
Answer: Human Spirit will be reduced to 5%, and SoR is 5%. This can be treated as simple multiplier if I'm not mistaken, so 0.418*1.1 = 0.4601 mp5 which is still behind the 0.553 given by intellect.

Question: What about Blessing of Kings?
Answer: it shouldn't change the outcome of the comparison.

Question: What about using different values than the 650 intellect and spirit?
Answer: good question, I'll make sure to check various levels of gear and int/spi ratios when I find time.

Question: How was the mana regeneration calculated?
Answer: a simple excel spreadsheet. Feel free to check the numbers.

Edit: corrected Spiritual Guidance values.

http://elitistjerks.com/882141-post985.html

Some already did a more complete table accounting for different FSR times & values of spirit/int. To me, the biggest flaw with both of these arguments is that you are assuming that the priest will be receiving the replenishment buff 100% of the time. If indeed it is restricted to the raid members with lowest mana, yes, this holds in a 10 man, but it's far from clear to me that in a 25 man, a priest can necessarily count on having the buff 100% of the time.

100% replenishment uptime for all mana using players is a very fair assumption given current beta mechanics.

Unless the replenishment buff is able to stack, it's very clear to me that given a 25 man setting in which there are at least two replenishment granting players, all mana users should have 100% uptime for all theoretical calculations. If we assume that in any normal raid at least 5 players will be some combination of warriors, rogues, and deathknights (a fair assumption), then there are no more than 20 targets for replenishment, meaning that those two players are able to cover the entire raid with perfect uptime. True, this doesn't take into account warlock pets or water elementals, but it also doesn't take into account feral druids sitting on max mana or any warriors, death knights, and rogues beyond the first 5.

For the most part I have a similar point of view. In particular, I would like more decisions to be evidence-based as opposed to being based on myths, current trends in playstyle, and anecdotes. Hopefully these forums can serve a MythBusters role.

However, I do a lot of statistical analysis in real life and have taken the time to go through large amounts of data from WWS and combat logs especially to look at healing habits and characteristics. While I've definitely learned a lot doing that, I question whether one can reliably "make conclusions about the value of certain playstyles". In fact, I'd even say that idea (the idea that sifting through enough data will allow one to make hard conclusions) is itself a bit of a myth.

At the end of the day, the biggest thing I noticed about playstyle was that very experienced healers who in my subjective judgment were "good healers" tended to use a wider variety of spells and abilities than newer, less experienced healers. My theory is that they're better at picking the right tool for the right job as opposed to spamming the same strategy on every encounter. However, I think we all know there are cases where spamming one spell is "good playstyle", so this logic would only apply if you're looking at data collected from a variety of healing encounters.

So I now don't like it when I see a shammy who casts chain heal.... and that's it, 99% of the time. It's not that chain heal isn't good -- it's that only spamming it is a surrogate marker for a player who maybe has less situational awareness than others, and in most cases I want healers who rapidly adapt to changing circumstances. Note that spamming chain heal does generate very pretty healing done numbers, so a pattern of only using chain heal might also hint such a player is more likely chasing numbers than paying attention. In any event, when I see a player only using one or two healing abilities, it's a least a yellow flag to me. But even that heuristic breaks down when you start talking about pally heals...

But for priests, beyond seeing some variety, I can't really define good versus bad playstyles. Probably 'gut feeling' is at least as good as anything then (assuming an observant player).

Still, I'd like it if we had a way to tackle this problem scientifically, with real evidence. I just don't know how it could be done. Any specific suggestions? There is certainly a lot of data out there -- that's not the problem. The problem is "What does it all really mean?"

Latest Holy Changes {Build 8926}:

Improved Holy Concentration - Improves the chance you'll enter Holy Concentration by 3%, and also increases your spell haste by 30% for the next Greater Heal, Flash Heal or Binding Heal spells after you gain Holy Concentration. Lasts 20 sec.

Test of Faith - Increases healing by 6% and spell critical effect chance by 6% on friendly targets at or below 50% health.

Serendipity - If your Greater Heal or Flash Heal spells heal your target over maximum health, you are instantly refunded 25% of the spell's mana cost.

EDIT: Seems I'm too slow

The new change to Serendipity is awesome, but I really don't understand why they felt like the nerfs to IHC and Test of Faith were needed.

It's easier to nerf the competing Holy tree than it is to buff the Disc tree. It should have been expected but I think we were all very optimistic after seeing the love being spread around to other talent trees for other classes.

At a glance (all at max rank):

1. Improved Inner Fire down to 45%

2. Rapture Changed, not clear how.

3. Renewed Hope down to 4%.

4. GCD reduction on Borrowed Time nerfed (I think it's a nerf, anyway).

5. Serendipity now returns 25% of the mana cost of the spell.

6. Improved Holy Concentration increases proc rate by 3%, increases spell haste by 30%.

7. Test of Faith: Increases healing and spell critical chance by 6% now.

8. Improved Spirit Tap: Increases total Spirit by 10%, and increases in-combat mana regeneration by 20%.

9. Shadow Resilience: Change reverted back to TBC? Could be a mistake.

10. Improved Shadowform: Fade effect removed.

11. Twisted Faith: Increases spellpower by 10% of Spirit.

12. Dispersion: Reduces damage by 60%, now only regenerates mana.


Empowered Healing appears to have been buffed, and Improved Fade is now a new talent, decreasing Fade cooldown and Shadowfiend cooldown.

Keep in mind that Empowered Healing is only now being adjusted to bring it where it is currently in TBC, as it was considerably worse before.

Unbreakable Will is still not corrected to the value it should be at - doubled (to 30%) - like every other class.

Ouch. Those are some fairly harsh nerfs - they have more than halved the benefit of imp. Holy Concentration.

They have also rebalanced Test of Faith (6%/6% additional healing/crit), which I find odd as if anything you'd prefer heals to be more consistent (i.e. >% additional heal, <% crit) when spamming on a target with < 50% health.

You leave out a big part though, it now returns 25% of the mana cost on every overheal i.e. like the 2 piece Tier5 bonus instead of having to overheal 50%. For Flash Heal this is certainly a buff, for Greater Heal it's a bit situational. Crits will hardly have any impact on this talent now and can't say crit was desirable for a Holy Priest even with it.

The decreases on Improved Holy Concentration is HUGE to say the least, this talent is now less than 1/3rd of it's old self. Bit of a shock for a Tier9 talent if you look at what other healing trees get that level.

While it doesn't directly affect us the changes to Blessing of Kings (moved to Tier1 protection) is also a bit inconsistent with the responses we got to change Divine Spirit. Improved Divine Spirit is still down to 6% and it doesn't even stack with Flametongue Totem (baseline ability, doesn't stack with a few other buffs either) which gives 144 spell power, to get that amount of spell power from Imp. DS you would need 2400 Spirit (no that's not a typo). So not only will Imp Divine Spirit be limited to only benefit spirit users it's also vastly inferior for the foreseeable future.

Strange changes overall, and spots where I have been expecting changes I see none (Surge of Light?! Holy Nova? Prayer of Healing?).

The new Divine Hymn looks a lot more interesting with the build-in tranquility, they are clearly going another direction with this spell so this is most likely just the first version of a work in progress (tooltip says 0 yards on both CC and Heal). I'm already very happy they gave up on the 10min cooldown.

The new Divine Hymn looks very nice, indeed.

Not clear what '0 yards' is suppossed to be. This sets priests up for extremely powerful CC-chains (on 3 minute cooldowns) in PvP. Fear / Divine Hymn / Mind Control / Fear---essentially uncounterable by the person being cc'd (after the first fear, that is).

The removal of Fade removing movement impairing effects is very sad, though. Priests will remain, it seems, as the class with the worst mobility in game. I understand the balance of priests having zero mobility, but I have to say it grates on me in arena--and remains my top complaint (behind WotF).

Edit: Is the change to rapture (2.5% of your total mana vs. 2.5% of your healing done) a nerf or a buff? What's a typical amount of max mana at 80, with Mental Strength? Also--the "increasing the amount healed of absorbed increases the mana gained" part is odd. Why not give a coefficient?

Even then--the wording of "any time you heal with X or damage is absorbed" is confusing. If I throw out a power word shield, and a dot ticks 10 times on the PW:S before the shield falls off, do I regenerate 25%+mystery% of my mana?

Makes zero sense unless they're making the improved fade effect baseline, which they should quite frankly.

I agree--but MMO-champion is now listing just one rank of 'fade' in shadow spells, and it does not indicate that it removes movement impairing effects.

Personally--I would be happy to make Fade remove only *physical* effects (and crippling poison, too, I guess).

They made Twin Disciplines only affect instant spells.

It says "up to", and says that it scales based on the amount healed/absorbed, which tells me that it's not always 2.5% per spell. That may refer to overhealing, come to think of it, but the wording is a little strange and I'm not sure what to make of it exactly.

If it scales on overheal, that gives discipline builds a large shove toward Flash Heal, which would restore the same amount of mana in 60% of the time.

Improved Holy Concentration seems to have been nerfed so badly that its value is seriously questionable. Would making that next spell after receiving Holy Concentration instant (instead of the haste buff) be too unbalanced? I agree that the talent in its previous form was probably quite a bit overpowered, but this has just swung too far in the other direction.

They've totally gutted the synergy there was with Rapture/Divine Aegis/Borrowed Time/Renewed Hope etc. Where shields and crits would return a good amount of mana. I'm now getting 175ish (from some quick tests) on a PWS instead of 1000+ and Divine Aegis seems about the same.

Honestly I don't understand why, I'll try to play with it a bit but I can already tell that PWS is no longer at the top of my spell selection and this radically changes the play style I liked so much about disc.

Spiritual Guidance increases spell power (or damage/healing), thus the "up to" wording (as all spell damage effects are subject to coefficients). This implies that there's a "coefficient" to Rapture's healing.

Oh, and for the record, there are several indications that many classes got nerfed in this way, and that there's another build already in the works that will change everything again.

Holy concentration was always to good as it stood. Although amazing I never expected it to survive to live as it stood, however it is still totally worth taking however. Twin disciplines was also just two good for it's position in the tree and had to be toned down some. No other tree in the game has a flat 5% increase to everything in the first rank. I'm glad I always wanted to go holy as disc seems to have been gutted.They really need to figure out what they are doing with disc though as they hit it hard with the nurf bat and as said killed any hope of shield being a viable spell. Best we can hope for is that, as usual, only some of the data made the patch and that they have some other things coming. The change to Borrowed time is interesting as it reduces base GCD by 15% which means that it applies before haste rating thus preventing haste from impacting on the spell as badly. It goes down to 1.275 seconds before haste so is a definite nurf though.

Also they want each spec to bring a certain amount of utility to the table and currently Holy brings nothing and disc sod all so I do expect some more talents and spells to be added that give utility at the cost of some of the power we have been drooling over.

On the other hand the new serendipity is amazingly good and is a superior talent in all ways as it encourages better play. BC Experience shows that most of my tank heals overheal by a smallish amount and would not necessarily have triggered the old version but would be close to a 20% average cost reduction on all affected spells under the new one. If a spell is a 100% used heal I don't mind paying the full mana cost as obviously the heal was needed and if I go out of mana with almost no overheal then the encounter needs to be redesigned as everyone will have the same problem. Holy priest mana regen should still be the best of all the healing classes after these changes.

I think you may be looking too far into it semantics wise, but I could be wrong too- but I'm totally taking this as a way for them to say "this value is is going to end up as a fraction 90% of the time and it will be rounded off" and nothing more (which is the same way I feel about the wording on spiritual guidance, mana shield, etc)... I'm sure we'll see.

Woooahhh big priest gut.... nice thing to wake up to... hey ho... ok lets look at the break down

Disc healing: TD being nerfed is huge, that was one of the few ways of increasing your heals via talents
Rapture synergy: PWS does seem to be weakneded by this, borrowed time VERY slightly buffed however (if my maths is right)
Renewed hjope was already relaint on WS, why weakned it? This was meant to make us want to use PWS

Holy: Empowered - good
IHC - probably needed a nerf, but this was way over the top considering the depth in the talent tree
Serendipity - I say nerf, reason is without downranking, this was your protection...
TOF - nerfed, wierd really, nerf the talent that affects you when the target is almost healthy, and nerf the one when they are nearly dead...

and we were hoping for a buff...